Vampire sales pass the 4,000 mark!!!
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 871 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    First, as a sidenote, I think it's amusing to see the difference between the European views and some American views. I.e. in most of Europe we have the idea that ultimately it's a societys responsibility to protect the weak, cure the sick, etc. Or like the topic here, consumer protection (for legal guarantee is about consumer protection). While some people across the waters look at these things as "oppressive regulations".
    :-?


    You are forgetting that the few guys coding the Apollo core, and the 2 or 3 others who were responsible for designing and soldering the boards, are NOT a "company selling to consumers", they are more like "hobbyists, selling to other hobbyists". The consumer protection laws being discussed in this thread can be very oppressive for hobbyists, and one or two man groups who are inventing new hardware. I don't think this point of view is any different from an American, than it is from at least some Europeans.


    You keep using that word "oppression" Dave, I don't think it means what you think it means.

    "Inconvenient" (for the seller) might be a better choice of word.
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  • »11.07.17 - 18:17
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1752 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    amigadave schrieb:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    First, as a sidenote, I think it's amusing to see the difference between the European views and some American views. I.e. in most of Europe we have the idea that ultimately it's a societys responsibility to protect the weak, cure the sick, etc. Or like the topic here, consumer protection (for legal guarantee is about consumer protection). While some people across the waters look at these things as "oppressive regulations".
    :-?


    You are forgetting that the few guys coding the Apollo core, and the 2 or 3 others who were responsible for designing and soldering the boards, are NOT a "company selling to consumers", they are more like "hobbyists, selling to other hobbyists". The consumer protection laws being discussed in this thread can be very oppressive for hobbyists, and one or two man groups who are inventing new hardware. I don't think this point of view is any different from an American, than it is from at least some Europeans.

    There's no such thing as hobbyists selling stuff to other hobbyists in the EU. The only exception is selling used stuff at flea market. All other sales must be cone with a registered business and then all these CE, RoHS, WEEE, warranty things apply from sale #1 on. Europe is not particularly founder friendly.
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  • »11.07.17 - 22:11
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4026 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    There's no such thing as hobbyists selling stuff to other hobbyists in the EU. The only exception is selling used stuff at flea market. All other sales must be cone with a registered business and then all these CE, RoHS, WEEE, warranty things apply from sale #1 on. Europe is not particularly founder friendly.




    Sounds like a PITA.
    Then again, how do European regulators cope with hobbyists providing each other with hardware at cost?
    In the US wee wouldn't even consider that a sale, more like compensation for an expense or a transfer of goods w/o profit.
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  • »12.07.17 - 01:27
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 871 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    There's no such thing as hobbyists selling stuff to other hobbyists in the EU. The only exception is selling used stuff at flea market. All other sales must be cone with a registered business and then all these CE, RoHS, WEEE, warranty things apply from sale #1 on. Europe is not particularly founder friendly.




    Sounds like a PITA.
    Then again, how do European regulators cope with hobbyists providing each other with hardware at cost?
    In the US wee wouldn't even consider that a sale, more like compensation for an expense or a transfer of goods w/o profit.


    Imagine the electronic device you made and sold that hasn't been tested to comply with safety standards exploded one night and burned down the house and everyone in it died in the blaze.

    You'd be held liable for causing the fire and the manslaughter of the victims probably.

    The right of people to live in peace and safety trump the right of others to sell junk.
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  • »12.07.17 - 08:30
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 848 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    There's no such thing as hobbyists selling stuff to other hobbyists in the EU.

    Well, there are cases of items being sold as either "non-operational" and / or purely for "decorative purposes", which allows to circumvent certain restrictions / obligations that would otherwise apply.

    That said, electronics are very special in the sense that a) they can potentially hurt people / pose a fire hazard even while not in use, b) they can severely interfere with other electronics devices, and c) often include many dangerous materials that need to be properly deposed so they do not cause harm to the environment / people.

    Are there any good reasons to exclude anybody who plans to sell electronics from being required to test and guarantuee proper operation or from ensuring the cost of proper waste disposal is included in the price of goods? If there are any, how do you ensure they do not get exploited on a large scale?

