Saku 2017 MorphOS 3.10 preview
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ausPPC
    Posts: 534 from 2007/8/6
    From: SE Queensland
    What was revealed about 3.10? Or did everyone have to sign an NDA just to hear the presentation?
    PPC assembly ain't so bad... ;)
  • »09.10.17 - 21:55
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    marmotta
    Posts: 20 from 2012/6/11
    I lost the hope for my G5 Pcie :-(
  • »10.10.17 - 17:16
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4255 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    marmotta wrote:
    I lost the hope for my G5 Pcie :-(


    Not surprising. I've been hearing negative talking points on this issue for awhile.
    Without anyone ever really addressing the elephant in the room, why are we not going to support the final, best PPC Mac?
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.10.17 - 18:43
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    marmotta
    Posts: 20 from 2012/6/11
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    marmotta wrote:
    I lost the hope for my G5 Pcie :-(


    Not surprising. I've been hearing negative talking points on this issue for awhile.
    Without anyone ever really addressing the elephant in the room, why are we not going to support the final, best PPC Mac?


    For not to go into competition with the X5000?
  • »10.10.17 - 18:52
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 644 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Without anyone ever really addressing the elephant in the room, why are we not going to support the final, best PPC Mac?


    Because:
    1. The standard configuration contains incompatible gfx card, and we don't like flashing;
    2. Some additional drivers are required, mainly Ethernet;
    3. Some additional coding/hacking/reverse engineering the hardware is required, e.g. fan control, CPU voltage etc;
    4. Who needs another PPC anyway? x64 support is nigh!
    5. Did I say we don't like flashed gfx cards?

    (above points - well, except for the number 4 - are a summary of my correspondence with some of the MorphOS team members)
  • »10.10.17 - 19:15
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    marmotta
    Posts: 20 from 2012/6/11
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Because:
    1. The standard configuration contains incompatible gfx card, and we don't like flashing;
    2. Some additional drivers are required, mainly Ethernet;
    3. Some additional coding/hacking/reverse engineering the hardware is required, e.g. fan control, CPU voltage etc;
    4. Who needs another PPC anyway? x64 support is nigh!
    5. Did I say we don't like flashed gfx cards?

    (above points - well, except for the number 4 - are a summary of my correspondence with some of the MorphOS team members)


    1: Without flashing, any pcie graphics board work good. Openfirmware is not necessary for Mos or Linux.
    2: Sources for ethernet driver is free (linux) recompile for mos is not too difficult
    3: Same as point 2, all with linux work without any problem, sources are free for all.
    4: No comment :-)
    5: Is not needed, if you want openfirmware prompt you can use two graphic boards (the original for Openfirmware, and any RadeonHd for Mos/Linux)
  • »10.10.17 - 20:11
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4255 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Without anyone ever really addressing the elephant in the room, why are we not going to support the final, best PPC Mac?


    Because:
    1. The standard configuration contains incompatible gfx card, and we don't like flashing;
    2. Some additional drivers are required, mainly Ethernet;
    3. Some additional coding/hacking/reverse engineering the hardware is required, e.g. fan control, CPU voltage etc;
    4. Who needs another PPC anyway? x64 support is nigh!
    5. Did I say we don't like flashed gfx cards?

    (above points - well, except for the number 4 - are a summary of my correspondence with some of the MorphOS team members)


    Paying attention recently?
    We haven't had to use flashed graphic cards since the R500 drivers were introduced.
    All cards from the R500 up will rely on AtomBIOS calls, so flashed cards are not going to be required.
    Therefore, we would have a way of running cards BETTER than those Apple supported, in PowerMac G5 PCI-E models.

    Fan control and networking don't seem like a massive amount of work compared to the incredible amount of work Mark had to do for the original G5 port, or the work he has been doing over the last year or so enhancing the Radeon driver.

    IS X64 support close at hand?
    And if it is, why are we worried about the X5000?

    We have NO idea IF the X64 jump will be made OR when, but we DO currently support PPCs, and you haven't really addressed the question.
    Why not the best PowerMac PPC?

    @marmotta:

    Sorry, I should have read your post.

    Yes, you can use two video cards, and if you aren't interested in running the open firmware card under MorphOS you can make it something cheap like an Nvidia 6600.
    Tie that to the VGA input of your monitor and the Radeon HD card to the DVI input of your monitor, and you'll never miss not having Apple firmware on the Radeon card.

    [ Edited by Jim 10.10.2017 - 16:10 ]
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.10.17 - 20:42
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> why are we not going to support the final, best PPC Mac?

