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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    NewSense wrote:
    I seem to remember fitting a Radeon 9200 PCI Gfx card in my PowerMac G5 to check if it would be useful, and it did at least work, though it obviously wasn't in the AGP slot, so a lot slower, but useful if you've nothing else. That worked for MorphOS as well as for Mac OS X I seem to remember, but as I said, it wouldn't be my first choice anyway.

    I later got a Radeon 9600 PowerMac G5 Mac Apple standard 128MB Gfx card for £1 which is in my system now, and is more straightforward to use.

    Quote:

    Andreas Wolf: With MorphOS and Linux this can be circumvented by using an AtomBIOS-based Radeon (R500+) card.

    Which specific cards are these - specifically by model number, if you know? :-? (haha/huhu - Andreas NOT know something about what he quoted?!)
    Quote:

    Jim: Alternately an X1950Pro or X1600 AGP PC video card could be used

    They still seem to sell for quite a lot, and they don't seem to be that easy to source, or are they?


    I am not sure that I would recommend an R500 card for the G5 as the cards that work rely on a PCIe to AGP bridge chip that slows down the transfer rate.
    Personally, I just used a Radeon 9600 as they are cheap, plentiful, and perform adequately.
    And the R300 driver is fairly mature, so 9600 and 9800 cards work well under MorphOS.
    R400 cards like the X800XT are also an option, but only offer a modest performance boost.

    Anything higher really requires a PCIe expansion slot, and at this point the only supported system with this is the SAM460.
    This will improve when X5000 support is released, but that system has some issues including surprisingly low memory bandwidth.

    Were we to received PowerMac 11,2 support we'd be able to support everything up to the GCN Gen1 cards, making cheap, powerful cards like the HD 7850 an option.

    So far...that idea has been rejected, even though proof of concept ports have been done.
    I have a PCIe Quad G5, but will probably buy an X5000/40 when it is introduced because I want to have a MorphOS PPC system that uses a Radeon HD 5000 or 6000 series card.

    I'll dual boot Linux and MorphOS from this and be satisfied that my final MorphOS PPC system is the best I can get.

    An expensive alternative since 11,2 PowerMac would be a cheaper (and probably more powerful) solution.
    But I'm fanatical enough to go for that.

    Sorry to go so far off course...
    Again, if I were you I would go with an Apple Radeon 9600, 9800, or X800XT.

    [ Edited by Jim 07.02.2018 - 10:38 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.02.18 - 15:36
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 553 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, Gr...
    Jim replied : if I were you I would go with an Apple Radeon 9600, 9800, or X800XT.

    Thanks for the info, that's my thoughts at this stage anyway. I seem to remember having a Radeon 9800 Mac AGP Gfx card tucked away somewhere, but I'm happy enough with the 9600, though I haven't registered my 2.3DP G5 PwrMac for MorphOS as yet, as I'm happy enough with the MacMini and PowerBook I have registered at the moment. ;-)

    That may change as/when (eventually) v3.10 gets released (our wait for v3.10 is really overdue IMHO) :-(
    Mac Mini 1.5GHz, Model 10.2, 64MB VRam, 250GB HDD, 1GB RAM, Airport, Bluetooth, Wireless Keyboard & Mouse, DVD-RW-DL+CD-RW, Iomega MiniMax, Belkin 6 port 3 x Firewire/3 x USB2, MorphOS 3.9, Mac OS X 10.4 & 10.5 & A1138 Powerbook MOS v3.9, Model 5,8 (Also
  • »07.02.18 - 20:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> With MorphOS and Linux this can be circumvented by using an AtomBIOS-based
    >> Radeon (R500+) card.

    > Which specific cards are these - specifically by model number, if you know?

    For instance those mentioned by Jim:

    >> Alternately an X1950Pro or X1600 AGP PC video card could be used
  • »07.02.18 - 22:10
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Were we to received PowerMac 11,2 support we'd be able to support everything
    > up to the GCN Gen1 cards

    Why not GCN2 or newer?
  • »07.02.18 - 22:17
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 553 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, Gr...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> With MorphOS and Linux this can be circumvented by using an AtomBIOS-based Radeon (R500+) card.

    > Which specific cards are these - specifically by model number, if you know?

    For instance those mentioned by Jim:

    >> Alternately an X1950Pro or X1600 AGP PC video card could be used

    So are these TWO cards the ONLY AtomBIOS-based Radeon cards that can be used with MorphOS?

