Which Isochronous audio devices tested OK on v3.10
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 664 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK...
    I just wondered which Isochronous audio devices were tested on v3.10?

    There is mention of new support, but for which specific adapters for USB audio hardware? As I don't see any specified.

    I have a C-Media USB Headphone Set audio adapter (which also has a microphone input), the card seems to be found on Poseidon and allocated to the usbaudio.class, but there is no input or output channel allocated to the device, nor are there any other channels allocated that make any difference to getting out of a pair of headphones, speakers or a microphone, no matter which AHI channel I choose.

    Do I need to know more information or will USB Isochronous Audio just not work with this hardware?

    Is there any support for any modern or even the older versions of USB Webcams now that we have Isochronous USB capability?
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  • »05.04.18 - 03:53
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    maurensen
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  • »05.04.18 - 07:24
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    clr666
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  • »05.04.18 - 15:07
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Tcheko
    Posts: 430 from 2003/2/25
    From: France
    We tested a very limited set of USB audio capable devices.

    Behringer UCA 222 and UCA 202 has been tested successfully.

    Those are one of the cheapest USB audio device available for about 30€.

    Funkier USB audio devices like ones that have multiple in/out and fancy onboard features might not be fully supported.

    USB audio support is pretty crude for the time being. AHI isn't really suitable for handling high end audio card that has for example 8 inputs/outputs.

    Recording from external sound card hasn't been extensively tested either and already been reported to fail in some cases.
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  • »06.04.18 - 09:03
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  • »06.04.18 - 10:12
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    NewSense
    Posts: 664 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK...
    Quote:

    Tcheko wrote:
    We tested a very limited set of USB audio capable devices.

    Well that is not good at all.

    You have many users, and probably quite a few Beta-testers with USB audio cards/devices that could have been asked to test their hardware with this new Isochronous transfer implementation before it was released to us all in this state, and more should have been explained about its limitations, and the likelihood of it actually working (NOT), and which specific hardware would/not work with it, to save me, and probably others, from "falling about in the dark".

    This is all really not at all good ... and ... I'm being diplomatic there !

    Quote:

    Tcheko wrote: Behringer UCA 222 and UCA 202 has been tested successfully.

    OK, I'll bear those models in mind.
    Quote:

    Tcheko wrote: Those are one of the cheapest USB audio device available for about 30€.

    As I said already the testing you mention, and hardware you've actually tested, in the 2+ year wait for this release does "leave a lot to be desired", from my standpoint as a user.
    Quote:

    Tcheko wrote: Funkier USB audio devices like ones that have multiple in/out and fancy onboard features might not be fully supported.

    Should definitely have been mentioned when v3.10 was released, and not been found out now, at this late stage, by me having to ask for such information, that really is quite poor, I am sorry to say. Though I am glad that you have responded to this thread, and volunteered this information for us all to digest, even though it's upsetting my "MorphOS digestive system".
    Quote:

    Tcheko wrote: USB audio support is pretty crude for the time being. AHI isn't really suitable for handling high end audio card that has for example 8 inputs/outputs.

    Yet more information we should have had made available to us with the release notes ... don't you think?
    Quote:

    Tcheko wrote: Recording from external sound card hasn't been extensively tested either and already been reported to fail in some cases.

    This list of disasters just goes on, and on, doesn't it! :-(

    Any good news? :-?
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  • »07.04.18 - 02:50
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4629 from 2009/1/28
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    >This list of disasters just goes on, and on, doesn't it! :-(

    If you're interested in any USB audio devices, you might think so.

    But I don't use USB audio doggles under MorphOS or on my PCs as they basically are a pretty poor way to generate sound.
    And "high-end" USB audio devices? Seems like an oxymoron, since USB is not a "high-end" solution for sound.

    So far, you've complained in two threads about this.
    BUT, we've always been told not to buy hardware before specific support for it is announced.
    So why did you assume your device would "just work"?

    If you're that fixated on USB audio, you could just buy one of the devices that have been mentioned by recent posters as functional.

    In the meanwhile, I'll enjoy my VIA Envy24HT based audio card, which we finally have an in-house driver for. Great work guys (no "disaster" here).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.04.18 - 03:05
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 664 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: BUT, we've always been told not to buy hardware before specific support for it is announced.

    Who's the "we've always been told"? If Isochronous support is mentioned as implemented surely it's been tested ... well it seems it wasn't really - so why was it actually released in that state?
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: So why did you assume your device would "just work"?

