OS...ugh...X
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    While installing Ubuntu Mate to my G4 PowerMac today, I ran across one of my old OSX boot drives.
    320 GB (pretty much the max for PATA drives), ATA133, fairly top of the line for the time it was current, so hey...why not reinstall it for old times sake?

    OMG! Even with dual 1.42 GHz processors does that operating system suck compared to MorphOS (which obviously doesn't even use the full power of the cpus).

    How did anyone put up with something so laggy and deathly slow?

    Which makes me wonder this, why aren't we taking MorphOS a bit more seriously.

    Hobbyist OS? Does it DO what an OS is supposed to do, and does it do it fairly well?
    On a comparison basis, I'll take it over OSX on PPC hardware.

    So, once we move to X64 hardware, instead of focusing on Amiga related 'hobbyist' users, you think we might take things slightly more...(ah, hell, can't think of a better word)...seriously?

    Because I still feel there's a place for a light,fast, micro kernel based operating system that has the responsive feel our current OS has (but on even better, faster hardware).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.06.17 - 01:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10932 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > 320 GB (pretty much the max for PATA drives)

    There are PATA HDDs with 400 GB (Samsung), 500 GB (HGST, WD) or 750 GB (Seagate) still for sale.
  • »25.06.17 - 11:06
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1981 from 2003/2/24
    320GB is/was the biggest ever made in 2.5".

    So he should have written "320 GB (pretty much the max for PATA drives that fits a Powerbook).

    @Jim
    "laggy and deathly slow", remember that this was current at a time when most people were still running WinXP, 10.5 must have felt like sweet heaven in comparison.
    There is also that rumor that Apple didn't optimize the PPC part of Leopard in order to make users switch to intel faster, something that most likely is also the reason why the Leopard-servicepack (aka SnowLeopard) never made it to PPC.

    Both Win and OSX got far less laggy today thanks to SSDs and HW several times faster than those 1.42GHz G4s, so you'd have a hard time convincing normal people that getting rid of an unnoticeable lag (in everyday light use) would be a good reason to go for a non-lagging platform that will struggle at lot of basic things.
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  • »25.06.17 - 12:45
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10932 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > he should have written "320 GB (pretty much the max for PATA drives that fits
    > a Powerbook).

    That statement would be true, but with questionable relevance for his PowerMac :-)
  • »25.06.17 - 13:15
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Korni
    Posts: 460 from 2006/2/23
    From: the Planet of ...
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    "laggy and deathly slow", remember that this was current at a time when most people were still running WinXP, 10.5 must have felt like sweet heaven in comparison.


    10.5 on G5 2GHz does not feel faster at all compared to WinXP on Sempron 1.9GHz here. Of course MorphOS wipes them all ;).
    http://korni.ppa.pl/modkowypaczek/ | My Rifle, My Bunny, and Me
  • »25.06.17 - 13:31
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Tom01
    Posts: 165 from 2009/9/20
    Strange.
    On my i7-4790K macOS 10.12 is much faster than Windows-8 or 10.
  • »25.06.17 - 21:20
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2703 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Tom01 wrote:
    Strange.
    On my i7-4790K macOS 10.12 is much faster than Windows-8 or 10.


    I'm not impressed by the speed of any version of Windows, and keep looking for ways to remove things, in hopes that I can speed it up a little, to make using Windows10 a little more bearable.

    Seriously thinking of going back to using MacOSX 10.6, or 10.7, on a 2.66GHz Core2Duo MacMini, for email and web browsing, to see how it compares to those tasks on my 2.6GHz i7 8 core laptop, running Windows10. I also wonder which system is more secure against viruses, and other online threats found while web browsing, or reading emails. I currently use Avast anti-virus software on my Windows10 systems, to help keep them safe, but often wonder how effective any of the most popular virus protection software suites really are.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »26.06.17 - 01:14
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > he should have written "320 GB (pretty much the max for PATA drives that fits
    > a Powerbook).

    That statement would be true, but with questionable relevance for his PowerMac :-)


    Actually, your point is taken, although I have swtched to 2.5 drives in a lot of hardware including desktops.
    But this is a 3.5" drive.

    As to Win10 and MacOS...