    How can you actually tell that a graphics card is AtomBIOS-based?
    Mac Mini 1.5GHz, Model 10.2, 64MB VRam, 250GB HDD, 1GB RAM, Airport, Bluetooth, Wireless Keyboard & Mouse, DVD-RW-DL+CD-RW, Iomega MiniMax, Belkin 6 port 3 x Firewire/3 x USB2, MorphOS 3.9, Mac OS X 10.4 & 10.5 & A1138 Powerbook MOS v3.9, Model 5,8 (Also
  • »08.02.18 - 01:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > are these TWO cards the ONLY AtomBIOS-based Radeon cards that can be used
    > with MorphOS?

    http://www.morphos-team.net/hardware lists 9 supported AtomBIOS-based R5x0/RV5xx cards (Radeon X1300 to Radeon X1950 Pro).

    > How can you actually tell that a graphics card is AtomBIOS-based?

    AtomBIOS is used on every Radeon graphics card based on R500 or newer GPU series (so Radeon X1300 and newer cards), except the X1900 GT variants with PPC ROM.
  • »08.02.18 - 09:59
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Were we to received PowerMac 11,2 support we'd be able to support everything
    > up to the GCN Gen1 cards

    Why not GCN2 or newer?


    Until I hear from someone that has a Gen2 or higher card working in a G5 I can't say, but I don't see why it should not be possible.

    I find the whole driver support situation frustrating in that the majority of the new drivers Mark is finalizing won't work with almost all of our supported systems.
    No word yet as to whether the R600 AGP models will be supported, but an HD3850/70 or 4650/70 would be pretty cool in a G4 or G5.

    AND, a 6870 would be really cool in an 11,2.

    But...if I can't have that, I will eventually be able to use that card in an X5000 (and possibly a GCN card eventually).
    SO, if anyone questions my reasoning for supporting this platform, it's for the expansion capabilities.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.02.18 - 11:52
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Tomo
    Posts: 83 from 2003/7/29
    From: Heesch, The Ne...
    Hi Everyone,

    I found this one: Videokaart Sapphire AMD Radeon R5 230 2 GB DDR3-RAM PCIe x16 DVI, VGA, HDMI
    Is this one useable for the G5?
    It is not an ATI but AMD. Makes that a difference? Do I really use an ATI?

    https://www.conrad.nl/nl/videokaart-sapphire-amd-radeon-r5-230-2-gb-ddr3-ram-pcie-x16-dvi-vga-hdmi-1193401.html?sc.ref=Search%20Results

    regards, Tom
  • »08.02.18 - 18:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I found this one: [...] Radeon R5 230 [...] PCIe x16 [...]
    > Is this one useable for the G5?

    Assuming you mean an AGP-based G5 machine, I‘m not sure how you‘re going to insert a PCIe card ;-)
  • »08.02.18 - 19:07
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Caicos Pro...Mark's drivers, when released should support that, BUT as Andreas pointed out it won't plug into an AGP G5.

    Terascale 2, GCN...all out of our reach with everything except the SAM460.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.02.18 - 19:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Caicos Pro...Mark's drivers, when released should support that

    HD6450 based on Caicos/RV910 is supported according to http://www.morphos-team.net/hardware, non-accelerated so far.

    > Terascale 2 [...] out of our reach with everything except the SAM460.

    HD5450 based on Cedar/RV810 is supported according to http://www.morphos-team.net/hardware (also non-accelerated) and exists as PCI card. Couldn‘t this work in a G5‘s PCI(-X) slot?
  • »08.02.18 - 20:46
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Caicos Pro...Mark's drivers, when released should support that

    HD6450 based on Caicos/RV910 is supported according to http://www.morphos-team.net/hardware, non-accelerated so far.

    > Terascale 2 [...] out of our reach with everything except the SAM460.

    HD5450 based on Cedar/RV810 is supported according to http://www.morphos-team.net/hardware (also non-accelerated) and exists as PCI card. Couldn‘t this work in a G5‘s PCI(-X) slot?


    Interesting thought. I tried to find an PCI HD 5450 back around the time AmiWest 2017 was occuring without luck.
    They made a few, but they are rare.
    My guess is a 4670 AGP card would perform as well (if we see support for that).
    And the R600 driver will have overlay support.
    I'd still like to try an HD6750 like the card I lent Acil.
    Although the 8490 also looks like a nice low profile option.

    BTW - Hans de Ruiter has posted a screen shot of a Polaris based card running in a SAM460 system. So RX460/560 cards apparently work in a PCIe 1.1 slot. That could mean they are likely to run in the 11,2's 1.0 slots as well.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.02.18 - 23:04
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Interesting thought. I tried to find an PCI HD 5450 back around the time
    > AmiWest 2017 was occuring without luck. They made a few, but they are rare.

    ...and expensive: http://www.vgastore.com/search?q=ap5450 (US-based dealer)
    (Amazon Germany has a used one (CGA-5452PLI) for 50 EUR (61 USD).)

