MorphZone

Cloanto sues Hyperion

Intuition

# 801
Paladin of the Pegasos

Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24

From: Nederland

Quote:

KennyR wrote:
Quote:

redrumloa wrote:
Quote:

number6 wrote:
Amount? Again in the U.S. no report by bank unless it exceeds 10,000. And given this is "per transaction", you could just make 2 withdrawals. Heck even through ATM this could be done through multiple withdrawals.

#6

IIRC, the Patriot act requires all withdrawals over $4k to be reported.

I assume it's time-limited too, so a person couldn't just drive to 20 different ATMs or withdraw over a number of days.

But anyway, beyond the shiftiness of it, lending large chunks of cash gives no protection to the lender whatsoever. What if you lend someone £10k and then they claim to have never gotten it... well then, you're up shit creek aren't you? If it never turned up again, I wouldn't be at all shocked if Ben never lost anything at all when "drunk", and had simply pocketed it.

It's all tragic really. Slap "Amiga" as justification and these guys just lost their minds. They bought crap hardware. They trusted con artists. And now we find they're very possibly giving large quantities of unmarked bills away.

(Btw, just noticed that AmigaDocuments has taken my wording here on MorphZone (or has quoted someone who did): "set friend against friend, leaving bitterness and debt as the only things that increase with the years." While I'm flattered, it really doesn't mean that I'm AmigaDocuments. :) I think I know who he is, but I think most people have come to the same conclusion and I'm not telling.)

It could be any of the ASD and OCD riddled "community members". Far too many of them to count. ;)
1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
»29.03.19 - 13:27

number6

# 802
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 480 from 2008/8/10

Quote:

number6 wrote:
Quote:

number6 wrote:

It might make me more unpopular to be objective, but...

Purported email content text overlayed on a podcast from a 3rd party admittedly new to this amiga stuff..
Not to mention I never saw/heard anyone say he had permission to post Mike's mails, although some would assume so.
And 3rd parties making "announcements" for principals?
A-eon purchaser - Hyperion seller. I also would have preferred a statement from one or both of the actual parties involved, as in a joint press release. ha! Nevertheless, the issue is moot now.

Sorry, but this way of issuing "emails" seemed a bit too much of a counter to the Jens and his "these weren't meant for..." affair.

#6

Additionally, now a claimed self imposed deadline has clearly been missed.

Quote:

Mike also said that there will be some announcements quite soon, as in days

*cough*
Although Amiga time never has any relation to real time, we've exceeded "in days" now.

I believe this is related to the boatload of documents filed recently concerning the lawsuit.
Recently, Pacer shortened the list shown, but prior there were many new filings of motions and responses.
If I understand this correctly, there might be a tie as to why the "announcements" have yet to be seen.

In order for the case to proceed and C-A Acquisition Corporation to also gain a court ruling on the preliminary injunction against Hyperion...they must first be enjoined in the current lawsuit or...
file their own.
Unless I'm wrong, the current activity is another stalling tactic to attempt to prevent C-A from enjoining in the lawsuit, thereby delaying plans.

#6

Court ruling despite any information concerning C-A Acquisition Corporation being enjoined or filing their own suit:

Source

#6
»04.04.19 - 14:16

number6

# 803
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 480 from 2008/8/10

@thread

See prior post about C-A Acquisition Corporation.

Court order denying motion to enjoin C-A Acquisition Corporation

Some interesting details on the timeline of the newish company and the Amiga assets.

#6

[ Edited by number6 09.04.2019 - 08:52 ]
»09.04.19 - 13:48

Andreas_Wolf

# 804
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12074 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> Some interesting details on the timeline of the newish company
> and the Amiga assets.

Indeed:

"C-A Acquisition [...] granted Cloanto the right to register and monetize the trademark “AMIGA.” [...] Mike Battilana describes a back and forth negotiating process to acquire Amiga’s intellectual property assets starting in October 2017, and the creation of C-A Acquisition in 2018 at the point in the process when “some encouraging signs” made it seem “that a closing was imminent.”"
»09.04.19 - 14:46

Jim

# 805
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

And the beat goes on.