    I'm using Windows 10 of a couple of systems.
    There ARE some odd lags on systems with lower core counts.
    My dual core i7 (which supports four threads) doesn't seem to work as well as an older Phenom II X4, but that is probably due to the difference in clock speed (the Phenom being about 1GHZ faster AND has the advantage of a discreet graphics card).
    And I haven't upgraded from my FX-8370 to a Ryzen based system yet, but that runs very well.
    So, I think its really a matter of how much raw power a system provides.

    And, in a straight comparison, I still don't see much difference between MacOS and Windows in terms of performance, on similar hardware.


    [ Edited by Jim 26.06.2017 - 09:07 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.06.17 - 13:58
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1164 from 2003/6/17
    @Jim:

    I think its the lack of software. I'm not talking Amiga OS legacy. While its "OK" to reminisce and use old software, its just dated, its limiting. Yes we have a large library of software at our disposal but nothing written to take advantage of MorphOS and the system its running on. Its like that previous thread about an office suite.

    I use MorphOS sparingly. I have other hobbies that are going on which take precedence over retro computing. I will say this though, MorphOS makes it easier for me to do retro computing if I want to play around with legacy Amiga software. Kinda disappointed because while I can code, theres alot going on to where it prohibits me from setting time aside to read stuff and play with for example, FPC or Hollywood.

    I dont know how the MorphOS Dev Team does it...dunno how they stay motivated to code. One day they will need to pass the torch to someone else and I hope that when that day comes someone will be there for the handoff...
  • »26.06.17 - 18:54
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    @Jim:

    I think its the lack of software. I'm not talking Amiga OS legacy. While its "OK" to reminisce and use old software, its just dated, its limiting. Yes we have a large library of software at our disposal but nothing written to take advantage of MorphOS and the system its running on. Its like that previous thread about an office suite.

    I use MorphOS sparingly. I have other hobbies that are going on which take precedence over retro computing. I will say this though, MorphOS makes it easier for me to do retro computing if I want to play around with legacy Amiga software. Kinda disappointed because while I can code, theres alot going on to where it prohibits me from setting time aside to read stuff and play with for example, FPC or Hollywood.

    I dont know how the MorphOS Dev Team does it...dunno how they stay motivated to code. One day they will need to pass the torch to someone else and I hope that when that day comes someone will be there for the handoff...



    THAT is a major stumbling block. I've discussed with others including Wiktor Glowacki (Pampers) and I rank it in importance above porting to new hardware or advancing the OS.
    And I don't have a lot of time to devote to learning something like Hollywood myself, plus I'm not that familiar with Amiga-like OS' or MUI.
    My programming skills are more in line with 68K assembly code and C.
    Not to mention that when I'm not working, or taking classes for my MBA, I've got a lot of other things eating up my time.

    But...I'd like to do more to encourage work on projects that run in MorphOS.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.06.17 - 19:28
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10932 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > we have [...] nothing written to take advantage of MorphOS and the system its running on.

    Really? Nothing? Hard to believe.
  • »27.06.17 - 13:52
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > we have [...] nothing written to take advantage of MorphOS and the system its running on.

    Really? Nothing? Hard to believe.


    Slight exaggeration. I don't use a lot of 68K programs, and I still manage to have a few things I can do under MorphOS.
    I could always use more...
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.06.17 - 20:42
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1953 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:

    And I don't have a lot of time to devote to learning something like Hollywood myself, plus I'm not that familiar with Amiga-like OS' or MUI.



    As far as it concerns Hollywood and MUI - you don't need much pre-knowledge. For MUIRoyale or RapaGUI it's just writing XML layouts. Rather easy. A program like .Exutil, is 70 lines of xml for the gui and a few hundred lines for the actual code (not much optimzed but rather written down to just work) . Nevertheless it's of course quite a bit of work to actually make even such a small programm (which in this case was primarily a training project o learn RapaGUI).

    My major issue is that I don't have many good ideas for rather small sized projects to work on (still there are two projects waiting for completition). Ultimate webbrowser, rocking office suite, funky game, all fine, but quite some work for a non professional single programmer. In fact absolutely unrealistic projects for contributors like myself (focused on Hollywood and not too much time at disposal). But if you Morphers out there have ideas for rather small projects, bring them on. I am happy if I get good ideas and eventually something may come to fruitition

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 28.06.2017 - 00:54 ]
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  • »27.06.17 - 23:49
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2703 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    @Jim:

    I think its the lack of software. I'm not talking Amiga OS legacy. While its "OK" to reminisce and use old software, its just dated, its limiting. Yes we have a large library of software at our disposal but nothing written to take advantage of MorphOS and the system its running on. Its like that previous thread about an office suite.

