MOS 3.10 PM G5 Modell 11.2
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cego
    Posts: 549 from 2006/5/28
    From: Germany
    und der X5000 ist stromsparender ;)
  • »26.09.17 - 14:45
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > except for new system buyers, I don't see the logic in using GCN cards

    So you do see the logic for new system buyers. Fine :-)

    > there a lot of 5000 and 6000 series cards at bargain prices right now
    > that will absolutely fly under an NG OS.

    Again, my point is neither about price nor about performance. It's just about what's 3D-supported by OS4 and thus sold with new OS4-compatible systems that happen to be (or will be) supported by MorphOS as well.

    >> Programs don't talk to the graphics card drivers directly. There's at
    >> least one level of abstraction in between, so I think the graphic
    >> primitives can be different between drivers for different GPU generations.

    > True, most graphics operations run through TinyGL

    I don't think they do. While Ambient's effects (Enhanced Display) do use 3D functions of the GPU, they do not require a TinyGL driver.

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11275&forum=12&start=6

    The abstraction layer I was referring to is the 2D one called CyberGraphX/Cybergraphics (they can't agree to one definite name it seems).

    >>> a well written MorphOS driver for these cards will easily allow our G4 systems to
    >>> step all over Tabor

    >>...except in 3D operations.

    > Yeah, even if we get AGP R600 and R700 support, 5000-7000 (and later GCN) cards
    > will have a distinct advantage

    Also here I was not talking about performance but about the existence of 3D support, which OS4 provides for GCN1 (Southern Islands) GPUs.

    > I'm beginning to wonder how well Tabor will work with its graphics cards.
    > The P1022 has only SIX SerDes lanes which must drive the NIC, SATA, AND
    > PCI-E interfaces.

    Yes, and when you think of it, PCIe x4 + 2x SATA + GbE would require 7 SerDes lanes, wouldn't it? See there for a more detailed elaboration of Tabor's P1022 SerDes assignment conundrum ;-)

    >> Unfortunately, we don't have the data to be able to subtract out the
    >> X1000 users from this

    > I don't know what X1000 owners have upgraded to

    It's irrelevant as MorphOS won't support the X1000 :-) The reason I'd want to subtract out the X1000 owners is to see what the Sam460 owners have (X5000 owners all use GCN-based cards, no doubt).

    > I'm not sure either could best a Radeon HD 6870

    To me it's not about "best", but about when the GPUs used in MorphOS-supported machines (that aren't currently used with MorphOS by their owner) will be supported by MorphOS. The sooner the better I'd say. And to a lesser degree it's about 3D support :-)

    > We need to provide support for the hardware they have, if we want them to try MorphOS.

    Exactly! :-) And this includes the GPUs, of course.

    > GCN cards will eventually be supported.

    Yes, I'm confident they will. I'm just not sure every generation before them must be supported ;-)
  • »26.09.17 - 16:13
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the Radeon 9200 that was our top supported card just a few years ago

    The Radeon 9200 was never the fastest R200-based card ;-)

    > these drivers will be vital to the X64 fork

    All the more incentive to skip some generations I'd say :-)
  • »26.09.17 - 16:39
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > the Radeon 9200 that was our top supported card just a few years ago

    The Radeon 9200 was never the fastest R200-based card ;-)

    > these drivers will be vital to the X64 fork

    All the more incentive to skip some generations I'd say :-)


    Yes, actually if you want to split hairs, it's not even an R200 card.
    Although I lump everything from the 8500 to the 9200 in that category/generation.
    And that would leave you're best choices as the 8500 or 9100.

    As to skipping earlier generations, I like having the option of using cards that came before the GCN cards.
    They offer a good value for your money.
    And they're easier to get working under Linux.
    But, we should see GCN eventually, nothing is ever on a timetable, so we've got to be patient and wait at least 'two weeks'.
  • »26.09.17 - 21:11
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > actually if you want to split hairs, it's not even an R200 card. Although
    > I lump everything from the 8500 to the 9200 in that category/generation.

    As do I (including the 9250). "R(V)2x0" seems too awkward ;-) And Wikipedia does it too, after all.

    > that would leave you're best choices as the 8500 or 9100.