The problem with Cloanto's entire argument is when these deals were supposed to have occured, and the fact that they involve properties that were already encumbered.

I honestly don't think Mike is going to prevail in this.

At best it will just complicate ownership of legacy AmigaOS.

McEwen should have just given it over to public domain. No one would have legally been able to create an OS4 from that, but advancing 3.1 would have been easier.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»09.04.19 - 20:20

KennyR

# 806
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 872 from 2003/3/4

From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...

Cloanto having the Amiga IP is just a side-show.

The core problem is that Hyperion believe that "the software" in the Amiga Inc settlement means AmigaOS < 4. It's fairly clear even on a cursory read that it doesn't.
»09.04.19 - 20:53

Andreas_Wolf

# 807
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12074 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> Hyperion believe that "the software" in the Amiga Inc settlement
> means AmigaOS < 4.

In fact, they claim to believe that the term "AmigaOS 4" can mean any Hyperion-developed version of AmigaOS, regardless of version number. "The Software" on the other hand is defined as Commodore's AmigaOS 3.1, so Hyperion is correct in this regard.

Edit: corrected nonsense statement

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 10.04.2019 - 08:05 ]
»09.04.19 - 21:52

Jim

# 808
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

KennyR wrote:
Cloanto having the Amiga IP is just a side-show.

The core problem is that Hyperion believe that "the software" in the Amiga Inc settlement means AmigaOS < 4. It's fairly clear even on a cursory read that it doesn't.

Yep, anyone reviewing the settlement would have to agree that it doesn't give Hyperion any ownership rights to OS3.1. Just a license to develop from it.
BUT, does that license allow them to sell products developed from 3.1 other than OS4?
OS5 is mentioned, but versions below OS4 are not.

However, OS3.1.4 is more advanced than OS3.1.

Hyperion's real mistake was bundling OS1.3 with OS4.

Their license makes no mention of OS versions prior to 3.1 what so ever.

Cloanto may not have a right to develop from OS3.1, but they may have some valid claim to all versions up to 3.1, and ownership to the original 3.1 (if not modified or enhanced).

It's going to be a difficult case to rule on.
I'm glad its taking place where it is.
At least the judge will have some experience with a few of the parties.

Pity we can't just combine forces, cooperate and forge ahead.
The rights to essentially everthing are out of Bill McEwen's control, and we're still stuck in a ligative limbo.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»09.04.19 - 22:00

number6

# 809
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 480 from 2008/8/10

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
> Hyperion believe that "the software" in the Amiga Inc settlement means AmigaOS < 4.

In fact, they claim to believe that it can mean any version of AmigaOS, regardless of version number.

The new and improved interpretation so to speak.
Ben wasn't there (cough) at the time. We know for fact that Evert flew there and signed the settlement agreement. He constantly had to correct Ben in the forums about what the agreement meant and what he had signed.

one example of many

#6
»09.04.19 - 22:10

KennyR

# 810
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 872 from 2003/3/4

From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
> Hyperion believe that "the software" in the Amiga Inc settlement means AmigaOS < 4.

In fact, they claim to believe that it can mean any version of AmigaOS, regardless of version number.

I wonder what part of "a perpetual license to develop and market AmigaOS 4" they find unclear.
»09.04.19 - 22:20

Andreas_Wolf

# 811
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12074 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> I wonder what part of "a perpetual license to develop and market
> AmigaOS 4" they find unclear.

The first controversial wording, relating to object code and source code use, is this (emphasis mine):

"the Amiga Parties hereby grant Hyperion [...] an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide and royalty-free, transferable right and Object Code and Source Code license to the Software in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market the Software in any form (including through sublicensing), on any medium [...], through any means (including but not limited to making AmigaOS 4 available to the public via the internet) and for any current or future hardware platform."