    > Hans de Ruiter has posted a screen shot of a Polaris based card running
    > in a SAM460 system.

    Nice, GCN4 support. MorphOS will have to play serious catch-up :-)
  • »08.02.18 - 23:34
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Tomo
    Posts: 83 from 2003/7/29
    From: Heesch, The Ne...
    Hi everybody,

    sorry for answering so slow but they found out recently that I have cancer in the colon (first stadium, only surgery is enough) and that changes a lot in normal life (much talking with family and... and... )

    My technical knowledge is limited so your advice is really important for me.

    I found this one:
    https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sapphire-Radeon-HD-6450-1GB-Grafik-Karte-/112329859971?clk_rvr_id=1436864503258&rmvSB=true

    Is this one a better choice?

    Regards Tom
  • »09.02.18 - 12:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Tomo wrote:
    Hi everybody,

    sorry for answering so slow but they found out recently that I have cancer in the colon (first stadium, only surgery is enough) and that changes a lot in normal life (much talking with family and... and... )

    My technical knowledge is limited so your advice is really important for me.

    I found this one:
    https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sapphire-Radeon-HD-6450-1GB-Grafik-Karte-/112329859971?clk_rvr_id=1436864503258&rmvSB=true

    Is this one a better choice?

    Regards Tom


    Hey Tom,
    Sorry to hear about that, it runs in my family (my father had the same thing). Hopefully surgery will put it right.
    On new video card support, it's never a good idea to buy hardware until support for it is announced.

    Right now, a PC Radeon X1950Pro AGP card is the highest card supported for the AGP G5.
    But an Apple X800XT would probably perform as well.

    Andreas and I have been speculating about the Radeon HD 5450 (in it's much rarer PCI form) as it is currently supported without acceleration and should receive accelerated drivers in the next update.
    BUT, neither of us knows if the PCI version would work in a G5.

    We are supposed to get R600 support in the next update, which would include the Radeon HD3850 and 4650 which have AGP versions.
    But there is no guarantee that the AGP versions will be supported, and if not these cards will only work in PCIe systems.

    Finally, supported PC video cards do not display Open firmware prompts. So the system display is blank until the OS boots and firmware cannot be accessed without a change in video cards.

    SO, as has been the case for some time, your best solutions for the AGP G5 are still Apple Radeon 9600, 9800, and X800XT video cards.

    And were we to receive G5 PCIe support, an Apple X1900GT would have the benefit of supporting firmware as well.

    Moving forward, the issues involved in using higher end video cards will be complicated, but the performance of the cards currently supported is entirely adequate and they are not hard to find or expensive.

    Unless you really need something more powerful, I'd stick with a Radeon 9600. They can be had for as little as $15, are silent, and perform quite well.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.02.18 - 13:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2482 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    BTW - Hans de Ruiter has posted a screen shot of a Polaris based card running in a SAM460 system. So RX460/560 cards apparently work in a PCIe 1.1 slot. That could mean they are likely to run in the 11,2's 1.0 slots as well.


    It appears that Hans de Ruiter is doing some amazing work on video card drivers for AmigaOS4.1FE, but I had the impression that the type of 3D support he was providing, is different than the type that Mark, aka Bigfoot, Olsen provides for MorphOS. Does anyone else recall the differences between the hardware accelerated 3D video card support currently available for MorphOS3.9, and that provided by the latest drivers for AmigaOS4.1FE, done by Hans de Ruiter?

    I know that the AmigaOS4.1FE drivers use compositing, perhaps more than the MorphOS3.9 video card drivers, but I don't understand fully what the differences in hardware accelerated 3D are currently, between MorphOS3.9 drivers, and the latest video card drivers for AmigaOS4.1FE from Hans de Ruiter? (I'm also not asking this question to open this thread up to those who want to argue which drivers, or which OS is better, I'd just like to know what the differences are, and if possible, why)

    Since both developers appear to be very talented in this area of driver expertise, but may have different approaches on how to best provide hardware accelerated 3D support, I wonder if a collaboration between the two of them is possible, specifically for just video card drivers and hardware accelerated 3D support, for the benefit of both OSes?
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »09.02.18 - 18:59
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 97 from 2015/6/30
    @amigadave

    http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=Warp3D_Nova
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shader

    [ Edited by Spectre660 09.02.2018 - 16:20 ]
  • »09.02.18 - 20:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> I found this one: [...] Radeon R5 230 [...] PCIe x16 [...]
    >>> Is this one useable for the G5?

    >> Assuming you mean an AGP-based G5 machine,
    >> I‘m not sure how you‘re going to insert a PCIe card ;-)

    > I found this one: [...] Radeon-HD-6450 [...]
    > Is this one a better choice?