    > For not to go into competition with the X5000?

    I don't think the MorphOS team cares if a keyfile is issued for a license bought for an X5000 or for a license bought for a PPC Mac.
  • »10.10.17 - 21:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1787 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    koszer schrieb:

    4. Who needs another PPC anyway? x64 support is nigh!




    Two more weeks? ;-)
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    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »10.10.17 - 21:22
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    marmotta
    Posts: 20 from 2012/6/11
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> why are we not going to support the final, best PPC Mac?

    > For not to go into competition with the X5000?

    I don't think the MorphOS team cares if a keyfile is issued for a license bought for an X5000 or for a license bought for a PPC Mac.



    I don't think for the keyfiles, but for diplomacy... (rightly) "amiga like" realities try to help each other. But it's just my thought
  • »10.10.17 - 21:22
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 644 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    @Jim, @marmota:

    Hey, don't shoot the messenger. What I wrote was what I read in e-mails from the devs. That, plus "We already support too much hardware anyway". I wrote back that we could use dual gfx cards and so on, but I didn't get any reply, so I guess my list remains valid.
  • »10.10.17 - 21:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > "amiga like" realities try to help each other. But it's just my thought

    In reality, only a vanishingly small fraction of those who would buy a used PowerMac11,2 for 200 EUR or less to run MorphOS would instead buy an X5000 for ten times as much if MorphOS isn't available for the former. Just my thought, of course :-)
  • »10.10.17 - 21:55
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    marmotta
    Posts: 20 from 2012/6/11
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > "amiga like" realities try to help each other. But it's just my thought

    In reality, only a vanishingly small fraction of those who would buy a used PowerMac11,2 for 200 EUR or less to run MorphOS would instead buy an X5000 for ten times as much if MorphOS isn't available for the former. Just my thought, of course :-)


    Yes, but the problem is the possible comparison.... This can demonstrate the superiority of the G5 on the x5000 and this resulting bad advertising for the new machine ;-)
  • »10.10.17 - 22:10
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the problem is the possible comparison.... This can demonstrate the superiority
    > of the G5 on the x5000

    This can also be done with the already supported PowerMac7,3. I'm not sure many people will pay tenfold just to have PCIe instead of AGP.
  • »10.10.17 - 22:21
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    zukow
    Posts: 448 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    PCIe cards give big speedup of graphic handling. For example, scrolling in OWB is much more smoother. I got two times fps in Q3 than using R9600. Overlay works a bit better so more 1080p h264 can be viewed. Even WPA mode in MPlayer allows to watch 720p without frameskip.



    [ Edited by zukow 10.10.2017 - 23:39 ]
  • »10.10.17 - 22:39
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4255 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    @Jim, @marmota:

    Hey, don't shoot the messenger. What I wrote was what I read in e-mails from the devs. That, plus "We already support too much hardware anyway". I wrote back that we could use dual gfx cards and so on, but I didn't get any reply, so I guess my list remains valid.


    I don't think we are likely to get dual Radeon because of the way the driver polls for cards, but you're list still isn't particularly valid.
    Even now we can use X1950 cards that haven't been flashed.
    Wait just a little longer, and you might get a demo of the new stuff. It's not quite ready for public consumption, but it's progressed far enough for that.
    And you know they don't generally answer inquiries about future releases.
    I'm not really trying to 'shoot' down your comments, but if we are about to support most of the Radeon cards prior to the GCN cards, wouldn't it make sense to support systems they can be installed in?

    After all, AGP will only get us up to the R600 and R700 cards. I can't see the SAM460 and X5000 being the only systems that support Radeon HD 5000-8000 series cards.

    [ Edited by Jim 10.10.2017 - 20:14 ]
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.10.17 - 01:12
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 644 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    your list still isn't particularly valid.


    is, is and is. Now read that:

    Dev 1:

    1) Open Firmware compatible PCI Express Radeons are in short supply. Without a such, you'd have no access to the firmware, which makes installing and using the machine quite a hassle. Reflashed cards are not a solution either, as those cards tend to be misconfigured by the flashed firmware, leading to all sorts of trouble on the OS side.
    2) A lot of hardware is different from previous generations of Macs, and thus require completely different code to support. Ethernet and the cooling system are two things, but there's also things like processor frequency and voltage control, which also has to be handled by the OS. There are other things to deal with as well, and those would then have to be tested and adjusted for each revision of that Mac.
    3) PowerMac11s aren't so much better than the PowerMac7s to make up for the required effort


    Dev 2:

    There are still missing drivers including fan/cooling management. There is no onboard eth support and there are already way too many configurations we need to support.
    Late 2005 G5 PowerMacs also came with nvidia cards by default mostly which are not supported as well and require anyone interested in MorphOS to get a supported graphics card first which is not that easy to aquire if you still need OS X/OF working.
    I'm sure there a few people who don't really care about this issues and would still like to run MorphOS on such machine - even one in our team does - but this most likely doesn't account for a reasonable amount of users.


