Cloanto sues Hyperion
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1865 from 2003/6/4
    I guess we can agree that Vampire is a nice and powerful hardware ( I consider to get one myself). But we can also agree that Vampire targets rather the retro market. I mean it's pretty powerful and brings Amiga 68k to quite some cpu power.
    But i guess we can distinguish between two main user profiles. Those who use their machine for rather the retro stuff (games, productoiviity) and those who like to do their dailly tasks with the computer (browsing, media, productivity).
    For the latter some serious cpu power is needed. And as much as I am surprised how well MorphOS generally runs on my Efika, I must say that my high clocked G4s (1.5 and 1.67GHz) are only providing just the lower limit for convenient browsing or media usage.
    The question is which direction should MorphOS focus on: retro or contemorary. For _me_ contemporary is the more interesting approach (albeit I also like the retro approach, too) and my feeling is/was that MorphOS was primarily heading that direction. My dream is MorphOS x64 (powerful generic hardware), but as a stop gap after PowerMac but before x64 I could imagine a Power9 system (i.e. Blackbird or maybe Talos II) could provide a solution. MorphOS way faster than today. And for the retro part UAE on such a system will leave Vampire somewhere remote in the dust.

    For Vampire I hope that AROS 68k will get a home there and support for AROS 68k will increase, but I doubt it would make a viable target hardware for MorphOS (albeit I understand the sexiness of a hypothetical 68k MorphOS).
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »26.11.18 - 19:15
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1267 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    The question is which direction should MorphOS focus on: retro or contemorary.


    I'm fully ready for MorphOS to ditch it's legacy roots entirely. Drop backwards compatibility entirely if needed to move on to X86-64.

    Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see MorphOS 68k to run on my Vampire. I'd rather that over OS3.whatever any day and twice on Sunday. That said, I wouldn't want it at the determent of moving the OS forward into the mainstream. I can get by with OS3.whatever for retro computing. I don't mind my A500 being retro. I don't want my MorphOS to be retro.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 26.11.2018 - 14:27 ]
  • »26.11.18 - 19:26
    Profile
  • rob
  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 97 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    I dont see such thing with PPCs and would be much more amazed if we had FPGA onboard x1000/x5000 then unusable Xorro


    It would just be a different chip on the board that would see little to no use.

    The problem here is that it's on a piece of hardware sold into a tiny market limiting the number of people who have the skills to use it and a clear idea of something they want to use it for.

    If you think I'm wrong then tell me about all the wonderful projects utilising the FPGAs on the Sam440 and Sam460.
  • »26.11.18 - 20:20
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > if MOS 3.11 gets to support x5000 board and Radeon 7xxx HDs fully,
    > it would became preffered OS on x5000 :-)

    This would be MorphOS 3.12 at least, and Radeon HD support would have to be for 77xx at least.
  • »26.11.18 - 21:28
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> porting MorphOS to "oldworld" Macs (60x to G3) would make more sense

    > yes to A1, G3 and G5 Macs would be nice

    MorphOS already runs on some AmigaOnes (500 and X5000) and most G5 Macs.


    Edit: deleted "most", see comment #534

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 27.11.2018 - 11:17 ]
  • »26.11.18 - 22:18
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 433 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    I trust what I have in my own hands. I own a Vampire v2 in an A500 and it is absolutely amazing. I would not go back to a Amiga-PPC system if you paid me. I only got an A500 again because of he Vampire, and it does not disappoint.


    Well, until it's electrolytics finally succumb to sheer old age.
  • »26.11.18 - 23:57
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 236 from 2003/7/26
    From: Chicago, IL
    @KennyR

    That's when you get a Vampire V4 Standalone.
    DiscreetFX
    Making your
    Digital Films
    More Effective!
  • »27.11.18 - 03:17
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 841 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    MorphOS already runs on (...) most G5 Macs.


    Actually it runs on 10 of 14 Power Macs G5 and 0 of 8 iMacs G5 so that's 10/22, not "most".
  • »27.11.18 - 08:18
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> MorphOS already runs on (...) most G5 Macs.

    > Actually it runs on 10 of 14 Power Macs G5
    > and 0 of 8 iMacs G5 so that's 10/22, not "most".

