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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > All card before the (ie the X1950Pro or X1600) require an Apple rom in order to boot.

    As I said in comment #31, the compatible non-PPC AGP cards should start at X1300 (and also include X1550 and X1900).
  • »10.02.18 - 23:43
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Maybe, however I wouldn't recommend the X1300 and the X1550 is also pretty weak, but they are both available in AGP variants.
    Considering the crippling effect of the PCIe to AGP bridge, even the X1950Pro doesn't come off that good.
    The 3850 or 4650 might have enough GPU power to compensate for the slow transfer rates...maybe.

    In any case, right now I stick by my recommendation of the three cards I mentioned.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.02.18 - 02:58
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The 3850 or 4650 might have enough GPU power to compensate for the slow transfer rates

    ...or the HD4670 :-) Problem is that a faster GPU won‘t bring any advantage in use cases where data isn‘t coming in fast enough to properly utilize the GPU, so I don‘t think GPU speed can compensate for slow transfer rates (whereas more VRAM can, btw).
  • »11.02.18 - 10:08
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > The 3850 or 4650 might have enough GPU power to compensate for the slow transfer rates

    ...or the HD4670 :-) Problem is that a faster GPU won‘t bring any advantage in use cases where data isn‘t coming in fast enough to properly utilize the GPU, so I don‘t think GPU speed can compensate for slow transfer rates (whereas more VRAM can, btw).


    It seems to help in OS4 applications where PCIe cards are used in PCIe to PCI adapters.
    And the difference between an X1300 and an HD4670 is pretty significant.

    Also, I'm not completely negative about the X1300. In PCIe applications it's acceptable. From what I understand, the SAM460 port was initially created using one.

    Of course, what we really need is an affordable PCIe based system that can use higher end gpus without the need of a bridge chip.

    [ Edited by Jim 13.02.2018 - 06:01 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.02.18 - 13:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    koszer
    Posts: 700 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    I've decided to cut all the speculations and acquired a vanilla PC version of Radeon X1900 AGP. I'm going to test it out and see:

    a. if it runs and is properly initialized by MorphOS
    b. how fast it goes and if it's worse or superior than the X850XT I have ATM.

    Stay tuned!
  • »13.02.18 - 10:12
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    I've decided to cut all the speculations and acquired a vanilla PC version of Radeon X1900 AGP. I'm going to test it out and see:

    a. if it runs and is properly initialized by MorphOS
    b. how fast it goes and if it's worse or superior than the X850XT I have ATM.

    Stay tuned!


    a.Shouldn't be a problem, if you have trouble getting it to initialize contact Bigfoot. Usually it's an ID issue.
    b. From what Mark has mentioned, these cards work at a bus rate similar to a standard PCI card, so that could really eat into it's performance.

    Sounds interesting, give us a comparison.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »13.02.18 - 12:29
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 700 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Sounds interesting, give us a comparison.


    As soon as I find that bloody Molex to 6-pin cable I had somewhere here :)
  • »14.02.18 - 05:58
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Sounds interesting, give us a comparison.


    As soon as I find that bloody Molex to 6-pin cable I had somewhere here :)




    Oh yes, I forgot that the AGP models don't provide a connector for auxillary power (something the 11,2 PowerMacs have).
    And you have to split it off the DVD drive molex and route it to the video card.
    Both Mark and Frank have mentioned in the past what a PITA that is.
    It was easier for me when I first used a FireGL X3 in a G4 since there are plenty of molex power connectors and the drives are not as separated.

    I've often thought I'd like to try an R500 based card in a G4, but I think I will wait to see if AGP variants of the R600 or R700 are supported.

    If we don't eventually receive 11,2 support, once I buy an X5000, I'm probably only retain my G4 hardware.

    [ Edited by Jim 14.02.2018 - 05:41 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.02.18 - 10:25
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 700 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Wall, chaps - two news. The good one and the bad one.
    The good one is - nothing blew up when I've connected all the bits and pieces together.
    The bad one is - it doesn't work. The computer boots up and nothing - only a blank screen on the monitor. It doesn't matter which DVI port I plug it in - it stays black.

    Moreover, after a while the system fans start going crazy (the 'wind tunnel mode') which is quite strange. Nevertheless - the X1950 Pro AGP version doesn't work with current MorphOS. At least here.
  • »14.02.18 - 16:25
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Wall, chaps - two news. The good one and the bad one.
    The good one is - nothing blew up when I've connected all the bits and pieces together.
    The bad one is - it doesn't work. The computer boots up and nothing - only a blank screen on the monitor. It doesn't matter which DVI port I plug it in - it stays black.

    Moreover, after a while the system fans start going crazy (the 'wind tunnel mode') which is quite strange. Nevertheless - the X1950 Pro AGP version doesn't work with current MorphOS. At least here.


    It should, as that is exactly the configuration I shipped Mark so that he could work on the R500 drivers. However, since it could be a different brand it may not use the same device ID.
    You ought to contact Bigfoot and hash this out, it should be readily solvable with just a slight modification to the driver.
    But you'll probably have to install the card in a PC to get the info he will need.

    And the black screen is normal until MorphOS boots, as the G5's firmware does not recognize the card.

    That's typical of any MorphOS system with a card that relies on Atom BIOS to function.

    It won't be a issue with the X5000, but if we were to receive PowerMac 11,2 support using any card above the R500s (or any PC cards for that matter) would produce this result.

    [ Edited by Jim 14.02.2018 - 13:30 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.02.18 - 17:10
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 700 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    It should, as that is exactly the configuration I shipped Mark so that he could work on the R500 drivers. However, since it could be a different brand it may not use the same device ID.
    You ought to contact Bigfoot and hash this out, it should be readily solvable with just a slight modification to the driver.
    But you'll probably have to install the card in a PC to get the info he will need.


    Well, I've dropped him an e-mail just yesterday. Let's see if he could help. In the meantime I'll find a PC with an AGP slot and test the hardware ID of this X1950 Pro (as well as X1650 I've tested earlier and it did not work too).
  • »15.02.18 - 12:59
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 700 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Small update: Looking for the device ID I've found an AGP-equipped PC and installed my X1950 Pro, but with no luck - the screen stays black. Maybe it's not MorphOS fault but just another bricked gfx card. I'll investigate some more.
  • »21.02.18 - 06:07
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  • zoi
  • Just looking around
    zoi
    Posts: 6 from 2018/2/11
    From: Prague, Czech ...
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Small update: Looking for the device ID I've found an AGP-equipped PC and installed my X1950 Pro, but with no luck - the screen stays black. Maybe it's not MorphOS fault but just another bricked gfx card. I'll investigate some more.



    what machine are you trying to put this card in?

    It's been over a decade, but from my adventures flashing a radeon 9600 for my powermac3,3 I remember some electrical incompatibility in addition to needing a new ROM. Two pins on the card needed to be either scratched off, or in my case I covered them with electrical tape so that the mod was reversible.

    I found some more recent source about it.
  • »21.02.18 - 08:18
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 700 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    zoi wrote:
    what machine are you trying to put this card in?

    It's been over a decade, but from my adventures flashing a radeon 9600 for my powermac3,3 I remember some electrical incompatibility in addition to needing a new ROM. Two pins on the card needed to be either scratched off, or in my case I covered them with electrical tape so that the mod was reversible.



    Nah, they were both AGP x8 equipped machines (PowerMac G5 and some generic PC with AGP x8 slot on the mobo). In a few days I'll get another X1950 Pro (this time a surely working one) and we will see... again.
  • »21.02.18 - 10:55
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