AmiWest 2017 Demo
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    zbysiuk
    Posts: 24 from 2006/8/4
    Quote:

    Well, I don't have to pay VAT, so my price is a little lower than the price most of you would get.
    And I do look at this as the last PPC system I will be purchasing.
    And short of trying to find a SAM460, I don't have any other options to use the new video card support (other than wait for an ISA shift - and I'm not that patient).


    No hard feelings, I understend you perfectly. In my case 1k would be acceptable, so as you can see nostalgie has its price :)
  • »23.10.17 - 19:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4300 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    zbysiuk wrote:
    Quote:

    Well, I don't have to pay VAT, so my price is a little lower than the price most of you would get.
    And I do look at this as the last PPC system I will be purchasing.
    And short of trying to find a SAM460, I don't have any other options to use the new video card support (other than wait for an ISA shift - and I'm not that patient).


    No hard feelings, I understend you perfectly. In my case 1k would be acceptable, so as you can see nostalgie has its price :)


    No, I can understand the basic economic concerns involved in this purchase, when an 11,2 PowerMac would probably outperform the purchase of $2000 (or more) of new hardware.

    Its part of what makes the entire OS4 proposition seem so untenable.
    $2000 for an adequate system, or $500 for an inadequate compromise system versus $100< for an 11,2 PowerMac.

    Weird, huh?

    It IS time we moved to commodity hardware, because this custom stuff is a bad proposition.

    I'm just looking at the purchase of an X5000 as an collectable example of our last PPC stuff, I wouldn't recommend the purchase to another person.

    Its not rational. ;-)
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.10.17 - 19:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9334 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the entire Morphos x5000 project in the context of usefulness is unsuccessful
    > unless one wants to buy new equipment with warranty or like Jim is nostalgic.

    I guess most nostalgics would prefer a G5 Mac to an X5000 ;-)
  • »23.10.17 - 20:14
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4300 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > the entire Morphos x5000 project in the context of usefulness is unsuccessful
    > unless one wants to buy new equipment with warranty or like Jim is nostalgic.

    I guess most nostalgics would prefer a G5 Mac to an X5000 ;-)


    I suppose it depends on your focus.
    Until OSX you would not have caught me dead on a Mac.
    I REALLY didn't like the platform (too inflexible).

    But the G5s are pretty cool.
    And unlike many of you, I actually like the water cooled systems as they are still rather exotic.

    But as nostalgia value goes, I'm assuming that in he future the X5000 will have more of that for me, being Amiga specific.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.10.17 - 20:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2461 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    It IS time we moved to commodity hardware, because this custom stuff is a bad proposition.

    I'm just looking at the purchase of an X5000 as an collectable example of our last PPC stuff, I wouldn't recommend the purchase to another person.

    Its not rational. ;-)


    That was exactly my thinking when I first thought about ordering my X1000. I was not expecting Trevor to be crazy enough to continue spending so much money on further AmigaOne designs and production costs. Later, when I learned that the X5000 was going to be produced, I still thought that the X1000 was a special computer, so I went forward with my purchase plans, even after Trevor advised me that I might be better off waiting for the X5000. If I had known for sure that MorphOS was going to be ported to the X5000, I would have cancelled my order for the X1000, and switched to a purchase of the X5000. Still, my X1000 is a nice system for running AmigaOS4.1FE, and some day within the next ten years, it might get a free copy of AmigaOS4.2, but I'm not holding my breath for that to arrive.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »24.10.17 - 17:18
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1869 from 2003/10/19
    From: Oxnard, Ca.
    Hi everyone,
    Well the live streaming demo didn't happen because of the strange way they routed video out of my machine and into a series of switchers and a video toaster 2000 setup I think. It was causing all kinds of sync issues. I didn't want to show the public this crap so I refused to stream it.

    What I did do is demo it at the table and let it run most of the day Saturday. We tried again Sunday afternoon with the same issues. So I was sadly only able to show it one on one. It was very well received however and surprised a lot of people that looked at it.

    some STRANG to me at least things I noticed from "Amiga" users commenting on MorphOS

    1. They don't understand the panels?? I don't get this one, I explained they are just like Amidock and work quite a bit like them, once showing how to create a new one and add applications to it I THINK it cleared it up.

