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Sure minor upgrades to a 1977 design, not something in any way as weird as the 2 CPU, 2 GPU 3 mode C128.

Apple kinda did their 128 with AppleIII a few year earlier which failed.


C128 designed as an C64+ would have made sense, maybe in the same way that Amstrad did the 6128 and later the 6128+ as a replacement/upgrade for the 464 and 664.

C64 was not designed for banking memory and Amstrads 464 can be quite easily upgraded from 64 to 128KB. From user perspective i prefer my C=128DCR over my C64 due to the integrated C1571 and burst mode with C1581. Integrated PSU in DCR is also more reliable than old C64 psu (door stop).

I'll try to tackle this from the perspective of someone who has the C128 (128Dcr to be specific) as my favorite computer of all time.

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That's entirely subjective and you are entitled to that opinion. I'm just trying to make the objective point that unlike C='s true failures, which there were many, C128 was not one of them. They saw a market opportunity, a niche to fill, and it worked for this model.

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The first part about the Z80 and CP/M mode is hard to quantify. Granted, your average home user picking up a 128 as their first computer would be clueless about CP/M, and yes CP/M was on death row by this point. OTOH there were users back then who took advantage of the CP/M mode. Its hard to say if it helped sales in any measurable way.

I will say it was not a totally worthless addition. CP/M on the 128 did have some strong points compared to its competitors in the same market segment. Other 8bit systems capable of running CP/M had major drawbacks, such as the C64 with CP/M cart, Apple II with Z80 card and even the Coleco Adam. None of them could take a CP/M floppy from a traditional dedicated CP/M system and run it, or read the data. I've read that some businesses actually used Apple II with Z80 cards in a business setting, even though getting software to execute and data on to the Apple would be a major head ache, especially back then. The 128 with 1571 (and 1581 too) could read and write practically any native CP/M disk (minus 8" obviously). I've personally taken disks like WordStar for Kaypro, put it in the 1571 and ran directly. I've taken Dbase II for Televideo, put in 1571 and run it.

So yeah, CP/M mode is an arguable point. But even if it wasn't a major selling point by 1985, it didn't degrade the system just being there.

As for the 2nd part above, updated chips, it does in a way. 64 mode is basically the same chips. The only exceptions are the SID Chip in some models (8580 SID), which is just slightly different, and the 2 MHz-capable 8502 variant. The CPU could only run full 2Mhz in 64 mode by turning off the video output. However, it could run 2mhz "in the borders" with video still active which gave a performance boost of something like 15%. There were indeed some commercial games that took advantage of the extra speed. its minor you could argue, but there is a difference.

Outside of 64 mode and in 128 mode with 80 column video (separate RGBi output) is a different story. It had its own video chip, the VDC and obviously an extra 64K of base RAM. The 128 could DMA memory between banks. Commodore dropped the ball a little by advertising the 80 Column mode (VDC) was text only. However software developers and hobbyists quickly discovered that not to be the case. The VDC had enormous gfx capability. The most significant use of the 80 column mode was Geos 128 Operating System. Geos 128 was heads and shoulders over Geos 64 and was very widely used. In 80 column mode you also got the full 2Mhz CPU speed.

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When the A500 came out, the C128 was still selling strong. This is what I think you are missing here. The cost of a C128 with 1571 was still less than half of an A500. My first Amiga was an A500. Without getting deep in my personal story, I was underwhelmed by the A500 in many ways. Yes I grew to love the Amiga, but a reasonable 128 setup verses an Amiga 500 setup in ~87-89, the 128 easily won IMO. It was far cheaper too.

Also as mentioned above, the 128 did have expanded gfx capabilities. Those were vastly underused outside of Geos 128, Basic 8 and a few other programs. Here are a couple examples.

VDC Mode Mania

VDC Demo (On real hardware, uploaded by me almost a decade ago. The choppiness in the video was due to YT compression, it was not present on the real hardware or my recording).

Gunfright 128/VDC version (We are starting to get a number of new game ports that take advantage the 128/VDC mode. C= should have advertised this feature).

Hopefully not TLDR. I am a C128 fanboy

-Edit-
I spent a good part of my teen years online using BBSes. I was almost always in 128/80 column mode using BobsTerm 128, and later Desterm. There was no comparing with terminal programs in 64 mode. 40 column just didn't cut it for PC based BBSes, and "soft80" was hard on the eyes. You also get faster rs232 speeds in 128/80 column fast mode (2mhz).

[ Edited by redrumloa 22.03.2019 - 14:33 ]

>I've personally taken disks like WordStar for Kaypro, put it in the 1571 and ran directly.
> I've taken Dbase II for Televideo, put in 1571 and run it.

Aka, no point writing serious C128 native SW

> 80 column video (separate RGBi output)

Sounds as bad as the AtariST monitor situation

>The cost of a C128 with 1571 was still less than half of an A500.

