Cloanto sues Hyperion
  • Moderator
    Senex
    Posts: 495 from 2003/2/17
    From: Hannover / Ger...
    @number6:

    News-item at amiga-news.de - german-only for now, but in the text there is a link to our copy of the actual document.
  • »28.12.18 - 19:36
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 583 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    @thread

    MOTION for Preliminary Injunction (item #45)
    As expected.

    #6


    Cloanto run a business on selling classic ROMs and software which Hyperion are muscling in on, making an injunction request a foregone conclusion. Only surprise here is that Cloanto didn't take action a lot sooner. Mike seems to have relied upon good will for years - always a mistake when dealing with Hyperion.
  • »28.12.18 - 20:43
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2556 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Senex wrote:
    @number6:

    News-item at amiga-news.de - german-only for now, but in the text there is a link to our copy of the actual document.


    A very well written document. One after another, all facts are lined up and backed with solid evidence. This is a crystal clear case. It doesn’t get more obvious than this.

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma 29.12.2018 - 00:23 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »29.12.18 - 00:21
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10373 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > A very well written document. One after another, all
    > facts are lined up and backed with solid evidence.

    ...except at least one (page 8):

    "In 2011, Hyperion packaged Amiga OS 3.1 with AmigaOS 4, failing to advertise that fact"

    From Hyperion's December 2011 press release:

    "Introducing the new Emulation drawer with official AmigaOS 3.x ROMs and Workbench files. AmigaOS ROMs are provided for all classic Amiga models and the CD32 platform."
  • »31.12.18 - 13:45
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    redrumloa
    Posts: 1320 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:

    A very well written document. One after another, all facts are lined up and backed with solid evidence. This is a crystal clear case. It doesn’t get more obvious than this.


    Indeed. HYPErion are bald-faced pirates. I hope the court orders damages that will bankrupt the whole lot of them.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 01.01.2019 - 16:32 ]
  • »01.01.19 - 22:31
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4818 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:

    A very well written document. One after another, all facts are lined up and backed with solid evidence. This is a crystal clear case. It doesn’t get more obvious than this.


    Indeed. HYPErion are bald-faced pirates. I hope the court orders damages that will bankrupt the whole lot of them.


    One thing is for certain, even if they do have the right to vend a modified version of 3.1, including 1.3 with OS4 is clearly not within the rights granted to them in their settlement.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.01.19 - 00:07
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 583 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    One thing is for certain, even if they do have the right to vend a modified version of 3.1, including 1.3 with OS4 is clearly not within the rights granted to them in their settlement.



    Hyperion's extremely weak claim is that they have the rights to "AmigaOS" and therefore it doesn't matter about the version number, they have the worldwide exclusive licence.

    Even if I knew nothing about Hyperion or Amiga at all, if I had read that settlement I'd wonder how Hyperion could ever have come to that conclusion. It's not the clearest of documents and seems to get confused about "the Software" but what Hyperion are claiming is out of the ballpark. It's like reading Ayn Rand and then coming to the conclusion that Rand wanted a communist government.

    And yet they've claimed this from the beginning - first week after the settlement. I'm wondering if they're taking advantage the other parties' unwillingness to jump straight back into litigation to claim they simply didn't care. Let's hope it backfires horribly and only proves to the court that Hyperion never had any intention in following the settlement.
  • »02.01.19 - 14:08
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 64 from 2009/5/6
    I don't know, if I was given rights to the "software" and that software was "Joes OS" and I had exclusive rights to this "software" then the differences between 1.3 and 2.0 and 3.1 would not matter as they are ALL versions of the "software" I have been given rights to.

    As was stated, many statements are open ended and vague and I can tell you many legal documents are purposely written in a vague manner and are often highly subject to interpretation.

    What say we wait and see what the courts say rather than spout crap about things we don't know all of the details.

    [ Edited by outlawal2 02.01.2019 - 08:58 ]
    "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." Quote from Rambo...
  • »02.01.19 - 15:55
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10373 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Hyperion's [...] claim is that they have the rights to "AmigaOS" and therefore
    > it doesn't matter about the version number, they have the worldwide exclusive
    > licence. [...] they've claimed this from the beginning - first week after the
    > settlement. I'm wondering if they're taking advantage the other parties'
    > unwillingness to jump straight back into litigation to claim they simply didn't
    > care. Let's hope it [...] only proves to the court that Hyperion never had any
    > intention in following the settlement.