    Quote:

    The only exception is selling used stuff at flea market. All other sales must be cone with a registered business and then all these CE, RoHS, WEEE, warranty things apply from sale #1 on. Europe is not particularly founder friendly.

    Any diverse region with a similar amount of countries and languages would be difficult to navigate for entrepreneurs aiming to sell their physical goods in as many areas as possible. I am not sure Europe is really special in that sense.

    Furthermore, even in single countries like the US you have substantial differences with regard to the waste regulations in individual states (see California display recycling fee).
  • »12.07.17 - 08:42
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1752 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    ASiegel schrieb:
    [


    A company like Apple during their early start up phase would have been in serious trouble in Germany/EU. The WEEE thing for example is not
    bad per se (I am rather an eco fundamentalist), but the maintainace overhead in doing so is pretty high. Look to switzerland for example there it is way easier: You have no fix fees, you apply for a number and then pay as you sell. All done via a simple web based form.
    In Germany you have steep costs for registration (at least it decreased a lot for small companies with some service companies, I use a Bitcomservice): I have to pay around 700 EUR this year for bureuacracy, while the actual recycling cost is just about 20 EUR.

    For CE it's smilar: I need to provide all my test files (done to some not even public regulations, i.e. you have to pay for reading the test protocol that you have to conduct) publically while as a company outside the EU I just can print fantasy CE sign on my goods and voilá. Illegal, but hard to trap. Or exporting even within the EU: I need to report each month how many goods are send to where and whom (B2B). All the tax things come additionally.
    It's not that I think this is all total BS, but some things could get simplified. In the US it's way easier to start a business, to grow from a very small scale to something bigger. Here you have to think big from the beginning to scale the cost and effort.
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  • »12.07.17 - 13:51
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 848 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    A company like Apple during their early start up phase would have been in serious trouble in Germany/EU.

    Maybe deservedly so if one considers them selling illegal "blue boxes" for making free phone calls a part of their "start up phase" ;-)

    Quote:

    In Germany you have steep costs for registration (at least it decreased a lot for small companies with some service companies, I use a Bitcomservice): I have to pay around 700 EUR this year for bureuacracy, while the actual recycling cost is just about 20 EUR.

    Have you looked into Take-E-Way? Unless this is your first year of operation and the number includes set up fees, the cited amount sounds like a lot.

    Quote:

    CE it's smilar: I need to provide all my test files (done to some not even public regulations, i.e. you have to pay for reading the test protocol that you have to conduct) publically while as a company outside the EU I just can print fantasy CE sign on my goods and voilá. Illegal, but hard to trap. Or exporting even within the EU: I need to report each month how many goods are send to where and whom (B2B). All the tax things come additionally.

    I understand that this is time-consuming but imagine how complicated all of this would be if there was not a supranational organisation that encouraged 25 nations to harmonise their rules and regulations.

    Quote:

    not that I think this is all total BS, but some things could get simplified. In the US it's way easier to start a business, to grow from a very small scale to something bigger. Here you have to think big from the beginning to scale the cost and effort.

    It very much depends on the state. The US is not nearly as homogeneous as people tend to perceive it to be. For instance, California is known to have a lot of 'red tape' although it merits mentioning that at the same time they are also the most productive in terms of economic output.

    I think it is also worth remembering that you are discussing what is considered by some to be the land of lawsuits... Each country has its pitfalls for small entrepreneurs. Personally, I would be hesitant to make blanket statements about where it is easier to found and grow a small business.
  • »12.07.17 - 15:36
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1752 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    ASiegel schrieb:

    Have you looked into Take-E-Way? Unless this is your first year of operation and the number includes set up fees, the cited amount sounds like a lot..


    It's my first year and the overall offering from Bitkom was meeting my requirements better and cheaper. But Take-E-Way as first of the kind of those service providers deserves all my praising.
    And not to get me wrong: I am all for EU, fair taxes and saving the environement, but there is plenty of room for easing up things and improvements. In case of WEEE I suggest to read the mikrocontroller.net forum or the according law blogs who provide all nightmare stories. Many very small companies gave up when the WEEE regulations acme into effect. The actual implementation is serving the big companies way better than the small companies.
    --
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  • »12.07.17 - 17:32
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 848 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    It's my first year and the overall offering from Bitkom was meeting my requirements better and cheaper.