    2. SYS and MosSYS, many sisnt get that the system is split into its own complete dir structure away from what applications use when they install. Once I showed them it was a mirror of sys they liked it and thought it was a great idea, others asked why go to all the work reproducing a mirror of the system drawers, and when they crash OS4.1 and need to install from a rogue app I just laughed at them.

    3. They say they don't like the blue looking defaults and it confuses them, so I showed them a build I did making it look exactly like OS4.1 and it shuts them up a bit.

    4. I had to change out my R250X video card and put in a R230. They made life hell asking why newer cards are not supported. I mostly said because before the X5000 we didn't have a system that would take a newer card and it will now come once its public. This is one we really need to look at long and hard. I know Bigfoot is working hard on this and I am not to worried about it.

    5. The comments on how fast it is over 4.1 made me feel good. Boot up is a fraction of the time it take to boot 4.1 and that was so awesome to see people freak out when they say it boot in under 3 seconds compared to what it takes 4.1, which is considerable more time!

    Thanks to Bigfoot for trusting in me to show this. Amiwest is far from an AmigaOS 4 show. They want more AROS and MorphOS presence and I want to be able to give them all I can every year!! Next year I hope we can get things moving a bit sooner and be ready. I am also going to bring my own projector and video switching hardware. Its amazing just how bad the hotels service was!
    Powerbook 1.67GHZ (Currently Main MorphOS Machine)
    Powermac Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 (Registration #1894)
    A4000T CSPPC, Mediator
    AmigaOne X5000
    Need Amiga recap or other services in the USA? Visit my website at http://www.acill.com
  • »24.10.17 - 18:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9334 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > newer cards are not supported [...] because before the X5000 we didn't have a system
    > that would take a newer card

    The Sam460 has been supported since MorphOS 3.8, which was released 2½ years ago.

    > it will now come once its public. [...] I know Bigfoot is working hard on this

    I hope drivers for GCN-based cards (which is what OS4 users use primarily in PCIe) won't take long.
  • »24.10.17 - 20:11
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1800 from 2003/6/4
    Acill, thanks for presenting and your interesting report from the show.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »24.10.17 - 20:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4300 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf...I hope drivers for GCN-based cards (which is what OS4 users use primarily in PCIe) won't take long.


    Unless they want to dual boot Linux, then they don't 😋

    Since very few of us have a PCI-E MorphOS system, the new driver aren't,t going to benefit many of us.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.10.17 - 12:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9334 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> GCN-based cards [...] is what OS4 users use primarily in PCIe

    > Unless they want to dual boot Linux, then they don't 😋

    Hence "primarily". I believe most PCIe-based OS4 systems do not have Linux installed.

    > Since very few of us have a PCI-E MorphOS system, the new driver aren't,t going
    > to benefit many of us.

    My rationale is more about "them" who could become part of "us" than about "us" as of now, the potentially enlarged future "us" so to speak :-)
  • »25.10.17 - 13:01
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 93 from 2015/6/30
    GCN cards function under Linux PowerPC .
    No gpu assisted 3D of video playback though .
    I use a GCN card .
  • »25.10.17 - 13:58
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4300 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    GCN cards function under Linux PowerPC .
    No gpu assisted 3D of video playback though .
    I use a GCN card .




    Lack of 3D acceleration is a deal killer for me, but I should have pointed out that qualifier.
    In any case, since we aren't talking about extremely powerful CPUs, and I can find Terascale 2 gpus that clean the clock of some of those used on GCN based boards common in OS4 systems.

    As to the card Paul used, a Radeon R5 230, if I was going to use a Caicos based card, I would have picked the older Radeon HD 8490.
    It's faster.

    And the drivers Paul's system has will work with some lower end 8000 and 7000 series cards, as well as higher end cards like the HD 6870 (which can be had really cheaply right now and has very good OS4 and Linux support).

    Right now, GCN Gen1 doesn't really interest me, Gen2 and above (which Hans be Ruiter announced he was developing for), THOSE definitely have my attention.
    Particularly the RX 560, which is cheap AND powerful.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.10.17 - 14:30
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 93 from 2015/6/30
    As AmigaOS 4.x is my #1 OS ,I have what works best for AmigaOS 4.x as my default.