    Well if an item requires Isochronous USB functionality, and then that functionailty is implemented ... it's a natural reaction to think it will now work with that hardware that requires that feature ... isn't it? Then again, I got caught off-guard, I expected an announcement of this feature to actually have been properly implemented, but instead it just hasn't been, its been "fudged" it seems.
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: If you're that fixated on USB audio, you could just buy one of the devices that have been mentioned by recent posters as functional.

    I'm not fixated on anything - so please don't start slinging "mud", but, are you blaming me for there being a lack of information forthcoming in the release notes, that relates to the poor range of hardware tested, and the superbly inferior likelihood of it actually failing to function ... as I should be able to expect it to work, shouldn't I? Really, Jim.... Really !! Isochronous functionality is partial, it seems, at best, and that is not something to be admired by any of us, and with a lack of information in the release notes, that really is quite poor. You may have Beta-tester access but that does not include many others, as in my situation, so have a little sympathy for those who have been let down by this and other issues with v3.10. I'm sticking with MorphOS, but my spirit has been "dented".
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: In the meanwhile, I'll enjoy my VIA Envy24HT based audio card, which we finally have an in-house driver for. Great work guys (no "disaster" here).

    So, that's nice for you Jim, hey! I'm pleased. 8-D
    However, is your VIA Envy24HT based audio card a PCI Card?
    Also, it's not likely to be added as working Isochronous hardware if it's PCI based, but it's nice that it functions as it should with MorphOS v3.10?
    Anyway, hopefully there will soon be a USB audio hardware list, that currently doesn't exist anywhere, even in the release notes or in the MorphOS Library currently for any supported Isochronous enabled soundcards for the MorphOS v3.10 release! ... but then there should be !

    [ Edited by NewSense 07.04.2018 - 03:47 ]
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  • »07.04.18 - 03:37
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    realstar
    Posts: 286 from 2003/2/24
    From: Canada
    I am particularily interested in recording devices since mac mini,emac,laptops etc. Haven’t been able to record audio until now and I already had 2 G5 machines quit on me. I like to transfer my lps from vinyl to digital format so I am glad to see some progress on this front. If someone has luck with recording devices please post some compatible hardware here. :)
  • »07.04.18 - 03:38
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4629 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    NewSense wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: BUT, we've always been told not to buy hardware before specific support for it is announced.

    Who's the "we've always been told"? If Isochronous support is mentioned as implemented surely it's been tested ... well it seems it wasn't really - so why was it actually released in that state?
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: So why did you assume your device would "just work"?

    Well if an item requires Isochronous USB functionality, and then that functionailty is implemented ... it's a natural reaction to think it will now work with that hardware that requires that feature ... isn't it? Then again, I got caught off-guard, I expected an announcement of this feature to actually have been properly implemented, but instead it just hasn't been, its been "fudged" it seems.
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: If you're that fixated on USB audio, you could just buy one of the devices that have been mentioned by recent posters as functional.

    I'm not fixated on anything - so please don't start slinging "mud", but, are you blaming me for there being a lack of information forthcoming in the release notes, that relates to the poor range of hardware tested, and the superbly inferior likelihood of it actually failing to function ... as I should be able to expect it to work, shouldn't I? Really, Jim.... Really !! Isochronous functionality is partial, it seems, at best, and that is not something to be admired by any of us, and with a lack of information in the release notes, that really is quite poor. You may have Beta-tester access but that does not include many others, as in my situation, so have a little sympathy for those who have been let down by this and other issues with v3.10. I'm sticking with MorphOS, but my spirit has been "dented".
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: In the meanwhile, I'll enjoy my VIA Envy24HT based audio card, which we finally have an in-house driver for. Great work guys (no "disaster" here).

    So, that's nice for you Jim, hey! I'm pleased. 8-D
    However, is your VIA Envy24HT based audio card a PCI Card?
    Also, it's not likely to be added as working Isochronous hardware if it's PCI based, but it's nice that it functions as it should with MorphOS v3.10?
    Anyway, hopefully there will soon be a USB audio hardware list, that currently doesn't exist anywhere, even in the release notes or in the MorphOS Library currently for any supported Isochronous enabled soundcards for the MorphOS v3.10 release! ... but then there should be !


    Actually, I'm not trying to "sling mud", but your assumption that since the interface was supported the device would work is naive.
    And yes, I don't rely on USB sound devices, I thought I made that fairly clear, that there are better solutions for most of our supported system except for the G4 Cube.
    However, if you insist on going that direction, it only makes sense that you buy a device that is known to work.
    You can't expect all isochronous usb devices to function under an alternative operating system.
    And the lack of response you are getting from the developers?
    Maybe they aren't inclined to see this as the 'disaster' you paint it.
    It's a new feature, and I'm sure it will improve with time.
    In the meanwhile, it isn't essential for sound, so you might find yourself in the minority when the deficiencies of the latest revision of MorphOS are tallied up.