    Before posting, I did research on them but did not find a lot of information on their website or elsewhere.

    Quote:

    Take-E-Way as first of the kind of those service providers deserves all my praising.

    I signed up in 2010 when there weren't too many alternatives around. The way you described the Swiss model is how they have handled things since then. You have a simple custom web form and you just need to fill in numbers in regular intervals. The administrative overhead is negligible once you move past the initial set up phase.

    Quote:

    not to get me wrong: I am all for EU, fair taxes and saving the environement, but there is plenty of room for easing up things and improvements. In case of WEEE I suggest to read the mikrocontroller.net forum or the according law blogs who provide all nightmare stories. Many very small companies gave up when the WEEE regulations acme into effect. The actual implementation is serving the big companies way better than the small companies.

    There is always the option to avoid WEEE altogether by partnering with someone locally or in foreign markets who will take care of it and in return charge a fee on top of whatever you would normally charge.
  • »12.07.17 - 19:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1843 from 2003/10/19
    From: Oxnard, Ca.
    I've been using my Vampire 500 in a 2000 for several months now and have to say I am impressed with it. While it does lack a LOT of compatibiliety, it is fast in what it does. It nearly keeps up with my 75Mhz 060 in my 4000T. It doesnt touch my G5 MorphOS machine, but not much does.

    As far as price, i think the $300 I paid for it was fair. I got 128MB of very fast RAM, an RTG card, fast CPU, good speed IDE and even a network adapter by putting in this SDNet thing into the SD card slot. If I were to add all that up and put it into my 2000 in stand alone card it would be a lot more.
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  • »18.07.17 - 22:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9047 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it does lack a LOT of compatibiliety

    In anything except FPU-based software?
  • »18.07.17 - 23:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2392 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    @thread

    Just in response to thread title:

    Quote:

    so far I have send 464 Vampire 500 V2+ cards who are sold outside of E-bay.


    worth a read to understand some of his difficulties, imo

    #6


    I'll give you three guesses who is doing all that reporting on eBay. His nickname here in MorphZone starts with PPC, and ends with a numeral 1. What a low life jerk (I'd use many other worse adjectives to describe him, but might get banned for doing so).
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »27.07.17 - 21:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2369 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    Quote:

    amigadave schrieb:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    First, as a sidenote, I think it's amusing to see the difference between the European views and some American views. I.e. in most of Europe we have the idea that ultimately it's a societys responsibility to protect the weak, cure the sick, etc. Or like the topic here, consumer protection (for legal guarantee is about consumer protection). While some people across the waters look at these things as "oppressive regulations".
    :-?


    You are forgetting that the few guys coding the Apollo core, and the 2 or 3 others who were responsible for designing and soldering the boards, are NOT a "company selling to consumers", they are more like "hobbyists, selling to other hobbyists". The consumer protection laws being discussed in this thread can be very oppressive for hobbyists, and one or two man groups who are inventing new hardware. I don't think this point of view is any different from an American, than it is from at least some Europeans.

    There's no such thing as hobbyists selling stuff to other hobbyists in the EU. The only exception is selling used stuff at flea market. All other sales must be cone with a registered business and then all these CE, RoHS, WEEE, warranty things apply from sale #1 on. Europe is not particularly founder friendly.


    There is no way in hell that someone selling 4,000 units x €300 EUR = a turnover of €1,200,000 EUR can get away by calling their business "a hobby". That's most certainly a lot more money than AeonKit collected from all their X1000 sales in total. At that kind of money, without a registered business with annual reports, filing VAT reports and paying other taxes, you are probably facing a considerable amount of time in prison. And *of course* the products (targeted for consumers) should be safe, follow the regulations and have all the approvings and certificates, and have full guarantee as required by law. At €1,200,000 there are no moral excuses to slip on this.

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma 28.07.2017 - 07:54 ]
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  • »28.07.17 - 00:06
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