    Yes, you are right. I ignored the iMacs for some mysterious reason. Thanks for correction.
  • »27.11.18 - 10:14
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1267 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:

    Well, until it's electrolytics finally succumb to sheer old age.


    With any luck, this will never happen, at least in my lifetime. There has been a lot of work in recent years recreating ever piece of both the C64 and the Amiga. The C64 is getting very close to having an off the shelf replacement for absolutely everything RIGHT NOW. Amiga is lagging behind but work is ongoing.

    If you haven't checked in the last couple years, you may be surprised.
  • »27.11.18 - 13:57
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1821 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    MorphOS already runs on (...) most G5 Macs.


    Actually it runs on 10 of 14 Power Macs G5 and 0 of 8 iMacs G5 so that's 10/22, not "most".




    Well we could nitpick that a little further if you want......*g*
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »27.11.18 - 14:46
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 841 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Well we could nitpick that a little further if you want......*g*


    Yes please. What's on your mind, Kronos? Xserve G5?
  • »27.11.18 - 16:08
    Profile
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 426 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Yes please. What's on your mind, Kronos? Xserve G5?


    IBM Power machines?

    If we could nitpick most common and cheap PPC "platforms"
    I would opt for Sony PS3 and Nintendo WII (if we could backdoor newer slim models)
    as well as abandoned and cursed WII-U which feats high end G3 Class CPU and AMD gfx.
    That would make it even wider avail then with Apples.

    And only way not to abandon x1000 use would be a nice MOS PPC64 port, too :-)



    [ Edited by vox 27.11.2018 - 18:24 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »27.11.18 - 17:24
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>> it runs on 10 of 14 Power Macs G5 and 0 of 8 iMacs G5 so that's 10/22

    >>> we could nitpick that a little further if you want......*g*

    >> What's on your mind, Kronos? Xserve G5?

    > IBM Power machines?

    While classifying the Xserve line as Macs is debatable, doing so for any IBM machines would be utter nonsense.

    > I would opt for Sony PS3 and Nintendo WII (if we could backdoor newer slim models)

    Slim models of the Wii? Btw, the Wii has only 88 MiB of RAM and 480p/576i resolution.

    > only way not to abandon x1000 use would be a nice MOS PPC64 port

    OS4 support for X1000 will be discontinued with the next release? Beside, the current MorphOS PPC32 could very well be ported to the X1000.
  • »27.11.18 - 20:05
    Profile
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 426 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > IBM Power machines?

    While classifying the Xserve line as Macs is debatable, doing so for any IBM machines would be utter nonsense.


    Its not a matter of Macs but usable and widely avail PPC32/PPC64 h/w

    > I would opt for Sony PS3 and Nintendo WII (if we could backdoor newer slim models)

    Quote:

    Slim models of the Wii? Btw, the Wii has only 88 MiB of RAM and 480p/576i resolution.


    Too bad WII was so unerpowered (with consoles its not so easy to get real specs). WII seems to be more prone to Linux hacking then bigger older WII-U which is 1.25Ghz triple core and RadeonHD. I ment the cheap slim PS3, but it has "otherOS" removed so hacks need to be used to USB boot.

    > only way not to abandon x1000 use would be a nice MOS PPC64 port

    Quote:

    OS4 support for X1000 will be discontinued with the next release? Beside, the current MorphOS PPC32 could very well be ported to the X1000.


    Yes, PWREfficient is fully PPC32 compatibile, board needs a bit of love not given by Hyperion.

    Onboard LAN driver will not be fixed (forgotten), Xorro does not have developer tools or usability with avail cards, second core and OS 4.2 prepaid feats are now also forgotten. Newest RadeonHD drivers dont support x1000 since CFE needs update (and bugfixing heavily). Laughable matter is that AEON claims not having source code :-)

    Its my private decision not support OS4 software and OS until they deliver original promises of x1000 era - OS 4.2, Timberwolf or newest OWB port and LibreOffice. And fix Linux with SI cards. Or port MOS and fix Linux. Even more then that, CFE needs serious fixes.


    [ Edited by vox 28.11.2018 - 08:51 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »28.11.18 - 06:01
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>>>> it runs on 10 of 14 Power Macs G5 and 0 of 8 iMacs G5

    >>>>> we could nitpick that a little further if you want......*g*

    >>>> What's on your mind, Kronos? Xserve G5?