    You seem to be misremembering Hyperion's October 2009 press release and completely misreading the document where it says on page 7:

    "Hyperion is well aware that the Settlement Agreement granted it the right to use AMIGA OS and the “Boing Ball” logo mark solely in connection with AmigaOS 4, and that this prevented Hyperion – and was intended to prevent Hyperion – from marketing and selling Amiga OS 3.1 on its own, whether in original or enhanced form, e.g., “AmigaOS 3.1.4.” [...] That intention was confirmed by Hyperion in a press release published on Hyperion’s website on October 17, 2009, less than a month after the Settlement Agreement was signed."

    From Hyperion's press release issued 3rd week (not first week) after settlement:

    "Within the framework of the settlement agreement Hyperion is granted an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide right to AmigaOS 3.1 in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market AmigaOS 4.x (and subsequent versions of AmigaOS including without limitation AmigaOS 5) [...]"
  • »02.01.19 - 16:15
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10373 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > if I was given rights to the "software" and that software was "Joes OS"
    > and I had exclusive rights to this "software" then the differences
    > between 1.3 and 2.0 and 3.1 would not matter as they are ALL
    > versions of the "software" I have been given rights to.

    The Settlement Agreement's definition of "the Software" includes a version number, so your example is not applicable.

    > things we don't know all of the details

    The details are in the court documents, the most relevant ones of them published for everyone to read thanks to some generous people paying the required fees.
  • »02.01.19 - 16:37
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2556 from 2003/2/24
    @ Andreas_Wolf

    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.02.19 - 12:48
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 583 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    I assume this means Cloanto are now Amiga Inc in all but name (or even in name). They have all the Amiga IP except that explicitly not owned by Amiga Inc (most relevantly "AmigaONE" and "AmigaOS4").

    Now all we need is Hyperion to hurry up and go bankrupt, OS4 can be sold to A-Eon who clearly want it (having been nibbling at it for years now), and Cloanto can go on marketing 3.x to the burgeoning classic market.

    Pity about 3.1.4. But it wasn't as if Thor and Olaf shouldn't have known better. Oh well, they should talk to Mike (as the legal Amiga IP holder) about redoing the work. He might even pay them this time :)

    [ Edited by KennyR 05.02.2019 - 16:10 ]
  • »05.02.19 - 17:10
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2556 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    C-A Acquisition Corp


    Commodore-Amiga Acquisition Corp”?

    :-o ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.02.19 - 17:20
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2556 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    I assume this means Cloanto are now Amiga Inc in all but name (or even in name). They have all the Amiga IP


    Indeed, possibly even the amiga.com domain for all we know...


    Quote:

    except that explicitly not owned by Amiga Inc (most relevantly "AmigaONE" and "AmigaOS4").


    You mean trade marks?


    Quote:

    OS4 can be sold to A-Eon who clearly want it (having been nibbling at it for years now)


    OS4 is cluttered with OS3 IP that can never be separated from it, that is fully owned and controlled by Cloanto. AFAIK Hyperion does not even own the OS4 additions, the unpaid developers do. Hyperion has merely been a publisher, not owner of anything. The OS4 developers can come to agreement with Cloanto and have OS4 published by Cloanto instead. Cloanto has circumvented a dead-horse publisher before, when they made agreements with 3.5/3.9 developers directly to circumvent H&P who had dropped the ball. Workbench 3.X came out as a result.


    Quote:

    Pity about 3.1.4. But it wasn't as if Thor and Olaf shouldn't have known better. Oh well, they should talk to Mike (as the legal Amiga IP holder) about redoing the work. He might even pay them this time :)


    I don’t think any bridges are burnt. Cloanto could publish 3.1.4, legally this time (and hopefully in a [version].[revision] Commodore style version scheme, like 3.2), and the authors could even receive financial compensation from sales in some way.

    For the first time since Commodore’s bankruptcy, everything could come together under one single umbrella again.

    Good news all the way through!

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.02.19 - 17:53
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10373 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > [version].[revision] Commodore style version scheme

    You mean like Commodore's Workbench 1.3.1 to 1.3.4? (See comment #112 for my previous answer to this comment of yours.)

