X1000 and A1222
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Well, I don't see this happening (G5 support) in the next release alongsidr X5000 support (IF we even get that).
    And 3.11 is likely to be a 'bug fix' release.
    Also, they have not stated that support for the 11,2 was even under consideration.
    I bought mine to run Linux, to have something to compare the X5000 to, because it's about the best PPC system released for single user applications, and on the off chance the support might happen.
    But if it doesn't, I still have a competent PPC Linux system.
    I don't know personally how valid the complaints about the X5000 are, but the expansion bus of the 970MP has a LOT of PCI-E lanes.

    [ Edited by Jim 26.09.2017 - 16:02 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.09.17 - 21:01
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9777 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the 970 isn't really a SOC.

    Yes, it's no SoC at all, not even a very basic one like the PA6T with its integrated memory controller (and Ethernet).

    > Hyper Transport...like AMD uses.

    Yes, and HyperTransport is already used by the CPC925/U3/U3H to connect to the PCI(-X) bridge in the currently supported AGP-based G5 PowerMacs.

    > The only reason I have heard for the delays related to 3.10 revolve around
    > the code that had to be replaced.

    So I guess there's no "IFF" to the X5000 support in MorphOS 3.10 :-)
  • »27.09.17 - 23:17
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Cool, and I used to know who invented Hyper Transport, but my memory isn't as strong as yours (which is why I mentioned AMD, but to the best of my knowledge, they are only a licensee).

    These new APUs will make a great addition to AMD's lineup. Ryzen only just competes with Intel's line up, but AMD's graphics are much better than Intels built in gpus.

    Did I misspell 'IF', wouldn't surprise me. ;-)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.09.17 - 23:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9777 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I used to know who invented Hyper Transport [...] (which is why I mentioned AMD,
    > but to the best of my knowledge, they are only a licensee).

    I'm not sure who invented it, but it was introduced in 2001 by the HyperTransport Consortium "founded in 2001 by Advanced Micro Devices, Alliance Semiconductor, Apple Computer, Broadcom Corporation, Cisco Systems, NVIDIA, PMC-Sierra, Sun Microsystems, and Transmeta".
  • »28.09.17 - 00:26
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I used to know who invented Hyper Transport [...] (which is why I mentioned AMD,
    > but to the best of my knowledge, they are only a licensee).

    I'm not sure who invented it, but it was introduced in 2001 by the HyperTransport Consortium "founded in 2001 by Advanced Micro Devices, Alliance Semiconductor, Apple Computer, Broadcom Corporation, Cisco Systems, NVIDIA, PMC-Sierra, Sun Microsystems, and Transmeta".


    Then most likely Sun.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »28.09.17 - 00:44
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 117 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > in October 1000 new AmigaOne A1222 boards will be released to the community.

    Hasn't this already been postponed to early 2018? They must be 3 years old by then.

    > Charge those users a $100 license fee

    I wouldn't find it fair to charge them more than Sam460 user (49 EUR).


    In July, 2017 interview Trevor said that he was "hopeful" that there would be an announcement
    by the end of 2017. If I can find anything more recent from the source, I'll post it.

    Source

    #6




    I promised to post anything new mentioned on this topic. Although not earth shattering, here it is.

    Trevor's most recent blog seems to basically repeat what he has said in the past:

    Quote:

    Although there is still some work needed to done on audio and Ethernet drivers before the AmigaOne A1222 can be commercially released, the FPU optimization appears to be progressing well.


    Nevertheless, apparently they are taking it to AmiWest and intend to do a demo.

    Quote:

    the plan is to show AmigaOS 4.1 running on the AmigaOne A1222 in a live public demonstration for the first time.


    Source for both quotes

    #6
  • »15.10.17 - 16:01
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    terminills
    Posts: 55 from 2012/3/12
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I used to know who invented Hyper Transport [...] (which is why I mentioned AMD,
    > but to the best of my knowledge, they are only a licensee).

    I'm not sure who invented it, but it was introduced in 2001 by the HyperTransport Consortium "founded in 2001 by Advanced Micro Devices, Alliance Semiconductor, Apple Computer, Broadcom Corporation, Cisco Systems, NVIDIA, PMC-Sierra, Sun Microsystems, and Transmeta".


    Then most likely Sun.



    It was originally developed by AMD/DEC.