    >>> IBM Power machines?

    >> While classifying the Xserve line as Macs is debatable,
    >> doing so for any IBM machines would be utter nonsense.

    > Its not a matter of Macs

    It is in the comment you replied to.

    > with consoles its not so easy to get real specs

    Wikipedia has them usually.

    > WII seems to be more prone to Linux hacking then [...] older WII-U

    Wii-U older than Wii? What about newer Wii-U?

    > board needs a bit of love not given by Hyperion. Onboard LAN driver
    > will not be fixed (forgotten), Xorro does not have developer tools or
    > usability with avail cards

    Seems like lack of love by A-Eon as well, not just Hyperion. Btw, lack of xCORE/Xena/Xorro support is not X1000-specific. It's the same with X5000.

    > Its my private decision not support OS4 software and OS until they deliver
    > original promises of x1000 era - [...] Timberwolf or newest OWB port [...].

    I don't remember Timberwolf or OWB being promised by Hyperion or A-Eon.

    > And fix Linux with SI cards. Or port MOS and fix Linux.

    Not using OS4 until Linux is fixed or MorphOS is ported sounds irrational. Btw, not porting MorphOS to the X1000 is a decision made solely by the MorphOS team, not by A-Eon or Hyperion.
  • »28.11.18 - 08:39
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1821 from 2003/2/24
    Funny how everybody went into the completly false direction......




    Maybe you should reconsinder the exact meaning of MorphOS and „runs“ to get my drift ;)
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »28.11.18 - 16:10
    Profile
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 426 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    > board needs a bit of love not given by Hyperion. Onboard LAN driver
    > will not be fixed (forgotten), Xorro does not have developer tools or
    > usability with avail cards

    A>Seems like lack of love by A-Eon as well, not just Hyperion. Btw, lack of xCORE/Xena/Xorro A>support is not X1000-specific. It's the same with X5000.

    Surely,since its not done properly on x1000, it goes along.
    Too bad at least x5000 it wasnt replaced by FPGA chip

    > Its my private decision not support OS4 software and OS until they deliver
    > original promises of x1000 era - [...] Timberwolf or newest OWB port [...].

    A>I don't remember Timberwolf or OWB being promised by Hyperion or A-Eon.

    True, but it was promoted/collected in same times, and was an important decision factor.
    TW was collected bounty by Hyperion, unofficially.

    Friedens HQ still has a claim
    http://friedenhq.org/amiga/timberwolf/
    "Timberwolf is the AmigaOS port of Mozilla’s Firefox browser. Currently, the code is based on Firefox 4.0.1, but we’re working on bringing it up to the latest build (18.0.1 at the time of writing, although 19.x is more likely)."

    If you wish more unfulfilled AEON matters, Warp3D was supposed to go for 5xxx and 6xxx cards and was never done.

    > And fix Linux with SI cards. Or port MOS and fix Linux.

    A>Not using OS4 until Linux is fixed or MorphOS is ported sounds irrational. Btw, not porting A>MorphOS to the X1000 is a decision made solely by the MorphOS team, not by A-Eon or A>Hyperion.

    AOS4 simply lacks productivity apps and Linux does need fixes to work properly on SI cards. Even GNOME fails without proper 3D. Not to mention KDE etc. Plus, x1000 and x5000 dont have official support so its a bit dirty hacks and waiting for DD images. Contrary, Pegasos support is still included in many distros oficially.

    Decision to port to x5000 was MOS team decision funded by AEON, so it seems its down to funding. Ideas seems to be to make x5000 more exclusive then it is.

    Back to topic:

    Dont see how legal mumbo jumbo will end. OS 3.1.4 is Hyperion saver, but offers "too little, too late". I wish OS 3.9+ would advance as m68k OS, but this simply isnt that.

    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Maybe you should reconsinder the exact meaning of MorphOS and „runs“ to get my drift ;)


    I always considered MorphOS not only to be "morph" of AOS to more advanced, optimized, beautiful but also morphing as many PPC machines to be MOS-able ("morphing them to Amiga like").


    [ Edited by vox 29.11.2018 - 05:23 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »29.11.18 - 04:20
    Profile
  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    bennymee
    Posts: 83 from 2004/4/14
    From: Netherlands
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Yes please. What's on your mind, Kronos? Xserve G5?