...with "the Software" meaning Commodore's AmigaOS 3.1 in *both* occurences, of course. One might suspect that the second occurence was actually meant to say "AmigaOS 4" instead of "the Software" (as it does in Hyperion's subsequent press release). But that's not what it says in the settlement agreement. And even if it did, see below.

The second controversial wording, relating to your quote about trademark use, is this (emphasis mine):

""AmigaOS 4" means the Operating System developed by Hyperion and based in part on the Software, including without limitation the Software Architecture of the Software as described in the Documentation, in any version (irrespective of version numbering, e.g., AmigaOS 5)."

Hyperion claim that this definition of "AmigaOS 4" also applies to what they released as AmigaOS 3.1.4.
»10.04.19 - 00:46

Jim

# 812
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

"the Amiga Parties hereby grant Hyperion [...] an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide and royalty-free, transferable right and Object Code and Source Code license to the Software in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market the Software in any form (including through sublicensing), on any medium [...], through any means (including but not limited to making AmigaOS 4 available...

Note underlined portions.
This would seem to validate the creation of OS3.1.4.

Hyperion has the sole right/license to develop from AmigaOS source code.
That may very well be limited to OS3.1, but outside of compatibility for software that will not run under 3.1, does that really matter?

Again, the only flaw I see is their distribution of 1.3, and even that is a minor transgression.

Mike on the other hand has tried to obtain complete ownership rights to intellectual properties that were already under license.

This lawsuit could really backfire on Cloanto.

Even McEwen's ownership of AmigaOS was in question before the Hyperion/Amiga Inc. settlement, but once that took place it was recognized that Amiga Inc. was the property owner, and Hyperion was granted the SOLE license to develop from the property.

Cloanto, another former licensee, in purchasing these assets after said license was granted is still under obligation to honor the terms of the prior settlement.

[ Edited by Jim 10.04.2019 - 12:15 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»10.04.19 - 15:05

redrumloa

# 813
Paladin of the Pegasos

Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13

Quote:

Jim wrote:

Pity we can't just combine forces, cooperate and forge ahead.
The rights to essentially everthing are out of Bill McEwen's control, and we're still stuck in a ligative limbo.

Unfortunately McBill wasn't the worst player in the space, that would be Hermans. Until Hermans is gone, there cannot be any sort of peace. Problem is, Hermans would not leave the space without creating a scorched earth trail behind him.
»10.04.19 - 16:24

Jim

# 814
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

redrumloa wrote:
Quote:

Jim wrote:

Pity we can't just combine forces, cooperate and forge ahead.
The rights to essentially everthing are out of Bill McEwen's control, and we're still stuck in a ligative limbo.

Unfortunately McBill wasn't the worst player in the space, that would be Hermans. Until Hermans is gone, there cannot be any sort of peace. Problem is, Hermans would not leave the space without creating a scorched earth trail behind him.

Yeah, I've exchanged messages with Hermans. He can be charming when he chooses to, but he isn't consistent in his statements.
Funny, after my previous statement about my own inclusion of qualifiers, you'd think Hermns, as a lawyer, would use more himself.

The thing is, Cloanto won't secure OS4 via this lawsuit, and Hermans won't sell the IP without an exorbitant payment.

So OS4 stagnates, and we see most OS4 development occuring outside of Hyperion (i.e.- Aeon's packages, Bigfoot's network driver, etc.).

If a real savior/investor could be found for this platform, I'd support the re-integration of all NG OS' into a real Amiga OS5.

Again, a pipe dream. But...a new Power9 based Amiga, with SMP, memory protection, and other modern features? That could pull us out of the hobbyist realm.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»10.04.19 - 17:24

KennyR

# 815
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 872 from 2003/3/4

From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...

Sorry, it's as clear as day from the wording that "the Software" and "AmigaOS 4" are two different things. If they weren't, there would be no need to keep reverting between one and the other, and simply call "AmigaOS 4" the software consistently and definite it clearly in the index.

