Peg2 died
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10541 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Interesting thought. I tried to find an PCI HD 5450 back around the time
    > AmiWest 2017 was occuring without luck. They made a few, but they are rare.

    ...and expensive: http://www.vgastore.com/search?q=ap5450 (US-based dealer)
    (Amazon Germany has a used one (CGA-5452PLI) for 50 EUR (61 USD).)

    > Hans de Ruiter has posted a screen shot of a Polaris based card running
    > in a SAM460 system.

    Nice, GCN4 support. MorphOS will have to play serious catch-up :-)
  • »09.02.18 - 00:34
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Tomo
    Posts: 85 from 2003/7/29
    From: Heesch, The Ne...
    Hi everybody,

    sorry for answering so slow but they found out recently that I have cancer in the colon (first stadium, only surgery is enough) and that changes a lot in normal life (much talking with family and... and... )

    My technical knowledge is limited so your advice is really important for me.

    I found this one:
    https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sapphire-Radeon-HD-6450-1GB-Grafik-Karte-/112329859971?clk_rvr_id=1436864503258&rmvSB=true

    Is this one a better choice?

    Regards Tom
  • »09.02.18 - 13:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Tomo wrote:
    Hi everybody,

    sorry for answering so slow but they found out recently that I have cancer in the colon (first stadium, only surgery is enough) and that changes a lot in normal life (much talking with family and... and... )

    My technical knowledge is limited so your advice is really important for me.

    I found this one:
    https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sapphire-Radeon-HD-6450-1GB-Grafik-Karte-/112329859971?clk_rvr_id=1436864503258&rmvSB=true

    Is this one a better choice?

    Regards Tom


    Hey Tom,
    Sorry to hear about that, it runs in my family (my father had the same thing). Hopefully surgery will put it right.
    On new video card support, it's never a good idea to buy hardware until support for it is announced.

    Right now, a PC Radeon X1950Pro AGP card is the highest card supported for the AGP G5.
    But an Apple X800XT would probably perform as well.

    Andreas and I have been speculating about the Radeon HD 5450 (in it's much rarer PCI form) as it is currently supported without acceleration and should receive accelerated drivers in the next update.
    BUT, neither of us knows if the PCI version would work in a G5.

    We are supposed to get R600 support in the next update, which would include the Radeon HD3850 and 4650 which have AGP versions.
    But there is no guarantee that the AGP versions will be supported, and if not these cards will only work in PCIe systems.

    Finally, supported PC video cards do not display Open firmware prompts. So the system display is blank until the OS boots and firmware cannot be accessed without a change in video cards.

    SO, as has been the case for some time, your best solutions for the AGP G5 are still Apple Radeon 9600, 9800, and X800XT video cards.

    And were we to receive G5 PCIe support, an Apple X1900GT would have the benefit of supporting firmware as well.

    Moving forward, the issues involved in using higher end video cards will be complicated, but the performance of the cards currently supported is entirely adequate and they are not hard to find or expensive.

    Unless you really need something more powerful, I'd stick with a Radeon 9600. They can be had for as little as $15, are silent, and perform quite well.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.02.18 - 14:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2606 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    BTW - Hans de Ruiter has posted a screen shot of a Polaris based card running in a SAM460 system. So RX460/560 cards apparently work in a PCIe 1.1 slot. That could mean they are likely to run in the 11,2's 1.0 slots as well.


    It appears that Hans de Ruiter is doing some amazing work on video card drivers for AmigaOS4.1FE, but I had the impression that the type of 3D support he was providing, is different than the type that Mark, aka Bigfoot, Olsen provides for MorphOS. Does anyone else recall the differences between the hardware accelerated 3D video card support currently available for MorphOS3.9, and that provided by the latest drivers for AmigaOS4.1FE, done by Hans de Ruiter?