    As you can see both devs are stressing the gfx card issue (which is not such an issue for us, users, but who cares?). Who's right? Koszer's right! :)
  • »11.10.17 - 10:59
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    Kronos
    Posts: 1674 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:

    Who's right? Koszer's right! :)


    Nah reality just align with you while you‘re still wrong by nature.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »11.10.17 - 12:05
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Now read that:
    > Dev 1: [...]
    > Dev 2: [...]

    Both statements clearly ignore the possibility of keeping the stock Nvidia card installed for OSX/OF display and simply adding a supported off-the-shelf Radeon HD card for MorphOS display. Does that mean these two devs (or the entire MorphOS team) don't deem this solution technically possible?

    > As you can see both devs are stressing the gfx card issue
    > (which is not such an issue for us, users, but who cares?).

    The two devs you quote claim it is an issue for the users ("[...] which makes installing and using the machine quite a hassle", "[...] this most likely doesn't account for a reasonable amount of users").
  • »11.10.17 - 14:11
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4255 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Thanks Andreas, they aren't issues for me.

    First, Apple Radeon X1900GT cards are not in short supply, and they are fairly cheap.
    I have already proven this in past posts and can produce listings for them any time any of you care to contest this.

    Second, I don't really care about firmware prompts, and if access to firmware is needed, in the past I have just swapped out video cards.

    Third, as pointed out repeatedly, a dual Nvidia/AMD video card settup eliminates this issue.

    So, again, with new video card support on the horizon, wouldn't it be nice to have an upgrade path that could use these cards other than the X5000 or a future X64 system?

    As I plan on buying an X5000/40 when available it's not vital for me. But, as I already own an 11,2 PowerMac, I can tell you from experience that these are better than our current G5s.

    So, once more, why aren't we planning to support the best PowerMac?
    Because the answer doesn't have to do with video cards.

    I already have an Apple Nvidia 6600 and a Radeon HD 6750 in mine (currently connected to two monitors, but I believe MorphOS could be implemented with one, or a switch).

    So if you guys want to wait to use Mark's Radeon HD drivers until we receive X64 support, that is up to you.
    I already have an option to do so, and will act on it.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.10.17 - 14:37
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    Kronos
    Posts: 1674 from 2003/2/24
    @Jim

    All nice and candy....


    But you can't just hit ebay or so and find a PCIe G5 that will work out of the box (except the 20" iSight iMac, but that is rather rare).

    So the support would be like for Cube, read it works but not marketed that way.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »11.10.17 - 14:44
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 644 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Both statements clearly ignore the possibility of keeping the stock Nvidia card installed for OSX/OF display and simply adding a supported off-the-shelf Radeon HD card for MorphOS display. Does that mean these two devs (or the entire MorphOS team) don't deem this solution technically possible?


    I don't know. I wrote them both that I believe every MorphOS-interested Joe Average can buy a vanilla PC Radeon and stick it in x16 PCIe slot while retaining the nVidia (for all of his OF and OSX needs) in x8 PCIe slot (or any of the x4 slots), but I didn't get any reply since, and it's been like 3 weeks ago.

    On the other hand - I know a MorphOS developer that claims he's using a PCIe G5 with this kind of dual gfx card combo and it seems to works just fine.
  • »11.10.17 - 15:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Apple Radeon X1900GT cards [...] are fairly cheap.

    As outlined a month ago, this depends on your location.

    > I already have an Apple Nvidia 6600 and a Radeon HD 6750 in mine (currently connected
    > to two monitors, but I believe MorphOS could be implemented with one, or a switch).

    I think most modern monitors have multiple inputs. (And I'm not sure what "MorphOS could be implemented with one [monitor], or a switch" means anyway.)
  • »11.10.17 - 20:25
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the support would be like for Cube, read it works but not marketed that way.

    I see no problem listing the PowerMac11,2 as supported with a ****** comment saying that a supported graphics card must be installed.
  • »11.10.17 - 20:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I know a MorphOS developer that claims he's using a PCIe G5 with this kind of
    > dual gfx card combo and it seems to works just fine.

    So it's a non-issue apparently. Thanks for info.
  • »11.10.17 - 21:06
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