    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/51158-api-networks-winds-down-engineering-shifts-to-amd



    [ Edited by terminills 16.10.2017 - 12:23 ]
  • »16.10.17 - 11:24
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Thanks, I knew AMD was a significant player in this, I just didn't realize that they were that big a part of it.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.10.17 - 15:45
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Hmm, I never would have predicted that.
    Looks like a bad decision on AMD's part as it could damage their future growth in laptops once the Ryzen based APUs hit.

    Then again, US companies have always foresaken long term goals for short term profit.

    And maybe I'll be using more Intel CPUs in the future (which might have happened anyway as I prefer discrete graphics cards).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.11.17 - 10:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9777 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I tried a pciex16 video card in pciex1 slot via a pciex1 to pciex16 adapter
    > but the X5000 would not boot any of the combinations that I tried. Primary
    > Card in pcix16 slot X5000 would not boot even with just the adapter and no
    > video card attached with the primary card in the pciex16 slot. Second card
    > in a pci slot with pci to pciex16 adapter would boot. Worked but was slow
    > under linux but crashed while workbench was starting up under AmigaOs 4.1

    Please allow me to link to the update you gave in another thread:
    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=12178&start=70
  • »13.12.17 - 19:48
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9777 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Addendum:

    > The P1022 on the Tabor/A1222 riddles me. [...] PCIe x4 + 2x SATA + GbE would
    > obviously require 7 SerDes lanes. Something seems not right here. Any ideas?

    Mystery solved, and the solution is foreheadslappingly easy: Just as with the newer T1022/T1042, the P1022 does not require any SerDes lanes for the GbE controller if in RGMII mode.
    What had me confused was the simplified P1022 block diagram which implies that the GbE controllers would only work with SerDes lanes assigned to them. Looking at a more detailed P1022 block diagram reveals that the SerDes lanes of the P1022 are assignable to SGMII-mode GbE, but not to RGMII-mode GbE (which is what is used on A1222/Tabor).
    The block diagrams of the P1022RDK board and the P1022DS board also illustrate this.
    So in conclusion, the 6 SerDes lanes of the P1022 supply the PCIe slot with 4 lanes and the two SATA2 ports with 1 lane each, and GbE is provided by the eTSEC/VeTSEC in RGMII mode.
  • »15.06.18 - 11:59
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Yeah...the diagrams are confusing as one shows interconnections between NIC, SATA, and PCI-E lanes.
    But that does seem to be the case, four Gen 1.0 PCI-E lanes to the A1222's video card slot.

    Which limits it to 1000 MBs, or less than half the bandwidth of AGP 8x.

    To put this in perspective, the X5000 has twice that bandwidth, or almost the same as AGP8x.

    Obviously our current G5's have AGP 8X's bandwidth.
    The 11,2 G5 has twice the bandwidth supplied to its video card slot than the X5000.

    Raptor Engineering's Talos II's video card slot, on the other hand, has slightly more than twenty-five times the bandwidth of the A1222 video card slot, and its spec exceeds the capabilities of current video cards.

    [ Edited by Jim 15.06.2018 - 09:14 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.18 - 14:13
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    bennymee
    Posts: 71 from 2004/4/14
    From: Netherlands
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > with a dual cpu (in the sense of a co processor) support this little thing should be
    > fast enough to handle every day stuff like browsing, [...] video

    AFAIK, using a second core or CPU as co-processor has not been announced for OS4 or MorphOS. And don't underestimate the workloads of modern browsing without JavaScript JIT and modern video without GPU-assisted decoding.


    Maybe not announced, but at least one of the Frieden brothers has a plan:


    http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1184
  • »15.06.18 - 15:04
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    bennymee wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > with a dual cpu (in the sense of a co processor) support this little thing should be
    > fast enough to handle every day stuff like browsing, [...] video

    AFAIK, using a second core or CPU as co-processor has not been announced for OS4 or MorphOS. And don't underestimate the workloads of modern browsing without JavaScript JIT and modern video without GPU-assisted decoding.


    Maybe not announced, but at least one of the Frieden brothers has a plan:


    http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1184


    Over three years later and still "on schedule and rocking". ;-)

    I wonder how many X1000 buyers still have faith that they will receive their free upgrade to an SMP enabled OS4.2 (at least in their lifetimes)?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.18 - 15:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9777 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Yeah...the diagrams are confusing as one shows interconnections
    > between NIC, SATA, and PCI-E lanes.

