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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 272 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    I'd honestly prefer to add C# support rather than Java. Still, I'm afraid there isn't the manpower to add and maintain another language. 3.10 will add support for a different language though.


    I'd be fine with C#, too.

    The language is one thing. The API another.

    I'm not an unexperienced programmer. I do this for my income. I program in a number of languages and APIs.
    But this old API throws me off, too. That's just not how you program anymore today. Win32API is also still used today for certain things. But it was largely relieved by .Net. And Man, Win32API is such a shit.


    Manfred
  • »28.08.17 - 15:11
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 272 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    I'd honestly prefer to add C# support rather than Java. Still, I'm afraid there isn't the manpower to add and maintain another language. 3.10 will add support for a different language though.


    The question also, where does the manpower go to.
    Why is there a port for X5000 being done when MorphOS has lot of hardware, in contrast to AOS4.
    In my opinion that's a waste of resources (Jim will probably intervene).


    Manfred
  • »28.08.17 - 15:16
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 1490 from 2003/3/5
    From: Canada
    Quote:

    asrael22 wrote:
    The question also, where does the manpower go to.



    It doesn't really work like that. Hardware guys don't (usually) jump to make UIs, and UI guys don't (usually) end up working on drivers. And that's for the best ;)
  • »28.08.17 - 16:15
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 272 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Certainly. Those are different areas of expertise.
  • »28.08.17 - 16:26
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 272 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    asrael22 wrote:
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    I'd honestly prefer to add C# support rather than Java. Still, I'm afraid there isn't the manpower to add and maintain another language. 3.10 will add support for a different language though.


    I'd be fine with C#, too.



    Although I didn't mean Java as the language but Java as the runtime.
    I'm not particularly fond of Java the language myself. But you can program in a number of languages on the JVM.


    Manfred
  • »28.08.17 - 16:28
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1103 from 2003/6/17
    Maybe a bounty can be setup for it? But would jamiga / java be the right language to target? Maybe something that once done is pretty much static?

    Or a nice "Visual" type development IDE that makes designing GUI's/apps quick. Like a Visual C++ or something like that.

    I'm sure there are people who think a "Visual <language>" type IDE isnt needed, but there is. Nobody wants to waste time learning obscure stuff like MUI or so on. Something all in one. An IDE that makes it easier to build an app and run it right away to see the results, debug etc. "But you can design stuff with MUIbuilder (?)" etc then add C code to it. Its too 90s. People dont want to spend the time developing on something that requires reading docs from years ago. Stuff thats hard to interpret or search for websites, maybe finding an answer to a question here or there. I'm just rambling. Maybe making excuses for myself as to why I'm not coding, I dunno.

    [ Edited by TheMagicM 29.08.2017 - 11:27 ]
  • »29.08.17 - 17:15
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    polluks
    Posts: 294 from 2007/10/23
    From: Gelsenkirchen,...
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    The question also, where does the manpower go to.


    Native email clients, two are not enough SCNR
    Pegasos II G4: MorphOS 3.9, Zalman M220W
    Power Mac G3: OSX 10.3 · PowerBook 5,8: OSX 10.5, MorphOS 3.9
  • »29.08.17 - 17:33
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    polluks
    Posts: 294 from 2007/10/23
    From: Gelsenkirchen,...
    Quote:

    TheMagicM schrieb:
    Its too 90s.

    RAD? What about Hollywood?
    Pegasos II G4: MorphOS 3.9, Zalman M220W
    Power Mac G3: OSX 10.3 · PowerBook 5,8: OSX 10.5, MorphOS 3.9
  • »29.08.17 - 17:37
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1787 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    polluks schrieb:
    Quote:

    TheMagicM schrieb:
    Its too 90s.

    RAD? What about Hollywood?


    Indeed. Hollywood with rapagui or muiroyale is pretty useful. It's basically lua with a few (rather good) changes and a pretty powerful function Library. As often said by me: not the answer for all things, but good for quite many things.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »29.08.17 - 20:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2456 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    Maybe a bounty can be setup for it? But would jamiga / java be the right language to target? Maybe something that once done is pretty much static?