    I know that the AmigaOS4.1FE drivers use compositing, perhaps more than the MorphOS3.9 video card drivers, but I don't understand fully what the differences in hardware accelerated 3D are currently, between MorphOS3.9 drivers, and the latest video card drivers for AmigaOS4.1FE from Hans de Ruiter? (I'm also not asking this question to open this thread up to those who want to argue which drivers, or which OS is better, I'd just like to know what the differences are, and if possible, why)

    Since both developers appear to be very talented in this area of driver expertise, but may have different approaches on how to best provide hardware accelerated 3D support, I wonder if a collaboration between the two of them is possible, specifically for just video card drivers and hardware accelerated 3D support, for the benefit of both OSes?
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »09.02.18 - 19:59
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 221 from 2015/6/30
    @amigadave

    http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=Warp3D_Nova
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shader

    [ Edited by Spectre660 09.02.2018 - 16:20 ]
  • »09.02.18 - 21:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10541 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> I found this one: [...] Radeon R5 230 [...] PCIe x16 [...]
    >>> Is this one useable for the G5?

    >> Assuming you mean an AGP-based G5 machine,
    >> I‘m not sure how you‘re going to insert a PCIe card ;-)

    > I found this one: [...] Radeon-HD-6450 [...]
    > Is this one a better choice?

    PCIe again. Your G5 machine only has AGP and PCI(-X) slots, so this card won‘t work either.
  • »09.02.18 - 21:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10541 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > R600 support [...] would include the Radeon HD3850 and 4650

    HD4650 is RV730. R600 series ends with HD3870.
  • »09.02.18 - 23:34
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > R600 support [...] would include the Radeon HD3850 and 4650

    HD4650 is RV730. R600 series ends with HD3870.



    Good point. 4000 series is R700. Both 600 and 700 should have overlay support.
    I wasn't really thinking.
    Until we reach the 5000s, we are still in cards that are really too dated to use under recent versions of Windows.
    And there is a nice performance jump between 4000s and 5000s, except curiously for the HD 5450.

    After reading reviews of that, I've lost interest in it as it was compared negatively to the 4550.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.02.18 - 23:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10541 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I had the impression that the type of 3D support he was providing, is different than
    > the type that Mark, aka Bigfoot, Olsen provides for MorphOS. Does anyone else
    > recall the differences between the hardware accelerated 3D video card support
    > currently available for MorphOS3.9, and that provided by the latest drivers for
    > AmigaOS4.1FE, done by Hans de Ruiter? [...] I don't understand fully what the
    > differences in hardware accelerated 3D are currently, between MorphOS3.9
    > drivers, and the latest video card drivers for AmigaOS4.1FE from Hans de Ruiter?

    Warp3D Nova used by OS4 is a more low-level approach than TinyGL used by MorphOS.

    > the AmigaOS4.1FE drivers use compositing

    The drivers offer compositing. The applications/games on top are using compositing.
  • »10.02.18 - 00:17
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Spectre, Andreas...thanks.
    I'm not particularly well informed about OS4 myself, and wouldn't have been able to address David's question.
    I knew they were still developing W3D-like solutions (something our later drivers don't incorporate), but I haven't been paying attention to the details.
    Anyway, at this point the Polaris driver lacks any such acceleration.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.02.18 - 00:53
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Tomo
    Posts: 85 from 2003/7/29
    From: Heesch, The Ne...
    Hi everyone,

    I bought today an XT9600 with GPA slot. I replaced it for the original videocard but no luck. Is there a difference between GPA and AGP?
    Or do I forget something.

    Tom
  • »10.02.18 - 18:18
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Tomo wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I bought today an XT9600 with GPA slot. I replaced it for the original videocard but no luck. Is there a difference between GPA and AGP?
    Or do I forget something.

    Tom


    Let's sum it up:

    1. You've bought a G5 PowerMac with nVidia card (that's supported in OSX but not in MorphOS)
    2. The standard PC Radeon 9250 from your Pegasos won't work (and so will every standard PC Radeon, except for - maybe - the R500 based AGP cards)
    3. You've bought a standard PC Radeon 9600XT AGP and suprisingly enough - it didn't work?