    Some interesting comments from SSolie in response to a question here
    http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=832137&postcount=7


    [ Edited by Spectre660 25.10.2017 - 11:44 ]
  • »25.10.17 - 14:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4300 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    As AmigaOS 4.x is my #1 OS ,I have what works best for AmigaOS 4.x as my default.

    Some interesting comments from SSolie in response to a question here
    http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=832137&postcount=7



    The only problem with that comment is its not coming from the guy developing the video drivers.
    But as they are gigantic parallel processors, there are some interesting possibilities offered by using the GPU.

    OS4 is now your primary OS? interesting.

    As I had the chance to explore AMD video cards from the R600 to GCN Gen2, one thing I did notice is that it really depends on what you're running with each gpu.
    The GCN cards really shine when combined with DX11.1 or 12.
    Under Open GL and older versions of Direct X, its a little less clear cut.

    If the GCN cards vended with the X5000 perform significantly better under OS4 than say a high end Northern Islands , I'd be somewhat surprised.
    BUT, GCN does shine in GPGPU applications, and its the future, so going that way makes sense.

    Again, these later cards will prove interesting.

    Mark mentioned to me awhile ago that he'd polled the Radeon R7 260X he had on hand and had gotten info back from it similar to what Hans mentioned.
    But de Ruiter is ahead of him, since Bigfoot insisted of supporting the intervening cards between our current support and the support included in 3.10.

    Obviously, since we have different primary OS', my criteria for video card selection will be different than yours. Luckily support for Northern Islands under OS4 is pretty good if I want to experiment with that.

    Linux? I'll probably install and after playing with it delete it or leave it unused.

    It takes to long to boot on NG hardware. And if I was serious, I'd just load it on one of my X64 systems.

    [ Edited by Jim 25.10.2017 - 11:10 ]
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.10.17 - 15:07
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9334 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Lack of 3D acceleration is a deal killer for me [...]. [...]
    > the HD 6870 [...] has very good OS4 [...] support

    OS4 completely lacks 3D support for it.
  • »25.10.17 - 21:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9334 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If the GCN cards vended with the X5000 perform significantly better under OS4
    > than say a high end Northern Islands , I'd be somewhat surprised.

    At least in terms of 3D acceleration the GCN cards perform infinitely better ;-)

    > support for Northern Islands under OS4 is pretty good

    See my previous comment.
  • »25.10.17 - 21:38
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Debaser
    Posts: 134 from 2005/7/12
    From: Syracuse, NY, USA
    Acill and all involved:

    Thanks for supporting Morphos at Amiwest this year. Cool to read your feedback and observations as well. I am really looking forward to installing 3.10 on my X5000.
  • »26.10.17 - 14:35
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 93 from 2015/6/30
    Brings to mind another question :
    Will a separate hard drive be required or can AmigaOS 4.1 and Morphos 3.10 be installed on the same hard drive ?

    Quote:

    Debaser wrote:
    Acill and all involved:

    Thanks for supporting Morphos at Amiwest this year. Cool to read your feedback and observations as well. I am really looking forward to installing 3.10 on my X5000.
  • »26.10.17 - 14:57
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1869 from 2003/10/19
    From: Oxnard, Ca.
    As long as you have SFS you can put it on the same drive partitioned sure.
    Powerbook 1.67GHZ (Currently Main MorphOS Machine)
    Powermac Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 (Registration #1894)
    A4000T CSPPC, Mediator
    AmigaOne X5000
    Need Amiga recap or other services in the USA? Visit my website at http://www.acill.com
  • »27.10.17 - 14:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9334 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > As long as you have SFS you can put it on the same drive partitioned sure.

    How is the filesystem relevant for this and why is it restricted to SFS? Do you mean the MorphOS boot partition, the MorphOS system partition or both?
  • »27.10.17 - 21:22
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4300 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > If the GCN cards vended with the X5000 perform significantly better under OS4
    > than say a high end Northern Islands , I'd be somewhat surprised.

    At least in terms of 3D acceleration the GCN cards perform infinitely better ;-)

    > support for Northern Islands under OS4 is pretty good

    See my previous comment.


    Wow, good thing I'm not running OS4, or for that matter an HD 6870.
    I'll probably initially use either an HD 8490 or an HD 6750.