    Or a nice "Visual" type development IDE that makes designing GUI's/apps quick. Like a Visual C++ or something like that.

    I'm sure there are people who think a "Visual <language>" type IDE isnt needed, but there is. Nobody wants to waste time learning obscure stuff like MUI or so on. Something all in one. An IDE that makes it easier to build an app and run it right away to see the results, debug etc. "But you can design stuff with MUIbuilder (?)" etc then add C code to it. Its too 90s. People dont want to spend the time developing on something that requires reading docs from years ago. Stuff thats hard to interpret or search for websites, maybe finding an answer to a question here or there. I'm just rambling. Maybe making excuses for myself as to why I'm not coding, I dunno.


    Read the post right before yours quoted above. The suggestion is not to port the Java language, but the runtime Java Virtual Machine, which many programming languages run on. (if I am understanding the discussion correctly)

    For simple stuff, take Zylesea's advice (and mine) and try learning Hollywood with Hollywood Designer, Rapagui and MuiRoyale, as well as all its other plug-ins and libraries. Hollywood has an impressive amount of documentation, and many examples to read and look at too. It might not be quite as easy as "Visual Basic", or some other visual language, but it is pretty good, according to many people using it, and from what I have seen and read.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »29.08.17 - 23:39
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1103 from 2003/6/17
    Yea... I saw that. About $200. If there was a demo I can download of V7 with Designer, that would give me a good test drive of whether I'd spend $200 on it.
  • »30.08.17 - 02:12
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 885 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    polluks wrote:
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    The question also, where does the manpower go to.

    Native email clients, two are not enough SCNR

    Not even close to being enough.
  • »30.08.17 - 04:16
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 885 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    Or a nice "Visual" type development IDE that makes designing GUI's/apps quick. Like a Visual C++ or something like that.

    I'm sure there are people who think a "Visual <language>" type IDE isnt needed, but there is. Nobody wants to waste time learning obscure stuff like MUI or so on. Something all in one. An IDE that makes it easier to build an app and run it right away to see the results, debug etc. "But you can design stuff with MUIbuilder (?)" etc then add C code to it. Its too 90s. People dont want to spend the time developing on something that requires reading docs from years ago. Stuff thats hard to interpret or search for websites, maybe finding an answer to a question here or there. I'm just rambling. Maybe making excuses for myself as to why I'm not coding, I dunno.

    You are certainly conflating a lot of different things that are not necessarily related to one another. If you would like to write software for an obscure operating system without using any obscure APIs, which feels mildly paradoxical, then going for a high-level option such as Hollywood seems like the right fit.
  • »30.08.17 - 04:28
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 885 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    Yea... I saw that. About $200. If there was a demo I can download of V7 with Designer, that would give me a good test drive of whether I'd spend $200 on it.

    I assume Hollywood Designer might not be quite what you might think it is.

    However, RapaGUI should make it easy enough to create simple user interfaces that look and feel native on MorphOS as well as they do on MacOS or Windows. There is also extensive documentation and an active online forum.

    Plus, it meets the criteria that you should not have to deal with MUI on a MUI-based operating system :-) (Otherwise, MUI Royale would be worth a serious look as Zylesea mentioned.)
  • »30.08.17 - 04:53
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 272 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Quote:

    polluks wrote:
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    The question also, where does the manpower go to.

    Native email clients, two are not enough SCNR

    Not even close to being enough.


    Can you elaborate?
  • »30.08.17 - 06:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2456 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    Yea... I saw that. About $200. If there was a demo I can download of V7 with Designer, that would give me a good test drive of whether I'd spend $200 on it.


    I think you can download the 900+ pages of pdf manuals, and look for youtube videos of people using it, or things they have created with it, or you can probably find another Amiga user near you, that has already bought it, who can demonstrate it to you. As far as I know, there is no downloadable demo version of Hollywood and Hollywood Designer.