    Yes, with the 8500 as the "top supported card just a few years ago". The 9100 is just a renamed 8500 LE.
  • »27.09.17 - 03:30
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1103 from 2003/6/17
    lmao.. Jim you sound as if you're entitled to something.. "Jim wants this.. Jim wants that.".. pick up a fuckin book, educate yourself and start coding. lmao.
  • »27.09.17 - 13:05
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    Kronos
    Posts: 1674 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Finally, these drivers will be vital to the X64 fork,


    The only drivers that are "vital" for ab X64 port are for those "Radeons" AMD puts inside the CPU these days, cos that the only way we would be able to use MorphX64 on laptops and miniITX systems.

    If I had to use an ATX for some other reason, I wouldn't mind stuffing something like a 9600 into it.......
  • »27.09.17 - 14:25
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Finally, these drivers will be vital to the X64 fork,


    The only drivers that are "vital" for ab X64 port are for those "Radeons" AMD puts inside the CPU these days, cos that the only way we would be able to use MorphX64 on laptops and miniITX systems.

    If I had to use an ATX for some other reason, I wouldn't mind stuffing something like a 9600 into it.......




    You know, I haven't even checked the specs on the latest integrated CPUs, but the older gpus were all Terascale.
    So maybe driver support for gpus before the GCN cards makes sense in light of that.
    But I haven't checked the specs of the Ryzen CPUs with integrated graphics, because while they have been announced, they aren't going to be available any time soon.
    AMD just released a Socket AM4 CPU with integrated graphics, but it uses their one of their older CPU designs.


    [ Edited by Jim 27.09.2017 - 11:27 ]
  • »27.09.17 - 16:21
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    lmao.. Jim you sound as if you're entitled to something.. "Jim wants this.. Jim wants that.".. pick up a fuckin book, educate yourself and start coding. lmao.


    I've never insisted on anything, I just go with the flow.
    Personally, I was in favor of a shift to ARM, but the developers are going with X64, so I'll follow - they lead.
    And MorphOS isn't documented enough (in a book or via electronic documentation) to just start coding.
    And even if it was, I don't think I'll ever be able to code at the level some of the developers are at.
    If you think you can, you try it.

    [ Edited by Jim 27.09.2017 - 11:28 ]
  • »27.09.17 - 16:26
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I haven't even checked the specs on the latest integrated CPUs, but the older gpus
    > were all Terascale.

    GPUs in AMD APUs are GCN-based since 2013 (Jaguar with GCN2). Current Excavator-based APUs use GCN3-based GPUs, and announced (Q4/2017) Zen-based Ryzen Mobile (Raven Ridge) APUs are going to use GCN5-based Vega GPUs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit#Graphics_Core_Next-based_GPU

    > So maybe driver support for gpus before the GCN cards makes sense in light of that.

    Only for APUs from 2012 (Piledriver) and earlier.

    > they aren't going to be available any time soon.

    Q4/2017 doesn't sound too far away.

    > AMD just released a Socket AM4 CPU with integrated graphics, but it uses
    > their one of their older CPU designs.

    Yes, the Excavator-based A6-9550 with GCN3-based GPU.


    Well that shows you how much I paid to that announcement, DDR4 enabled Excavator CPU, pretty pointless.

    So...in light of the shift to GCN gpus, one more point for your argument, BUT your still getting R600 up to the 6000 series first. 😁
    Because it's Mark's call.

    You know the reason I don't push on features anymore?

    Because I'm suspicious that part of the reason we haven't received 11,2 support is that I pissed off Frank about it a couple of years ago misinterpreting his statement that it wouldn't take long to do, as a statement that it would happen.

    It could just be hubris on my part, that assumption, but I did piss him off.
    It could very well be that the primary reason is supporting too many model.
    But if I screwed this up for the rest of you...
    Anyway, no suggestions, no questions, I just take what's offered.

    Part of what kind of teed me off about that comment about learning to code.
    I DON'T insist on anything, ocassionally politely ask, but I'm as clueless as the next guy about the future.
    And I don't ask questions anymore.

    [ Edited by Jim 27.09.2017 - 17:13 ]
  • »27.09.17 - 22:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1787 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    And MorphOS isn't documented enough (in a book or via electronic documentation) to just start coding.