    Personally the less than stellar revision to OWB and the continuing lack of productivity software like Office suites are bigger concerns for most of us.

    However, if you really need a USB sound device, I'd be willing to dig up a functioning one for you, if only to end this multiple thread complaint.

    [ Edited by Jim 06.04.2018 - 23:11 ]
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  • »07.04.18 - 04:01
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 664 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: Actually, I'm not trying to "sling mud", but your assumption that since the interface was supported the device would work is naive.

    I assumed that as the functionality of Isochronous transfer had been implemented that most devices that required its functionality would then work, which as there was no other conflicting information in the release notes, I understandably considered that sufficient hardware would have been tested to make it's release useful to many users, and for lots of hardware ... otherwise what's the point?

    Was there any mention in the release notes that it's barely been tested, and that it may not function in even the everyday circumstances as outlined by "Tcheko" in that it "might not be fully supported." or "USB audio support is pretty crude for the time being" or "Recording from external sound card hasn't been extensively tested either and already been reported to fail in some cases." This is not what you would expect to hear about a new feature that has been implemented ... is it? Or, should it not have been mentioned to ensure any use of hardware requiring it was managed as realistically as possible bearing in mind that it might be extremely temperamental as the Developers expected it might well be? That information should have been in the release notes, to manage any user's expectations, but it wasn't!

    My hardware consists of a headphone socket, and a microphone socket, like a skype feature, but I was just going to see if I could merely use it to listen to headphones using the USB audio feature, but even that doesn't work, which is a disappointment, but I can/will have to live with that. However, seeing as Isochronous support was given quite a big "build-up" as basically being one of those modern Operating System must-have features I thought it would be useful for us all, so in that I have been 'duped', been naive, if you want to call it that! As no hardware for its functionality has been mentioned, whether that be USB audio or USB webcams, or anything else !
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: And yes, I don't rely on USB sound devices, I thought I made that fairly clear, that there are better solutions for most of our supported system except for the G4 Cube.

    My audio hardware needs don't currently relate to USB functionality, and that doesn't seem to be going anywhere fast with v3.10 now does it? I do have a Creative Extigy USB soundcard that I was hoping would work with this implementation, but now I'm not so hopeful that it will, but I am hopeful, that from now there will be more information forthcoming from the Development Team, as to what you can expect to be able to realistically do with Isochronous support now that it has been implemented.
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: However, if you insist on going that direction, it only makes sense that you buy a device that is known to work.

    Well, once there is a list others will get to know what USB audio hardware can be used as well, but until then, it's picking through the forum to find out snippets of information that might lead to a "discovery", isn't it? Or, looking in this thread, that I started, because there wasn't sufficient and/or useful information forthcoming about the Isochronous feature at release time.
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: You can't expect all isochronous usb devices to function under an alternative operating system.

    No, it seems not, but better testing might have helped us all in that regard, as there have got to be many Betatesters who have such USB audio hardware that could have been put "into the mix" to get a better overview, prior to v3.10's release.

    [ Edited by NewSense 07.04.2018 - 04:40 ]
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  • »07.04.18 - 04:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2508 from 2003/2/24
    @NewSense

    Isochronous transfers support is an important technological leap forward, AFAIK it’s a first for any Amiga operating system. It’s a door opener for much interesting future developments, like various audio/video applications. Webcams, and indeed external audio cards (and yes Jim, USB audio can *very much* be a high-end solution). But this feature is really about USB, the underlying transfer technology. On top of that there still needs to be development and testing at a higher level for specific applications. Drivers for various makes, chips and features like multiple in/out can of course be developed, tested and evolve over time. This is possible now when the door has been opened. Future development in multimedia streaming over USB is likely going to concern other areas of the OS as well, like AHI for audio and completely new developments for video. Reggae?

    Had the release notes said ”AGP transfer support, enables AGP graphics” - would you have expected *every aspect* of *all* AGP graphics cards to work out of the box because of this? That too would have been about the underlying transfer/bus technology, but drivers for various chips and makes still needs to be developed, tested and be matured over time, which has indeed happened, *including* the creation of higher level stuff in the OS like MorphOS TinyGL, enhanced display in Ambient, etc which makes it more of a complete package.

    I think most people understands this and are happy about the technological leap in the USB field, and I feel that your fury about this is kind of puzzling. Almost like the MorphOS Team has violated you somehow.