    From what you have written so far, it seems to me that Hollywood, plus all of its plug-ins, is the right fit for your programming needs, if you want to create content for any of the Amiga and Amiga inspired platforms. You get the bonus of being able to also write once, and compile for many other platforms as well, such as Windows, Linux, MacOSX, Android, and possibly iOS (not sure about this last platform option).

    I have been preparing for a long time, for the time when I have both the free time, and free energy to get serious about learning to program (or improving what little programming skills I once had). I have looked at many different programming choices, read books on "C" and a little about "C++", thought about learning Amiga E (and using PortablE), bought more books than I can remember, as well as programming tools, like "Cubic IDE", Storm C v4 and Mesa (the last versions available shortly after, or just before Commodore went bankrupt), and on and on and on. I have decided that Hollywood makes the best sense for myself, so I am a bit biased in recommending it to you, but with good reasons, as I have done a ton of research to back up my choice to use it, and for recommending it to others.

    I'm sure you can find enough information, or some friend/fellow Amiga user, who can demo Hollywood for you, so that you can make up your mind about buying it. I certainly feel that it is well worth the investment of $200, and I am constantly amazed at how much, and how fast Hollywood is improved and added to, by "The hardest working programmers in the Amiga community", or what ever their slogan is.

    Try it, you'll like it!
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »30.08.17 - 07:26
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 272 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    Yea... I saw that. About $200. If there was a demo I can download of V7 with Designer, that would give me a good test drive of whether I'd spend $200 on it.


    I think you can download the 900+ pages of pdf manuals, and look for youtube videos of people using it, or things they have created with it, or you can probably find another Amiga user near you, that has already bought it, who can demonstrate it to you. As far as I know, there is no downloadable demo version of Hollywood and Hollywood Designer.

    From what you have written so far, it seems to me that Hollywood, plus all of its plug-ins, is the right fit for your programming needs, if you want to create content for any of the Amiga and Amiga inspired platforms. You get the bonus of being able to also write once, and compile for many other platforms as well, such as Windows, Linux, MacOSX, Android, and possibly iOS (not sure about this last platform option).

    I have been preparing for a long time, for the time when I have both the free time, and free energy to get serious about learning to program (or improving what little programming skills I once had). I have looked at many different programming choices, read books on "C" and a little about "C++", thought about learning Amiga E (and using PortablE), bought more books than I can remember, as well as programming tools, like "Cubic IDE", Storm C v4 and Mesa (the last versions available shortly after, or just before Commodore went bankrupt), and on and on and on. I have decided that Hollywood makes the best sense for myself, so I am a bit biased in recommending it to you, but with good reasons, as I have done a ton of research to back up my choice to use it, and for recommending it to others.

    I'm sure you can find enough information, or some friend/fellow Amiga user, who can demo Hollywood for you, so that you can make up your mind about buying it. I certainly feel that it is well worth the investment of $200, and I am constantly amazed at how much, and how fast Hollywood is improved and added to, by "The hardest working programmers in the Amiga community", or what ever their slogan is.

    Try it, you'll like it!


    Depending on what you plan to do and where you come from, Hollywood is probably a good fit.
    I believe the learning curve is relatively flat.
    The language is relatively simple.



    Manfred

    [ Edited by asrael22 30.08.2017 - 08:39 ]
  • »30.08.17 - 07:37
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  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 888 from 2004/9/23
    MorphOS 3.10 comes with a very nice IDE using all the features the OS provides.

    No longer dealing with problems or issues related to some 68K emulation or the wrong compiler setup. Everything made to work together on any MorphOS System.

    Speaking of EMail clients. I dropped them a long time ago, because I was fed up with the shit. (Basically YAM). Years no update and then it fails. You go for the betas and it forces you to update nearly every week for some mui classes that are only installed for this application and obsolete in general. When the MorphOS version crashed for weeks on launch because nobody cared about (and tested) the native version, i quit. Dealing with blackmail requesters like "if you continue you will be stuck with this shitty version unless we tend to fix something. And don´t forget this application will timeout anyway, so keep on updating to find even more bugs that will anoy you." was another motivation for this step.