    I use MorphOS sparingly. I have other hobbies that are going on which take precedence over retro computing. I will say this though, MorphOS makes it easier for me to do retro computing if I want to play around with legacy Amiga software. Kinda disappointed because while I can code, theres alot going on to where it prohibits me from setting time aside to read stuff and play with for example, FPC or Hollywood.

    I dont know how the MorphOS Dev Team does it...dunno how they stay motivated to code. One day they will need to pass the torch to someone else and I hope that when that day comes someone will be there for the handoff...



    THAT is a major stumbling block. I've discussed with others including Wiktor Glowacki (Pampers) and I rank it in importance above porting to new hardware or advancing the OS.
    And I don't have a lot of time to devote to learning something like Hollywood myself, plus I'm not that familiar with Amiga-like OS' or MUI.
    My programming skills are more in line with 68K assembly code and C.
    Not to mention that when I'm not working, or taking classes for my MBA, I've got a lot of other things eating up my time.

    But...I'd like to do more to encourage work on projects that run in MorphOS.



    I've been asking this question, or similar questions for years. How is any of the great knowledge and expertise from dozens or hundreds of existing and former Amiga and MorphOS programmers and hardware hackers being transferred to new users. This lack of documenting and saving existing knowledge and expertise, and lack of teaching newer and younger users that knowledge, is probably the most serious threat to the longevity of our platform. It is certain that we are losing talented people with knowledge and expertise much faster than we are gaining new users that have the desire and talent to learn the skills needed to plug the hole that is the "knowledge and expertise drain", from our community.

    Unfortunately, the members of our community that do 95% or more of the coding and inventing work, are also the busiest and have the least time and desire to spend trying to teach new users, or writing detailed documentation, so their knowledge can be passed on to later users, programmers, and hardware designers.


    [ Edited by amigadave 27.06.2017 - 16:34 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »28.06.17 - 00:30
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1070 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    @Jim:

    I think its the lack of software. I'm not talking Amiga OS legacy. While its "OK" to reminisce and use old software, its just dated, its limiting. Yes we have a large library of software at our disposal but nothing written to take advantage of MorphOS and the system its running on. Its like that previous thread about an office suite.

    I use MorphOS sparingly. I have other hobbies that are going on which take precedence over retro computing. I will say this though, MorphOS makes it easier for me to do retro computing if I want to play around with legacy Amiga software. Kinda disappointed because while I can code, theres alot going on to where it prohibits me from setting time aside to read stuff and play with for example, FPC or Hollywood.

    I dont know how the MorphOS Dev Team does it...dunno how they stay motivated to code. One day they will need to pass the torch to someone else and I hope that when that day comes someone will be there for the handoff...



    THAT is a major stumbling block. I've discussed with others including Wiktor Glowacki (Pampers) and I rank it in importance above porting to new hardware or advancing the OS.
    And I don't have a lot of time to devote to learning something like Hollywood myself, plus I'm not that familiar with Amiga-like OS' or MUI.
    My programming skills are more in line with 68K assembly code and C.
    Not to mention that when I'm not working, or taking classes for my MBA, I've got a lot of other things eating up my time.

    But...I'd like to do more to encourage work on projects that run in MorphOS.



    I've been asking this question, or similar questions for years. How is any of the great knowledge and expertise from dozens or hundreds of existing and former Amiga and MorphOS programmers and hardware hackers being transferred to new users. This lack of documenting and saving existing knowledge and expertise, and lack of teaching newer and younger users that knowledge, is probably the most serious threat to the longevity of our platform. It is certain that we are losing talented people with knowledge and expertise much faster than we are gaining new users that have the desire and talent to learn the skills needed to plug the hole that is the "knowledge and expertise drain", from our community.

    Unfortunately, the members of our community that do 95% or more of the coding and inventing work, are also the busiest and have the least time and desire to spend trying to teach new users, or writing detailed documentation, so their knowledge can be passed on to later users, programmers, and hardware designers.



    Anyone who wants to learn can do it the way everyone else did, read the RKRM's and get stuck in.

    There's nothing really attractive to young people in the OS or it's API's compared to modern technology and the low level bit-banging fun that the original Amiga hardware offers isn't there on the NG machines.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »28.06.17 - 01:14
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    "bit banging fun', huh?