As for claiming 3.1.4 wouldn't fall under AmigaOS 4 because it has some "backported" code - it's like putting your own sprinkles on someone's cake in the workplace fridge and claiming it was yours. Not gonna wash.
»10.04.19 - 17:29

Andreas_Wolf

# 816
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12074 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> it's as clear as day from the wording that "the Software"
> and "AmigaOS 4" are two different things.

Yes, as acknowledged by Hyperion, "the Software" means Commodore's AmigaOS 3.1, whereas "AmigaOS 4" is, according to Hyperion, defined as anything Hyperion develops using "the Software" as base.

> If they weren't [...]

Nobody says they aren't.

> As for claiming 3.1.4 wouldn't fall under AmigaOS 4

At least Hyperion doesn't claim such, quite to the contrary.

> because it has some "backported" code

I don't think it's about this. It's more about the power of definition, i.e. defining terms consistently within a certain framework (like the settlement agreement) when the definiendum has a different widely accepted definiens outside this framework. To understand this concept, it could help to re-read the settlement agreement after replacing the definiendum "AmigaOS 4" by a random character string while keeping the definiens :-)
»10.04.19 - 18:18

KennyR

# 817
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 872 from 2003/3/4

From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...

The settlement was created to allow both companies to do business. Hyperion could keep making AmigaOS 4 without Amiga Inc's interference, but in return Hyperion would not get rights to what they consistently had not paid for, i.e. classic AmigaOS, Amiga hardware exclusivity. They developed OS4 themselves. Other versions of AmigaOS simply do not belong to them. They did not pay for them in any way.

This was the understanding of all parties at the time, including the judge. Hyperion's trying to unravel it in their favour by using uncertain wording, just because AmigaOS 4 flatlined while classic blossomed again, is sure to seen with the dimmest of dim views by the court.

[ Edited by KennyR 10.04.2019 - 18:31 ]
»10.04.19 - 18:30

Andreas_Wolf

# 818
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12074 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> The settlement was created to allow both companies to do business.
> Hyperion could keep making AmigaOS 4 without Amiga Inc's interference,
> but in return Hyperion would not get rights to what they consistently had
> not paid for, i.e. classic AmigaOS, Amiga hardware exclusivity. [...] This
> was the understanding of all parties at the time, including the judge.
> Hyperion's trying to unravel it in their favour by using uncertain wording [...]
> is sure to seen with the dimmest of dim views by the court.

Yes, the final verdict, if any, will be a choice between favouring the wording of the agreement or favouring its perceived "spirit", that much is clear, and Cloanto and the Amiga parties are quite aware of this (hence their request to void the settlement agreement if the wording is found to be against the "spirit").

> They developed OS4 themselves. Other versions of AmigaOS simply do not belong to them.

On the base of Olsen's AmigaOS 3.1 branch (which in turn is based on Commodore's AmigaOS 3.1), Hyperion developed OS4 as much as what they sell as AmigaOS 3.1.4. I don't see the difference in this regard.
»10.04.19 - 20:07

outlawal2

# 819
Butterfly

Posts: 87 from 2009/5/6

And these points of view are exactly why this has gone to court once again. (Well that and the fact that the companies in question are basically douchebags to each other...

As usual a sad state of affairs in the Amiga World. So par for the course..
"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." Quote from Rambo...
»10.04.19 - 20:10

amigadave

# 820
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2794 from 2006/3/21

From: Northern Calif...

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
Yes, the final verdict, if any, will be a choice between favouring the wording of the agreement or favouring its perceived "spirit", that much is clear, and Cloanto and the Amiga parties are quite aware of this (hence their request to void the settlement agreement if the wording is found to be against the "spirit".

This is the part of the whole court action that I find most interesting. What will happen if Cloanto is successful in getting the "settlement agreement" voided?

I'm guessing that Hyperion will lose everything that they covet so badly. I also think that such an outcome would be the best for all Amiga users, and a chance for a fresh start, with new thinking behind the helm, so to speak.