    "2D Driver with compositing" I guess they really don't have better Northern Islands support than that.

    So we'll have 3D from the R200 up to Terascale 3, and then hopefully we'll see similar support for GCN cards.

    While they have a huge gap in their 3D support.

    Curious.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.10.17 - 21:56
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 93 from 2015/6/30
    Both OSes have/will have gaps at various points.
    The MorphOS gap is currently in newer cards and the AmigaOS 4.1 gap in older cards .
    A-Eon had two different developers working on initial 3D support .
    Support for cards in the Radeon HD5000-6000 series has not borne fruit.
    Support for the Radeon HD 7000 series and beyond is producing a fine crop.
    It has taken 5 years to reach this stage from the start of the attempt for the Radeon HD5000-6000 Series 3D up to Warp 3DNova for radeon SI cards .
    Two different 3D product have been produced. Warp3D SI and Warp3D Nova(SI).
    There is also a wrapper for Warp3D via the more advanced Warp3D Nova in the works by another developer.
    This will atomically be able to take advantage of the full graphics memory of the video card introduced in the version of the RadeonHD 3.x driver and should also result in much better performance for Warp3D software including existing binaries.

    There will be more fun when we have an overlap in 2D and 3D support for the same cards by the the two Oses .


    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > If the GCN cards vended with the X5000 perform significantly better under OS4
    > than say a high end Northern Islands , I'd be somewhat surprised.

    At least in terms of 3D acceleration the GCN cards perform infinitely better ;-)

    > support for Northern Islands under OS4 is pretty good

    See my previous comment.


    Wow, good thing I'm not running OS4, or for that matter an HD 6870.
    I'll probably initially use either an HD 8490 or an HD 6750.

    "2D Driver with compositing" I guess they really don't have better Northern Islands support than that.

    So we'll have 3D from the R200 up to Terascale 3, and then hopefully we'll see similar support for GCN cards.

    While they have a huge gap in their 3D support.

    Curious.





    [ Edited by Spectre660 27.10.2017 - 20:58 ]
  • »27.10.17 - 23:54
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4300 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    Both OSes have/will have gaps at various points.
    The MorphOS gap is currently in newer cards and the AmigaOS 4.1 gap in older cards .
    A-Eon had two different developers working on initial 3D support .
    Support for cards in the Radeon HD5000-6000 series has not borne fruit.
    Support for the Radeon HD 7000 series and beyond is producing a fine crop.
    It has taken 5 years to reach this stage from the start of the attempt for the Radeon HD5000-6000 Series 3D up to Warp 3DNova for radeon SI cards .
    Two different 3D product have been produced. Warp3D SI and Warp3D Nova(SI).
    There is also a wrapper for Warp3D via the more advanced Warp3D Nova in the works by another developer.
    This will atomically be able to take advantage of the full graphics memory of the video card introduced in the version of the RadeonHD 3.x driver and should also result in much better performance for Warp3D software including existing binaries.

    There will be more fun when we have an overlap in 2D and 3D support for the same cards by the the two Oses .



    Thanks for the clarification. I missed the fact that the older drivers did not get 3D support.
    But I have been paying attention to Han de Ruiter's work, on both the GCN video card drivers and Warp 3D Nova.
    The OS4 community is very lucky to have Hans.
    There are more gaps than the one you mentioned.
    MorphOS has not updated its OpenGL support in some time, and does not support more than one Radeon video card.
    2D and 3D comparisons between the two OS?
    Considering the differences between MorphOS and OS4, that could be complicated.

    Particularly since it seems you are aquiring an edge.


    [ Edited by Jim 28.10.2017 - 08:10 ]
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »28.10.17 - 12:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9334 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > There will be more fun when we have an overlap in 2D and 3D support
    > for the same cards by the the two Oses .

    Absolutely.
  • »28.10.17 - 20:13
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2428 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Acill wrote:
    As long as you have SFS you can put it on the same drive partitioned sure.


    I’m not really certain if I understand your point, but a word of caution here: The OS4 forked SFS may use the same name as SFS, but just like ”MUI” their version is not fully compatible. Do not use their FrankenSFS handler on your MorphOS partitions.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »30.10.17 - 00:09
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