    You need either:

    a. a genuine Apple PPC ROM Radeon AGP gfx card (like the one you've been offered in a PM)
    b. a reflashed (with Apple PPC ROM) standard PC AGP Radeon (you can try to reflash the ones you've got - with any luck you may succeed)
    c. a R500 based standard PC AGP Radeon gfx card (but there's no option to enter Open Firmware or Apple boot menu)
  • »10.02.18 - 18:42
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    Tomo wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I bought today an XT9600 with GPA slot. I replaced it for the original videocard but no luck. Is there a difference between GPA and AGP?
    Or do I forget something.

    Tom


    Let's sum it up:

    1. You've bought a G5 PowerMac with nVidia card (that's supported in OSX but not in MorphOS)
    2. The standard PC Radeon 9250 from your Pegasos won't work (and so will every standard PC Radeon, except for - maybe - the R500 based AGP cards)
    3. You've bought a standard PC Radeon 9600XT AGP and suprisingly enough - it didn't work?

    You need either:

    a. a genuine Apple PPC ROM Radeon AGP gfx card (like the one you've been offered in a PM)
    b. a reflashed (with Apple PPC ROM) standard PC AGP Radeon (you can try to reflash the ones you've got - with any luck you may succeed)
    c. a R500 based standard PC AGP Radeon gfx card (but there's no option to enter Open Firmware or Apple boot menu)


    You definitely don't want a reflashed PC 9600, these almost never work correctly.
    Although the 9250 could be modified, it takes more work than an R300 card.
    And while I do have a flashed 9800 in my G4 that works well, I still don't recommend flashed card to MorphOS users.

    Also I'm pretty sure I specified an Apple 9600, 9800 or X800XT.
    All card before the (ie the X1950Pro or X1600) require an Apple rom in order to boot.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.02.18 - 00:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10541 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > All card before the (ie the X1950Pro or X1600) require an Apple rom in order to boot.

    As I said in comment #31, the compatible non-PPC AGP cards should start at X1300 (and also include X1550 and X1900).
  • »11.02.18 - 00:43
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Maybe, however I wouldn't recommend the X1300 and the X1550 is also pretty weak, but they are both available in AGP variants.
    Considering the crippling effect of the PCIe to AGP bridge, even the X1950Pro doesn't come off that good.
    The 3850 or 4650 might have enough GPU power to compensate for the slow transfer rates...maybe.

    In any case, right now I stick by my recommendation of the three cards I mentioned.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.02.18 - 03:58
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10541 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The 3850 or 4650 might have enough GPU power to compensate for the slow transfer rates

    ...or the HD4670 :-) Problem is that a faster GPU won‘t bring any advantage in use cases where data isn‘t coming in fast enough to properly utilize the GPU, so I don‘t think GPU speed can compensate for slow transfer rates (whereas more VRAM can, btw).
  • »11.02.18 - 11:08
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > The 3850 or 4650 might have enough GPU power to compensate for the slow transfer rates

    ...or the HD4670 :-) Problem is that a faster GPU won‘t bring any advantage in use cases where data isn‘t coming in fast enough to properly utilize the GPU, so I don‘t think GPU speed can compensate for slow transfer rates (whereas more VRAM can, btw).


    It seems to help in OS4 applications where PCIe cards are used in PCIe to PCI adapters.
    And the difference between an X1300 and an HD4670 is pretty significant.

    Also, I'm not completely negative about the X1300. In PCIe applications it's acceptable. From what I understand, the SAM460 port was initially created using one.

    Of course, what we really need is an affordable PCIe based system that can use higher end gpus without the need of a bridge chip.

    [ Edited by Jim 13.02.2018 - 06:01 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.02.18 - 14:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    I've decided to cut all the speculations and acquired a vanilla PC version of Radeon X1900 AGP. I'm going to test it out and see:

    a. if it runs and is properly initialized by MorphOS
    b. how fast it goes and if it's worse or superior than the X850XT I have ATM.