    While I don't think everyone must be a coder there are quite some ways to code for MorphOS. Not for every taste and language (I failed with MUI and C++ when I tried), but with C MorphOS is pretty well documented, albeit not necessarily comfortable.
    Or Hollywood - simple, well documented with brilliant support. Not suited to develop drivers or such, but you can develop really nice and different things with it. .


    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 28.09.2017 - 00:49 ]
  • »27.09.17 - 23:10
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I'm suspicious that part of the reason we haven't received 11,2 support is that I pissed
    > off Frank about it a couple of years ago misinterpreting his statement that it wouldn't
    > take long to do, as a statement that it would happen. It could just be hubris on my part,
    > that assumption

    Yes, I very much think it is ;-)

    > if I screwed this up for the rest of you...

    I doubt you did.
  • »27.09.17 - 23:28
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I'm suspicious that part of the reason we haven't received 11,2 support is that I pissed
    > off Frank about it a couple of years ago misinterpreting his statement that it wouldn't
    > take long to do, as a statement that it would happen. It could just be hubris on my part,
    > that assumption

    Yes, I very much think it is ;-)

    > if I screwed this up for the rest of you...

    I doubt you did.


    I doubt it too, primarily because I don't think Frank Mariak would consider something like that (AND it inflates my place in the general universal scheme of things).
    But I take it to heart when I disappoint people.

    BTW - Thanks for the info on the Ryzen w/ integrated graphics release.
    I thought that wasn't happening until Spring '018, at the earliest.

    And that bridge cpu is an ugly thing when AMD has something better in its toolbox.
  • »27.09.17 - 23:41
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Thanks for the info on the Ryzen w/ integrated graphics release.
    > I thought that wasn't happening until Spring '018, at the earliest.

    It seems there's going to be two different Zen-based Raven Ridge APUs, one for mobile and one for desktop (AM4). The mobile one is due Q4/2017 and what I referred to, while the desktop one is due Q1/2018 and probably what you referred to.

    http://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/original/2017/09/Roadmap-pcgh.png
  • »28.09.17 - 00:17
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
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    Damn, I was getting psyched about that.
    Oh well, we could see some Ryzen based laptops soon, and that will mess with Intel's dominance of the laptop market, so things could get interesting.
  • »28.09.17 - 14:08
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2456 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Damn, I was getting psyched about that.
    Oh well, we could see some Ryzen based laptops soon, and that will mess with Intel's dominance of the laptop market, so things could get interesting.


    I haven't followed what is going on with Ryzen CPU's, other than the fact I have read the name a few places, and read a bit of excitement from a few writers, so I don't know how they compare in performance, or how cheap they will be. It would be exciting to have a new version of MorphOS for x64 with advanced features and SMP (is memory protection too much to ask for as well?), running on a brand new mobile Ryzen CPU powered laptop, in the not too distant future.

    Interesting times ahead, indeed!
  • »29.09.17 - 00:15
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Damn, I was getting psyched about that.
    Oh well, we could see some Ryzen based laptops soon, and that will mess with Intel's dominance of the laptop market, so things could get interesting.


    I haven't followed what is going on with Ryzen CPU's, other than the fact I have read the name a few places, and read a bit of excitement from a few writers, so I don't know how they compare in performance, or how cheap they will be. It would be exciting to have a new version of MorphOS for x64 with advanced features and SMP (is memory protection too much to ask for as well?), running on a brand new mobile Ryzen CPU powered laptop, in the not too distant future.

    Interesting times ahead, indeed!


    Well, I think Mark mentioned that his compile times for Odyssey would be reduced significantly with an Ryzen 7 1800X (I memory could be off, but I think it was something like 30 minutes less).
    The processors don't give AMD parity, but they are competitive.
    Intel still has an edge in gaming and single threaded applications.
    But when you factor in cost, they are extremely attractive.

    The questions I have in regard to the APUs, are how many cores and which gpus (will they throw together).

    The specific processor I mentioned that Mark had his eye on? Retail is about $500, but I've seen it list for less. And a comparable Intel cpu would retail for about twice that.
  • »29.09.17 - 01:12
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