    IMHO, only good things can follow. Doesn’t mean that everything has to be done from the start.
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  • »07.04.18 - 11:32
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  • jPV
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    jPV
    Posts: 1400 from 2003/2/24
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    Yeah, TBH I never expected anything would work out of the box with the "isochronous transfers support" feature. For me it sounds that certain technology has been enabled in the USB stack, and then 3rd party drivers and programs could make use of it. I'm actually really surprised that this many audio devices do work with this initial release, and we even have a new program to record audio from them! This is way more than I personally was expecting at this point.
  • »07.04.18 - 12:35
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Travis_H
    Posts: 104 from 2009/12/17
    From: Salem, Oregon,...
    I have a Lexicon Alpha two channel USB mixer I purchased for use with Audio Evolution on Android. Over the years, I've had a difficult time getting it to power up reliably with my devices (USB powered) and the only tablet that would power it directly has become virtually unusable (like most Android tablets).

    Would this be the type of device that has support in 3.10? My MorphOS machine is a Mac Mini with no recording capabilities at the moment.
  • »07.04.18 - 14:03
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4629 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    realstar wrote:
    I am particularily interested in recording devices since mac mini,emac,laptops etc. Haven’t been able to record audio until now and I already had 2 G5 machines quit on me. I like to transfer my lps from vinyl to digital format so I am glad to see some progress on this front. If someone has luck with recording devices please post some compatible hardware here. :)


    Hmm, I hadn't considered that option. Sounds interesting.
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  • »07.04.18 - 15:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2508 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    I still have troubled think of USB as a "high end" solution.


    It goes all the way up to studio quality.
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  • »07.04.18 - 16:42
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    NewSense
    Posts: 664 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote: I still have troubled think of USB as a "high end" solution.

    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote: It goes all the way up to studio quality.

    ... and that's part of my point that Jim sadly just didn't seem to latch onto, or consider as valid, so I just got complained at for complaining that there had been NO information related to Isochronous implementation with this release, other than to say it was part of the release.

    Wheras Jim seems to 'wax-lyrical' about GFX cards in some of the other threads, even though they can't be used in most Apple based MorphOS compatible hardware, and are probably only useful when the hardware base change occurs to 64-bit.

    So, currently that GFX card topic is more irrelevant, for current MorphOS use, than the compatibility of the newly implemented Isochronous USB functionality, and any USB audio hardware that might be supported by it - even up to Studio quality. 8-D
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  • »08.04.18 - 06:50
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Tcheko
    Posts: 430 from 2003/2/25
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    @All.

    USB norm has been developped with this idea in mind: write a single driver (or class) and you can plug *any* compliant device and it will work out of the box.

    USB has a lot of device class definition that can be found there: http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/devclass

    That was the initial idea in a world full of unicorns.

    In real life, things always go a bit off the plan. Manufacturers craft broken devices that do not exactly respect the device class, or worse, implement non standard and proprietary protocol that require custom class driver (nothing wrong there, you're just bound to supported systems by the manufacturer which generaly ends with Win/Apple).

    In case of a slightly broken device, some workaround can be implemented to support this kind of devices in the supporting class. For example, HID class has numerous little tweaks for supporting some special devices (like Wacom Tablets for example) that do use HID but in 'weird' (read not exactly standard) way.

    That's also why many USB devices come with class driver for Windows/Apple... because the device is half broken and requires fix in the class driver land (ie on the operating system) to work correctly.

    In the case of interest here: we tested two simple audio and common devices and they worked as expected in ordinary cases of audio playback. It means that almost every other devices under the USB audio class definition having about the same specifications will work *flawlessly* in case of playback (assuming that the device is fully *compliant* to the usb audio class definition).

    And for listing supported and tested devices in the release note, it is like listing supported and tested keyboards and mice. Pointless.

    Also, keep in mind that AHI is totally outdated in respect of current state of the art in audio land hardware. It is not uncommon to find 8 stereo channels audio card nowadays. Totally unusable with the 4 outputs limit of AHI.

    Improving audio support requires breaking AHI for a better and more modern API. And it won't be done in a weekend hacking session.
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  • »08.04.18 - 09:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9830 from 2003/5/22
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    > when the hardware base change occurs to 64-bit

    ...or rather when the operating system base change occurs to 64-bit x86 aka AMD64, as some of the current MorphOS-supported hardware is already 64-bit (PowerMac G5, AmigaOne X5000).
  • »08.04.18 - 10:37
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Spectre660
    Posts: 176 from 2015/6/30
    It would indeed appear that the PCIe x1 bridging issue still exists in MorphOS 3.10.

    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > there are better solutions for most of our supported system except for the G4 Cube.

    ...and the Sam460cr, assuming the PCIe x1 bridging issue still exists in MorphOS 3.10:


  • »08.04.18 - 16:18
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