    Stay tuned!
  • »13.02.18 - 11:12
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    I've decided to cut all the speculations and acquired a vanilla PC version of Radeon X1900 AGP. I'm going to test it out and see:

    a. if it runs and is properly initialized by MorphOS
    b. how fast it goes and if it's worse or superior than the X850XT I have ATM.

    Stay tuned!


    a.Shouldn't be a problem, if you have trouble getting it to initialize contact Bigfoot. Usually it's an ID issue.
    b. From what Mark has mentioned, these cards work at a bus rate similar to a standard PCI card, so that could really eat into it's performance.

    Sounds interesting, give us a comparison.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »13.02.18 - 13:29
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Sounds interesting, give us a comparison.


    As soon as I find that bloody Molex to 6-pin cable I had somewhere here :)
  • »14.02.18 - 06:58
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Sounds interesting, give us a comparison.


    As soon as I find that bloody Molex to 6-pin cable I had somewhere here :)




    Oh yes, I forgot that the AGP models don't provide a connector for auxillary power (something the 11,2 PowerMacs have).
    And you have to split it off the DVD drive molex and route it to the video card.
    Both Mark and Frank have mentioned in the past what a PITA that is.
    It was easier for me when I first used a FireGL X3 in a G4 since there are plenty of molex power connectors and the drives are not as separated.

    I've often thought I'd like to try an R500 based card in a G4, but I think I will wait to see if AGP variants of the R600 or R700 are supported.

    If we don't eventually receive 11,2 support, once I buy an X5000, I'm probably only retain my G4 hardware.

    [ Edited by Jim 14.02.2018 - 05:41 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.02.18 - 11:25
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Wall, chaps - two news. The good one and the bad one.
    The good one is - nothing blew up when I've connected all the bits and pieces together.
    The bad one is - it doesn't work. The computer boots up and nothing - only a blank screen on the monitor. It doesn't matter which DVI port I plug it in - it stays black.

    Moreover, after a while the system fans start going crazy (the 'wind tunnel mode') which is quite strange. Nevertheless - the X1950 Pro AGP version doesn't work with current MorphOS. At least here.
  • »14.02.18 - 17:25
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Wall, chaps - two news. The good one and the bad one.
    The good one is - nothing blew up when I've connected all the bits and pieces together.
    The bad one is - it doesn't work. The computer boots up and nothing - only a blank screen on the monitor. It doesn't matter which DVI port I plug it in - it stays black.

    Moreover, after a while the system fans start going crazy (the 'wind tunnel mode') which is quite strange. Nevertheless - the X1950 Pro AGP version doesn't work with current MorphOS. At least here.


    It should, as that is exactly the configuration I shipped Mark so that he could work on the R500 drivers. However, since it could be a different brand it may not use the same device ID.
    You ought to contact Bigfoot and hash this out, it should be readily solvable with just a slight modification to the driver.
    But you'll probably have to install the card in a PC to get the info he will need.

    And the black screen is normal until MorphOS boots, as the G5's firmware does not recognize the card.

    That's typical of any MorphOS system with a card that relies on Atom BIOS to function.

    It won't be a issue with the X5000, but if we were to receive PowerMac 11,2 support using any card above the R500s (or any PC cards for that matter) would produce this result.

    [ Edited by Jim 14.02.2018 - 13:30 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.02.18 - 18:10
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    It should, as that is exactly the configuration I shipped Mark so that he could work on the R500 drivers. However, since it could be a different brand it may not use the same device ID.
    You ought to contact Bigfoot and hash this out, it should be readily solvable with just a slight modification to the driver.
    But you'll probably have to install the card in a PC to get the info he will need.


    Well, I've dropped him an e-mail just yesterday. Let's see if he could help. In the meantime I'll find a PC with an AGP slot and test the hardware ID of this X1950 Pro (as well as X1650 I've tested earlier and it did not work too).
  • »15.02.18 - 13:59
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Small update: Looking for the device ID I've found an AGP-equipped PC and installed my X1950 Pro, but with no luck - the screen stays black. Maybe it's not MorphOS fault but just another bricked gfx card. I'll investigate some more.
  • »21.02.18 - 07:07
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