The cost (to build) or the price (C= asked) ?
I'd guess it's the 2nd as C= had no prob slashing the A500*s price by 60% over time with no other cost savings apart from RAM (and maybe an even sweeter deal on those 7MHz 68000)

I'd say the A300/600 is a similar case, supposed to be a cheaper A500, turned out more expensive to build.
To incompatible for games (ECS,Kick2.0 missing numeric KBD) to weak for serious use.

Still it sold in numbers (below cost) and sure some just love the little bugger today.

I had and used GEOS 128. It was good. It was no match for the AmigaOS. The 128D costed as much to make as an A500 and slowed the upgrades to the Amiga. I got my first Amiga in 1993. It was an A1200. Commodore should have cut production of its 8 bit line sooner.

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Outside of games, 128 native mode was very well supported.

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The Commodore and Amiga branded monitors such as 1084, 2002 etc etc had both composite and RGB modes. It was a simple witch on the front. I had a 2002 back in the day. Switching was no big hassle. Since there was 2 video outputs, a (very) small amount of software too advantage of this. You could actual use dual displays on a 128 back in the 80s.

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So how did they get the intellectually challenged sorceress to adhere to the device?

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Bit of a problem then that the C128/C64 were almost entirely seen as games computers by the late 80s. Which was one of Commodore's main problems - not knowing it's market. It lived off some early successes for years, spent next to nothing on R&D, and didn't know how to compete even if they could. By the 90s they were beyond all recovery.

If I can steer things back on point, the much-maligned Mehdi Ali came to Commodore when it was already a basket-case heading for oblivion. He gleefully asset-stripped it of course, but was not responsible for its downfall (although traditionally Commodore fanboys, as fanboys do, like to look for easy answers that don't impinge on the rose-tinted views of their heroes).

Ben Hermans, on the other hand, came to a platform that was commercially almost dead, but had a thriving retro community. Within six years, his divisive tactics had pretty much turned the tens of thousands of people into dozens. It goes beyond even failed business plans - he couldn't have done much more damage if he had a secret grudge and had intentionally squandered a fortune in trying to destroy it.

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Ben Hermans isn't exactly ignoring Commodore though, so don't worry:
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Source

I've already written many times about IAmiga/Manomio and the Hyperion and Cinemaware connection, but I found the above interesting, considering the source of this claim.

#6

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Ah yes, the Amazing Settlement Agreement. Not only does it give Hyperion the apparent right over OS3.x and below, the boingball, and the Amiga and AmigaOS names, but also Commodore IP too.

Well obviously only a world-class IP lawyer with connections to NASA, NATO and the European Union could make "The Software" literally apply to anything that is software.

> I found the above interesting, considering the source of this claim.

It's essentially the same he already wrote on his website before.

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Who is the source?

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Actually, he is probably an out-of-the-world class IP laywer, possible connections to the planet Krypton, his superpower is indeed making it "possible" to shift anything that other people owns. Maybe he will bundle Windows and Mac OS as well? And some games from Rockstar? And the Coca Cola logotype? Anything is possible with his IP superpowers...

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Thank you for that.

I'm afraid that the Manomio story has great need of a more complete timeline to put all the facts in order. I'm not sure anyone is willing to take that on.
Manomio's licensor was, of course, the same licensor to CommodoreUSA. Both licenses were terminated after the bankruptcy of Asiarim's licensing arm and subsequent lawsuit against Asiarim.
Lawsuit Source
Also detailed here

The Amiga side is more clear.
Hyperion side mentions only Cinemaware
but
clearly shows Manomio involved
Why did not Hyperion mention Manomio unless there was a big problem?
As I recall Cinemaware ran into problems over this arrangement as well.

#6

@thread

For what it's worth, Amiga Documents 3.0.1 is now available:

Source

The new information seems to be the "bullet points" added towards the bottom of the linked section.

#6

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The problem was IMO not the 128 as such.
But the wrong decisions of the managers in charge at Commodore.
The number of projects were just too many and many were not dropped in favour of Amiga (i.e. the 8 bitters) which resulted in Amiga advanced and developed much too slow against the PC and Apple competition.

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Commodore mismanaged themselves terribly. What they did with the Amiga was ridiculous in hindsight. They essentially developed 2 different Amiga computers over its lifetime, and spent the rest of the time repackaging each one in new clothes, trying to pass it off as something new. The number of go-nowhere project too is true.

Not dropping the 8bit line? That I certainly don't agree. The 8bit line was NOT cannibalizing sales from the 16/32 bit Amiga. They targeted different markets. 64/128 were the inexpensive budget computers, Amiga was for the professional or power user. Even the A500 (which was a success) was vastly more expensive. Then if you try anything more than simple single disk games, you find how lacking it really is and how jaw-dropping expensive expansions were. The A600 was a joke by the time it came out, the PC Clone market was obviously taking over every segment.