    Confusingly, that is the one which helped me to understand what really happens in the P1022 and on A1222/Tabor with regards to the GbE NIC ;-)
  • »15.06.18 - 16:47
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Yeah...the diagrams are confusing as one shows interconnections
    > between NIC, SATA, and PCI-E lanes.

    Confusingly, that is the one which helped me to understand what really happens in the P1022 and on A1222/Tabor with regards to the GbE NIC ;-)


    It's the one I referenced on the other websites, yeah.
    But you would think that they would have included the info in the technical documentation instead of a brief promo pdf.

    Still, 1000MBs is pretty underwhelming.
    The X5000 doubles that.

    Even Han we Ruiter has admitted it's going to limit what cards the A1222 will work well with.

    Then again, if they get drivers for the RX550, even if it's cpu limited, they will have a low power draw combo.

    Not that the X5000/20 draws that much more power, and an RX560 would work well with that.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.18 - 17:13
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9777 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > you would think that they would have included the info in the
    > technical documentation instead of a brief promo pdf.

    It definitely is in the reference manual and probably also in the data sheet, but both documents aren't accessible without NXP account. And while the detailed block diagram is in the publicly accessible fact sheet, I had never bothered to look there as Freescale/NXP fact sheets usually contain the very same block diagram as shown on the product web page (which isn't the case with the P1022 fact sheet and product web page, apparently).

    > Even Han we Ruiter has admitted it's going to limit what cards the A1222
    > will work well with.

    You mean it will work worse with high-end cards than with low-end cards?
  • »15.06.18 - 21:24
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >It definitely is in the reference manual and probably also in the data sheet

    I have access to those and can send you copies, I'd didn't see that diagram anywhere else.

    >> Even Han we Ruiter has admitted it's going to limit what cards the A1222
    >> will work well with.

    >You mean it will work worse with high-end cards than with low-end cards?

    I probably worded that less accurately than I should have. He seemed to think that some users would find the system more appropriate for something like an R5 240.

    I'm curious to find out how it will scale, under a more complex OS it wouldn't, but I would think that with the limited use of gpu hardware that Amiga like OS make that a faster gpu and memory would always be better.

    And the bandwidth limitations are the same for all cards.

    That slow a cpu combined with this bandwidth limitation would make higher end cards cpu limited under something like Windows.

    We won't really know how this hardware will perform until we see this hardware in the wild, but Hans did say he's not giving up his X1000.

    But my guess, an Rx550 or Rx560 might work, but something like an Rx580 would be a poorly thought out investment.

    You know, save the extra money, and buy a better system.

    All this just makes me more curious how a 11,2 G5 would perform.
    Better cpu, more PCI-E bandwidth, more efficient memory controller than an X5000 (let alone an A1222).



    [ Edited by Jim 15.06.2018 - 17:12 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.18 - 21:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9777 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> It definitely is in the reference manual and probably also in the data sheet

    > I'd didn't see that diagram anywhere else.

    Block diagrams alone aren't proper technical documentation anyway. Such things have to be (and surely are) properly documented in text form in the reference manual (and data sheet probably).
    Funnily, that P1022 SoC diagram is shown on the P1022DS board product page as board diagram. The real P1022DS board diagram is missing (that's why I linked it from another source above).

    > He seemed to think that some users would find the system more appropriate
    > for something like an R5 240.

    I read this comment he made regarding the use of GCN4/Polaris cards with A1222/Tabor:

    "Polaris cards cover the full range from low to high-end, just like their predecessors."
    https://keasigmadelta.com/blog/amigaos-graphics-survey-2018-rise-of-the-emulators/
  • »15.06.18 - 23:29
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> It definitely is in the reference manual and probably also in the data sheet

    > I'd didn't see that diagram anywhere else.

    Block diagrams alone aren't proper technical documentation anyway. Such things have to be (and surely are) properly documented in text form in the reference manual (and data sheet probably).
    Funnily, that P1022 SoC diagram is shown on the P1022DS board product page as board diagram. The real P1022DS board diagram is missing (that's why I linked it from another source above).

    > He seemed to think that some users would find the system more appropriate
    > for something like an R5 240.