    That is the reason we need a *proper* mail client. Having a mail client that uses all features of the system and not on some fancy wannabe GUI system with broken features. Something that is tested. Something the MorphOS Team has control over.

    This is my personal experience. You may have a different experience. No one is forced to use the "official MorphOS" on, but I am looking forward to use it.
  • »30.08.17 - 11:09
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1674 from 2003/2/24
    /me hands Geit a Coo^H^H^H Haribo-Snail....

    Kept using some 2001 68020 YAM-build till pink T stopped providing POP3, not sure I will bother with any traditional EMail client ever again.

    FlowStudio might address some issues with makefiles and so, but it does nothing when it comes to having to write 20k of boilerplate MUI code for a basic GUI.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »30.08.17 - 12:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1103 from 2003/6/17
    Quote:

    geit wrote:

    MorphOS 3.10 comes with a very nice IDE using all the features the OS provides.

    No longer dealing with problems or issues related to some 68K emulation or the wrong compiler setup. Everything made to work together on any MorphOS System.



    GAAHHH!!! 3.10! I'm not going to ask when it will be released or a list of changes we should expect. Nope, not going to do it. Not going to ask. LOL

    @asrael / amigadave:

    I'm not really concerned with C/C++ development. I've done a few things that are cli based but get frustrated with MUI so I just leave it alone. As far as Hollywood goes, lol, nobody I know from the very very very small (was there enough "very" in the previous??) Amiga group here in Texas has Hollywood. Actually last night I looked at Youtube vids but I didnt see anything other than an asteroid game & a window showing some gfx. I want to see a MUI builder being used and a decent app written w/Hollywood. I looked thru aminet for "hollywood" but didnt find any robust software written with it. However, I am impressed with Hollywood being able to run the same app on Linux.
  • »30.08.17 - 12:49
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1787 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    TheMagicM schrieb:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > try learning Hollywood with Hollywood Designer [...]

    Using Hollywood Designer has nothing to do with programming.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_(programming_language)#Hollywood_Designer


    So what I would need is Hollywood + MUI Royale (download from Airsoft) and thats pretty much it.


    If you download the MUI Royale/RapaGUI plugin it comes with a few examples. They each consist of an xml file which lays out the GUI interface and a hws file which contains the actual Hollywood code. If you are a bit interested in Hollywood I recommend to join the Hollywood forum @ http://forums.hollywood-mal.com/

    You can read the examples and documentation and ask questions before a purchase. And one of the really good things of Hollywood is the brilliant support by Andreas. He's really very helpful.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »30.08.17 - 13:27
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 272 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    geit wrote:

    MorphOS 3.10 comes with a very nice IDE using all the features the OS provides.

    No longer dealing with problems or issues related to some 68K emulation or the wrong compiler setup. Everything made to work together on any MorphOS System.



    That's good to hear.
    I'm aware of the new language. Better than C/C++. But can still improve.

    Should be relatively simple to start new projects without having to spend a ton of time with manually editing makefile, etc.

    And, I'd really like to see the API documentation for MorphOS in one place as HTML, AmigaGuide or whatever.


    Manfred
  • »30.08.17 - 14:56
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1674 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    asrael22 wrote:

    And, I'd really like to see the API documentation for MorphOS in one place as HTML, AmigaGuide or whatever.


    Manfred


    That has been the case for some time, even with the public SDK.

    Scribble does highlight keywords, and clicking on them will jump you into an amigaguide file.

    Not sure how complete that tree of files was (it seems pretty complete in what I have here).

    Problem is that documentation for some functions are only stubs. These are mostly old Amiga API ones, so it might be helpfull to have the "Includes&Autodocs" from an old AmigaDeveloperCD handy.

    [ Edited by Kronos 30.08.2017 - 16:06 ]
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »30.08.17 - 15:06
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