    > like 3.2

    3.2 has been reserved for the beta version for the Walker.

    > For the first time since Commodore’s bankruptcy, everything could
    > come together under one single umbrella again.

    Escom was the last owner of both Commodore and Amiga trademarks.
  • »05.02.19 - 20:58
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 583 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    I don’t think any bridges are burnt. Cloanto could publish 3.1.4, legally this time (and hopefully in a [version].[revision] Commodore style version scheme, like 3.2), and the authors could even receive financial compensation from sales in some way.


    Dunno. From their comments, it seems the developers have nailed their flag to Hyperion's mast pretty hard and at the moment would be far more likely to join the long ranks of the "developers who worked for Hyperion then disappeared in shame" than ever come back to work on things.
  • »05.02.19 - 21:30
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    number6
    Posts: 288 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Just FYI. Although this direct link functions for non-registered users, moderator moved the thread today "Amiga & Phoenix Community > Software - Cloanto buys Amiga?" itself to forum only visible by registered users.
    Prolly deemed "off-topic" for their s/w forum, so best not to link to that one, in case anyone was considering doing that.

    #6
  • »05.02.19 - 23:54
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10373 from 2003/5/22
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    >> https://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1205395

    > Although this direct link functions for non-registered users,
    > moderator moved the thread today "Amiga & Phoenix Community >
    > Software - Cloanto buys Amiga?" itself to forum only visible
    > by registered users.

    That's a different thread. The above-linked comment is from "Amiga & Phoenix Community > Software - Hyperion vs. Cloanto, et. al. Update" thread.
  • »06.02.19 - 10:02
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    redrumloa
    Posts: 1320 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Update:

    "on Friday, February 1, 2019, Plaintiff Amiga, Inc. transferred to C-A Acquisition Corp., which is under common ownership with Plaintiff Cloanto Corp., all worldwide rights, title and interest in and to all AMIGA-formative trademarks, including but not limited to the “Exclusive Licensed Marks” as that term is defined in the 2009 Settlement Agreement [...], and the “Boing Ball” design mark. [...] Both entities are wholly owned by Michele (“Mike”) Consol Battilana. [...] Consequently, Cloanto and C-A Acquisition Corp. are the owners of all the “Collateral,” as defined in the Settlement Agreement, as well as the AMIGA mark."
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/1jzdHwTZ28vbMxDpgVOVQzyXSFWyBR2NE/edit

    Information on C-A Acquisition Corp.:
    https://www.bizapedia.com/nv/c-a-acquisition-corp.html (company founded in November 2018)


    Booyah! Best news in decades for the Amiga! Now if the newly reborn Amiga Inc can litigate Hyperion out of business, we can go back to having a healthy Amiga platform.
  • »06.02.19 - 17:54
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
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    Minuous
    Posts: 143 from 2010/2/13
    @redrumloa:

    The platform will be healthier if the developer of its OS goes out of business and the sources to it are unavailable? I think not.

    Meanwhile Cloanto have done absolutely nothing for the platform except milk the users for someone else's free emulator for over 20 years, you think they are suddenly going to start caring about the platform!?

    [ Edited by Minuous 07.02.2019 - 04:12 ]
  • »06.02.19 - 19:10
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10373 from 2003/5/22
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    > the newly reborn Amiga Inc

    I guess it will rather be Amiga Corp. or even Amiga srl :-)
  • »06.02.19 - 22:24
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    BSzili
    Posts: 471 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    Quote:

    Minuous wrote:
    @redrumloa:

    The platform will be healthier if the developer of its OS goes out of business and the sources to it are unavailable? I think not.

    Meanwhile Cloanto have done absolutely nothing for the platform except milk the users for someone else's free emulator for over 20 years, you think they are suddenly going to start caring about the platform!?


    "developer"
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »07.02.19 - 10:41
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1048 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Minuous wrote:
    @redrumloa:

    The platform will be healthier if the developer of its OS goes out of business and the sources to it are unavailable? I think not.


    Putting aside the ridiculous notion that Hyperion are anything more than a publisher for one moment. There are many people who have the source code to the OS and if the new owners to the rights don't currently have the source then it's quite easy and very much legal for someone to give them a copy.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

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  • »07.02.19 - 11:23
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