    I actually was never an advocate of directly addressing hardware as my own 68K machines ran under Microware OS-9.
    I like using drivers to connect to hardware.

    In a way, I'm more comfortable with MorphOS than Amiga because of that.
    A good micro kernel based OS with API system calls to handle hardware interaction.

    Hard coding to specific locations really screws with portability, adaptability to new hardware, expansion, and the general evolution of the hardware platform.

    Amigas, if they still existed, would be nothing like their legacy counterparts, and the OS would have continued to evolve fully eliminating that 'fun'.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »29.06.17 - 20:54
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1892 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    The OSX team back then was actually quite small compared to what they have now, or at least had up to recently for the current builds. I've often wondered what MorphOS/AmigaOS 4.X would be like if both teams came together and made a new unified OS taking the benefits of each and combining into an ultimate NG OS. Im sure it would never happen in a million years, but I am sure it would put Windows and OSX up to a challenge at least if they did it full time like they do.
    AmigaOne X5000 with MorphOS Installed
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  • »06.05.20 - 13:51
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1217 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Acill wrote:
    I've often wondered what MorphOS/AmigaOS 4.X would be like if both teams came together and made a new unified OS taking the benefits of each and combining into an ultimate NG OS.

    Remember the Homer Simpsons Car? Some features or benefits simply cancel each other if you tried to combine them.
  • »06.05.20 - 14:58
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  • MorphOS Developer
    zukow
    Posts: 550 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    So what can we get from OS4, or what is better (except PPP dialing and mediator support)?

    [ Edited by zukow 06.05.2020 - 19:52 ]
  • »06.05.20 - 18:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10932 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > So what can we get from OS4, or what is better […]?

    That thread has some ideas ;-)
  • »06.05.20 - 19:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1892 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    Quote:

    zukow wrote:
    So what can we get from OS4, or what is better (except PPP dialing and mediator support)?


    For the most part, not a lot. The things that come to mind are the things that A-eon has done with the enhancer packs and newer video card support. The only thing keeping me from using my X5000 frombeing a primary MorphOS machine is the lack of 3D and support for the newer Radeon card in it. I guess i mostly meant the number of devs working together would be a lot more helpfull over having two good systems being made to compete.

    What prevents A-eon from compiling the enhancer packs for MorpgOS or allowing the video drivrs from being used with MorphOS anyway? Just them not liking it or the MorphOS devs not liking them?
    AmigaOne X5000 with MorphOS Installed
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  • »06.05.20 - 23:22
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10932 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > What prevents A-eon from compiling the enhancer packs for MorpgOS
    > or allowing the video drivrs from being used with MorphOS anyway?

    I guess that the Enhancer components for the most part couldn't be made to run on MorphOS by mere recompilation.
  • »06.05.20 - 23:56
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    jPV
    Posts: 1640 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    Acill wrote:
    What prevents A-eon from compiling the enhancer packs for MorpgOS or allowing the video drivrs from being used with MorphOS anyway? Just them not liking it or the MorphOS devs not liking them?


    I would say the primary reason for getting nothing from them for MorphOS is the lack of man power on both organizing and coding departments.

    They (especially Trevor) have always told that they want to support all Amiga related platforms, but it all seems to fall behind Matthew in practise, and he just seems to have too much to do. He has his own store to handle and that must take most of his time, and the little time he's left from that, there's huge amount of A-EON related projects under his supervising. And he just seems to scrape together only some of the most important OS4 related projects.

    I would also guess that their current coders aren't too motivated to code on MorphOS, and are hands full with their OS4 projects anyway. This could probably be fixed if some talented MorphOS coders would offer their help and would engage with the projects, but even then it could get stuck under the management.

    There have been some signs that they could be willing to do something for MorphOS side, like there was supposed to be a MorphOS version of PPaint, but it never got finished/published, and I don't think it's going to happen ever at this rate. I've also tried to get some of my programs to be released at AMIStore for OS4(!), but even that seems to be an impossible task (been trying for three years now). So everything just throttles there unless it's one of their flagship products.

    Maybe the best approach for getting support would be trying to cooperate with the respective developer directly? For example, Hans, who has developed some OS4 video drivers, seems to be a reasonable guy and maybe Bigfoot or some other MorphOS developer could exchange some information and findings directly with him?
  • »07.05.20 - 06:31
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