The 128 only sold from 85-89, but the C64 kept selling right up until C='s bankruptcy. To cut that off would have hastened C='s demise. Look at Apple. Despite having the Mac, it continued to sell the Apple II up until 1993. The Tandy Coco sold until 1991, despite being a PC clone seller. ATari 8bit home computers sold through 92, despite Atari having the ST. Etc Etc Etc. Right up until the writing was on the wall about PC clones taking over the world around 93, companies all continued to offer both an 8bit line and a 16/32bit line.

-Edit-
The C128 was only available for 4 years, yet in those 4 years it outsold all Apple II models combined. The Apple II was available for 16 years (77-93).

[ Edited by redrumloa 25.03.2019 - 11:59 ]

This side-thread is a bit off topic I guess.

But yes, actually you are right.
The 8 bitters just sold. AFAIK there were no projects considered apart from the C65.
So the main mismanagement happened within the Amiga projects.

Manfred

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Simon Archer physically gave Ben Hermans 10,000 UK pounds in cash, and he got drunk and lost it?

Even given the ludicrousness of going on in the Amiga sphere, I don't know if I could possibly believe any of that. First, 10 grand is a lot of money. I mean, like physically. You'd need a suitcase or a large bag.

Secondly, it's actually really difficult to get your hands on that much cash at once. ATMs will certainly not spit it out (there's a daily limit), and going to the bank will result in a lot of questions.

Thirdly, anyone who handles 10 grand is either a security guard or a moron. People will literally kill for that much money, and there's no traceability. In a bank, everyone can see you get the money as the cashier doles it out. I'd be surprised if you got far without someone bashing your head in and running away with it.

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Here in the US post 9/11 and the (piece of sh**) Patriot Act, just carrying that much actual cash would get you detained by police. They'd confiscate the cash and hold you at least for hours questioning you. It's not right, but that's the way it is. Just simply withdrawing more than $4,000 requires the bank filing forms under The Patriot Act. 10,000 in UK pounds is worth more than 10k in USD. You don't have The (POS) Patriot Act, but I'm sure there would be similar suspicion.

10k Pounds in cash does sound suspicious. If it really did happen and Hermans (cough cough) "lost it", it would make Hermans even skeezier than *I* would have even thought.

* No, the 10k must be in cash! Unmarked bills!
* Ooops, I got drunk and lost it! Sucks to be you!

Well, Patriot Act aside, most country's police forces will stop you if you're seen to be carrying that much cash around. There really aren't many law-abiding reasons.

If it's true, then I'm guessing the case here wasn't law abiding either, and they were trying to avoid tax. That's as almost as serious in the UK as it is in the US, and can result in a jail sentence.

Edit: For my very first job after uni, I was paid for a body of work by cheque. It was a similar amount of money. I had to declare it for tax. I didn't have to pay any because my yearly income was below the threshold, but I had to declare it. Many dodgy "self-employed" in the UK will ask for cash because they know they can simply stick it in the bank and the taxman won't see it.

[ Edited by KennyR 27.03.2019 - 21:32 ]

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Suitcase? I don't know about U.K., but in the U.S. this would be short stack of 100 USD bills all of 1 inch high.
Ben lost the money? It says he left it in cab, but someone else might have instantly grabbed it, right?
No mention of whether the money was paid back to the lender or if it was, by whom either.
Amount? Again in the U.S. no report by bank unless it exceeds 10,000. And given this is "per transaction", you could just make 2 withdrawals. Heck even through ATM this could be done through multiple withdrawals.

#6

A £100 note (and above) are very rare denominations. I've lived all four decades of my life in the UK and never saw one.

I've only seen two £50 notes in that time. The banks used to give them out when you withdrew a lot in cash, but have been iffy about that in later years because nobody trusts them - common among forgeries, apparently.

No, what is most likely they had is £20 notes - resulting in 500 of them. Around half a kilogram in notes - too thick to be a wad.

Edit: Maybe someone from down south could confirm, but £50/£100 are likely to be a bit more common down south, especially around London where everything is a ripoff. But certainly they're rare in Scotland.

[ Edited by KennyR 28.03.2019 - 13:20 ]

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IIRC, the Patriot act requires all withdrawals over $4k to be reported.

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I assume it's time-limited too, so a person couldn't just drive to 20 different ATMs or withdraw over a number of days.

But anyway, beyond the shiftiness of it, lending large chunks of cash gives no protection to the lender whatsoever. What if you lend someone £10k and then they claim to have never gotten it... well then, you're up shit creek aren't you? If it never turned up again, I wouldn't be at all shocked if Ben never lost anything at all when "drunk", and had simply pocketed it.

It's all tragic really. Slap "Amiga" as justification and these guys just lost their minds. They bought crap hardware. They trusted con artists. And now we find they're very possibly giving large quantities of unmarked bills away.

(Btw, just noticed that AmigaDocuments has taken my wording here on MorphZone (or has quoted someone who did): "set friend against friend, leaving bitterness and debt as the only things that increase with the years." While I'm flattered, it really doesn't mean that I'm AmigaDocuments. :) I think I know who he is, but I think most people have come to the same conclusion and I'm not telling.)

[ Edited by KennyR 28.03.2019 - 22:43 ]