    IBM Power machines?

    If we could nitpick most common and cheap PPC "platforms"
    I would opt for Sony PS3 and Nintendo WII (if we could backdoor newer slim models)
    as well as abandoned and cursed WII-U which feats high end G3 Class CPU and AMD gfx.
    That would make it even wider avail then with Apples.

    And only way not to abandon x1000 use would be a nice MOS PPC64 port, too :-)





    How much is known of the internals of the PS3 e.g. Wifi, Cell cpu, GFX ? Not much to enable a fast port of MOS to it.

    I think I prefer a Mac Mini, allso still available in quantities. Quiet and a perfect starter for a MOS machine.
  • »29.11.18 - 09:18
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> [...] until they deliver original promises of
    >>> x1000 era - [...] Timberwolf or newest OWB port

    >> I don't remember Timberwolf or OWB being promised
    >> by Hyperion or A-Eon.

    > True

    Why should Hyperion or A-Eon deliver Timberwolf or OWB promised by others then?

    > TW was collected bounty by Hyperion, unofficially.

    You mean the money went to Hyperion, not to the Friedens?

    >> Not using OS4 until Linux is fixed [...] sounds irrational.

    > Linux does need fixes to work properly on SI cards.

    Yes, I understand this. What I don't understand is not using OS4 as long as Linux remains unfixed (or MorphOS remains unported), which means starting to use OS4 again as soon as Linux has been fixed (or MorphOS has been ported).

    > Pegasos support is still included in many distros oficially.

    No, it's not. You will have a hard time finding any Linux distro that in its recent release supports the Pegasos out-of-box.

    > port to x5000 was MOS team decision funded by AEON

    A-Eon didn't fund the MorphOS port to the X5000. A-Eon provided hardware for development, but that isn't funding. Trevor said he offered to provide X1000 hardware to the MorphOS team for porting, but it seems they declined.

    > so it seems its down to funding.

    This apparently depends on the specific hardware platform. The X5000 port was done without funding, but I can imagine an X1000 port to occur provided it is adequately funded (similar to how the ports to Efika 5200B or PowerMac G5 came to be).

    > Ideas seems to be to make x5000 more exclusive then it is.

    That's not my impression.

    > I always considered MorphOS not only to be "morph" of AOS to
    > more advanced, optimized, beautiful but also morphing as many
    > PPC machines to be MOS-able ("morphing them to Amiga like").

    Luckily, the inventors of the name have applied their own meaning ;-)
  • »29.11.18 - 10:32
    Profile
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    amigakit
    Posts: 34 from 2005/8/24
    Quote:

    Newest RadeonHD drivers dont support x1000 since CFE needs update (and bugfixing heavily)


    This is an incorrect statement. No CFE update required on X1000 for RadeonHD v3.6.

    The latest RadeonHD v3.6 supports the X1000. See here on Wiki:

    http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=RadeonHD

    You are mistaking it with the separate RadeonRX driver.



    [ Edited by amigakit 30.11.2018 - 13:13 ]
    www.amigakit.com - Amiga store
  • »30.11.18 - 13:13
    Profile Visit Website
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 426 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    amigakit wrote:
    You are mistaking it with the separate RadeonRX driver.





    True, since that is the latest RadeonHD driver.

    Anyway when CFE bugs will be resolved, such as:
    - Not sending x86 VGA outpout signal on boot (poor x86 gfx card compatibility)
    - Reading only one USB (no insta USB boot with CFE interruption possible, kb plug problem)
    - Not being able too boot Linux kernels from HDD
    - Corrupting FAT16 CFE card on write or if left write enabled
    - Poor text editing (needed to edit CFE lines), poorer then MS DOS 1.0
    - Amiga and not Linux drive and command format
    - Crashing if Amigaboot.of fails
    - Need for a memory to be defined at CFE instead of reading RAM size (no real BIOS functions)

    as far as I remember AEON/AmiKit stance is that "firmware updates will be free" (offered to buy the fixed version). Why do you choose to ignore such serious "half done" CFE?

    [ Edited by vox 30.11.2018 - 17:14 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »30.11.18 - 14:38
    Profile