Edit: I also think it will be "Justice, or Karma", considering how Ben Hermans acquired AmigaOS4 and the rights to develop it, but maybe I'm just getting sentimental in my old age.

[ Edited by amigadave 10.04.2019 - 12:53 ]
MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
»10.04.19 - 20:51

redrumloa

# 821
Paladin of the Pegasos

Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:

On the base of Olsen's AmigaOS 3.1 branch (which in turn is based on Commodore's AmigaOS 3.1), Hyperion developed OS4 as much as what they sell as AmigaOS 3.1.4. I don't see the difference in this regard.

You disagree with HYPErion MP (at that time) then?
»10.04.19 - 21:32

Andreas_Wolf

# 822
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12074 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

>> On the base of Olsen's AmigaOS 3.1 branch (which in turn is based on
>> Commodore's AmigaOS 3.1), Hyperion developed OS4 as much as what
>> they sell as AmigaOS 3.1.4. I don't see the difference in this regard.

> You disagree with HYPErion MP (at that time) then?

How does "HYPErion MP" disagree with what you quoted from me above?
»10.04.19 - 22:11

KennyR

# 823
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 872 from 2003/3/4

From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...

Quote:

outlawal2 wrote:
And these points of view are exactly why this has gone to court once again. (Well that and the fact that the companies in question are basically douchebags to each other...

As usual a sad state of affairs in the Amiga World. So par for the course..

Well, I don't know. Most of the companies involved have gone to great lengths to avoid lawsuits causing damage to each other.

What A-Eon has (allegedly) let Hyperion away with would chill your blood. But Trevor doesn't want to kill them. He could, if he simply told the Belgian authorities he wanted to call in his debt - instant bankruptcy. But he doesn't.

And then there's Cloanto, who are somehow being projected as the villain of this piece. They did not sue when Hyperion sold rights Cloanto owned to Manomio, which subsequently was responsible for the loss of that company. They threatened, they complained, but they didn't sue.

Even Amiga Inc/Amino, long everyone's least favourite money laundering outfit, have finally sold off the Amiga IP - at least in theory. And not even for the ridiculous sums they demanded earlier on, one would assume.

Hyperion being the obvious exception in this. They've pretty much done bad things to everyone.
»11.04.19 - 22:10

Jim

# 824
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

KennyR wrote:
Sorry, it's as clear as day from the wording that "the Software" and "AmigaOS 4" are two different things. If they weren't, there would be no need to keep reverting between one and the other, and simply call "AmigaOS 4" the software consistently and definite it clearly in the index.

As for claiming 3.1.4 wouldn't fall under AmigaOS 4 because it has some "backported" code - it's like putting your own sprinkles on someone's cake in the workplace fridge and claiming it was yours. Not gonna wash.

No, "the software" referenced is OS3.1. That is clear if you read the part I quoted. And it further states that they are not limited in using the source code and can produce other products, resell it, or sub-license it.
OS4 is mentioned in the settlement, but then so is the non-existant OS5.
The right to develop from 3.1 does not appear to be restricted as you seem to believe.
Its not limited to a soecific revision number, or a specific ISA.
It appears, from my reading of the entire document, that Hyperion is the sole licensee allowed to develop AmigaOS, at least from 3.1 and its source code.

Many of you might not like that, but the wording seems fairly clear.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»12.04.19 - 03:25

KennyR

# 825
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 872 from 2003/3/4

From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...

Quote:

Jim wrote:
No, "the software" referenced is OS3.1. That is clear if you read the part I quoted."

AmigaOS 3.1 or any other version of AmigaOS (except 4) is not mentioned in the whole settlement. That would be clear.

It is not, and so in no way clear.

Edit: And remember the issues preceding the case - it was AmigaOS 4 that Amiga Inc claimed to have paid Hyperion for but not received, and AmigaOS 4 Classic (which Amiga Inc said was illegal), both of which precipitated the lawsuit in the first place.

[ Edited by KennyR 12.04.2019 - 19:31 ]
»12.04.19 - 19:25