    I read this comment he made regarding the use of GCN4/Polaris cards with A1222/Tabor:

    "Polaris cards cover the full range from low to high-end, just like their predecessors."
    https://keasigmadelta.com/blog/amigaos-graphics-survey-2018-rise-of-the-emulators/


    Of course they do, its not like the A1222 is the only system that you could use a Polaris card in (and there are lower end cards), and if someone wants to pay as much for their video card as the do for their board, isn't that up to them?
    Rationality or economic sense never dictated anything in this community.
    I just don't think a P1022 will drive a high end card as well as a more powerful Soc.

    I'm pretty sure that contention is provable, but I don't know how you'd separate the performance improvement of the more capable, faster cpu, from the higher bandwidth interconnects provide by the Soc.

    If this is anything like other OS', as resolutions scale up, even with better video cards, the less competent processor is going to see diminishing returns.
    Better performance, but gains throttled by cpu limitations.

    At this point 1080P resolutions are kind of expected by the general public.
    How well do you think an A1222 will do at this resolution? No matter what you put in it.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.06.18 - 00:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9777 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> He seemed to think that some users would find the system
    >>> more appropriate for something like an R5 240.

    >> I read this comment he made regarding the use of GCN4/Polaris
    >> cards with A1222/Tabor: "Polaris cards cover the full range
    >> from low to high-end, just like their predecessors."

    > Of course they do, its not like the A1222 is the only system that
    > you could use a Polaris card in (and there are lower end cards),
    > and if someone wants to pay as much for their video card as the
    > do for their board, isn't that up to them?

    I meant it the other way round, namely that he seems to think that there are GCN4/Polaris cards low-end enough to be a good fit for the P1022 so that the P1022 isn't (much of) a bottleneck for the graphics card.

    > I just don't think a P1022 will drive a high end card as well as a
    > more powerful Soc.

    Yes, that's why there a low-end GCN4/Polaris cards.

    > I don't know how you'd separate the performance improvement of
    > the more capable, faster cpu, from the higher bandwidth interconnects
    > provide by the Soc.

    The typical test case to separate the influences of CPU and GPU on the overall performance result would be to test each CPU with each GPU, i.e. 4 combinations in case of 2 CPUs and 2 GPUs.

    > as resolutions scale up, even with better video cards, the less competent
    > processor is going to see diminishing returns. Better performance, but
    > gains throttled by cpu limitations. At this point 1080P resolutions are kind
    > of expected by the general public. How well do you think an A1222 will do
    > at this resolution?

    In case you refer to 3D gaming:
    The result depends on how well the 1.2 GHz e500v2 (one core for Amiga-like OS, two cores for multithreaded games on Linux) can cope with the required calculations for the game logic, which are independant from the resolution. This is assuming the resolution is below the resolution where the fill rate of the GPU is reached (otherwise the GPU becomes the bottleneck).

    In case you refer to video decoding:
    The result depends on the UVD support of the OS. An OS with UVD support like Linux will do fine even with a low-end GPU. An OS without UVD support (as well as for the 2nd CPU core) will do badly even with a high-end GPU as not supporting UVD means the CPU will have to do the H264 1080p decoding which a single 1.2 GHz e500v2 core cannot do in realtime.
  • »17.06.18 - 10:53
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4604 from 2009/1/28
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    >I meant it the other way round, namely that he seems to think that there are GCN4/Polaris cards low-end enough to be a good fit for the P1022 so that the P1022 isn't (much of) a bottleneck for the graphics card.

    Yes. That's the better way of framing it.
    Honestly, were it not for the non-standard fpu, the e500v2 wouldn't be that bad.
    The integer performance of the A1222 should be better than previous AMCC based boards.

    But with our established based of dirt cheap G4 equipment, that fpu issue is a deal breaker.

    >This is assuming the resolution is below the resolution where the fill rate of the GPU is reached (otherwise the GPU becomes the bottleneck).

    Yes, that is the relevant qualifier, I'd assume A1222 owners would use video cards with relatively recently generation gpus (at least GCN).

    From what I've seen, there is enough of jump in performance at the bottom end for that resolution to be practical.
    That why I agree with you that we need to move to support GCN, for the low end boost.
    The jump from R5 230 to R5 240 is much bigger than the numerical change would seem to indicate.

    The problem that will pop up IS with video decoding. One core at 1.2 GHz without gpu assist and like most of the low end Qorlq Socs, no AltiVec? Our G5s struggle with HD video.

    Full screen video at 1080P resolutions on an A1222 seems virtually impossible.

    UVD support?

    I wonder how well that is documented under Linux.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »18.06.18 - 00:04
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