    PCIe again. Your G5 machine only has AGP and PCI(-X) slots, so this card won‘t work either.
  • »09.02.18 - 20:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > R600 support [...] would include the Radeon HD3850 and 4650

    HD4650 is RV730. R600 series ends with HD3870.
  • »09.02.18 - 22:34
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > R600 support [...] would include the Radeon HD3850 and 4650

    HD4650 is RV730. R600 series ends with HD3870.



    Good point. 4000 series is R700. Both 600 and 700 should have overlay support.
    I wasn't really thinking.
    Until we reach the 5000s, we are still in cards that are really too dated to use under recent versions of Windows.
    And there is a nice performance jump between 4000s and 5000s, except curiously for the HD 5450.

    After reading reviews of that, I've lost interest in it as it was compared negatively to the 4550.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.02.18 - 22:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I had the impression that the type of 3D support he was providing, is different than
    > the type that Mark, aka Bigfoot, Olsen provides for MorphOS. Does anyone else
    > recall the differences between the hardware accelerated 3D video card support
    > currently available for MorphOS3.9, and that provided by the latest drivers for
    > AmigaOS4.1FE, done by Hans de Ruiter? [...] I don't understand fully what the
    > differences in hardware accelerated 3D are currently, between MorphOS3.9
    > drivers, and the latest video card drivers for AmigaOS4.1FE from Hans de Ruiter?

    Warp3D Nova used by OS4 is a more low-level approach than TinyGL used by MorphOS.

    > the AmigaOS4.1FE drivers use compositing

    The drivers offer compositing. The applications/games on top are using compositing.
  • »09.02.18 - 23:17
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Spectre, Andreas...thanks.
    I'm not particularly well informed about OS4 myself, and wouldn't have been able to address David's question.
    I knew they were still developing W3D-like solutions (something our later drivers don't incorporate), but I haven't been paying attention to the details.
    Anyway, at this point the Polaris driver lacks any such acceleration.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.02.18 - 23:53
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Tomo
    Posts: 83 from 2003/7/29
    From: Heesch, The Ne...
    Hi everyone,

    I bought today an XT9600 with GPA slot. I replaced it for the original videocard but no luck. Is there a difference between GPA and AGP?
    Or do I forget something.

    Tom
  • »10.02.18 - 17:18
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 700 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Tomo wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I bought today an XT9600 with GPA slot. I replaced it for the original videocard but no luck. Is there a difference between GPA and AGP?
    Or do I forget something.

    Tom


    Let's sum it up:

    1. You've bought a G5 PowerMac with nVidia card (that's supported in OSX but not in MorphOS)
    2. The standard PC Radeon 9250 from your Pegasos won't work (and so will every standard PC Radeon, except for - maybe - the R500 based AGP cards)
    3. You've bought a standard PC Radeon 9600XT AGP and suprisingly enough - it didn't work?

    You need either:

    a. a genuine Apple PPC ROM Radeon AGP gfx card (like the one you've been offered in a PM)
    b. a reflashed (with Apple PPC ROM) standard PC AGP Radeon (you can try to reflash the ones you've got - with any luck you may succeed)
    c. a R500 based standard PC AGP Radeon gfx card (but there's no option to enter Open Firmware or Apple boot menu)
  • »10.02.18 - 17:42
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4367 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    Tomo wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I bought today an XT9600 with GPA slot. I replaced it for the original videocard but no luck. Is there a difference between GPA and AGP?
    Or do I forget something.

    Tom


    Let's sum it up:

    1. You've bought a G5 PowerMac with nVidia card (that's supported in OSX but not in MorphOS)
    2. The standard PC Radeon 9250 from your Pegasos won't work (and so will every standard PC Radeon, except for - maybe - the R500 based AGP cards)
    3. You've bought a standard PC Radeon 9600XT AGP and suprisingly enough - it didn't work?

    You need either:

    a. a genuine Apple PPC ROM Radeon AGP gfx card (like the one you've been offered in a PM)
    b. a reflashed (with Apple PPC ROM) standard PC AGP Radeon (you can try to reflash the ones you've got - with any luck you may succeed)
    c. a R500 based standard PC AGP Radeon gfx card (but there's no option to enter Open Firmware or Apple boot menu)


    You definitely don't want a reflashed PC 9600, these almost never work correctly.
    Although the 9250 could be modified, it takes more work than an R300 card.
    And while I do have a flashed 9800 in my G4 that works well, I still don't recommend flashed card to MorphOS users.

    Also I'm pretty sure I specified an Apple 9600, 9800 or X800XT.
    All card before the (ie the X1950Pro or X1600) require an Apple rom in order to boot.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.02.18 - 23:12
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