Crowdfunding for TALOS Workstation
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 168 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Anyone is still tempted? Preordering stops on Friday, 15. September. ;-)

    Meanwhile details of the (initial) CPU have become available. It's a quad core POWER9 feat. SMT4 (4 threads per core, so all in all 16 threads) at 90W TDP. The heatsink is designed to cope with the more powerful CPUs available later too. The board has fan control. <-- Which were important details for me.

    More info: klick

    [ Editiert durch ernsteiswuerfel 10.09.2017 - 00:06 ]
    PMac G5 11,2. PMac G5 7,3. PBook G4 5,8. PBook G4 5,6. [MorphOS 3.9 / Gentoo Linux / Ubuntu MATE 16.10] 2 x A1200. ACA-1233/55, ACA1232/40, Indivision AGA Mk2, 4 GiB CF. [Amiga OS 3.9]
  • »09.09.17 - 23:04
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2456 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Totally confusing CrowdSupply post by Raptor Engineering.

    Price now $3700 with cpu and some accessories?
    Talos or TalosII? Power8? Power9?
    Now available? Shipping in November if ordered now?

    I can't decipher this crap, and it does nothing for my confidence.

    https://www.crowdsupply.com/raptor-computing-systems/talos-secure-workstation/updates/talos-tm-is-back-talos-tm-ii-now-available


    With only 16gb memory and without the external 8 port LSI the price is $3510.00. A bit more than an X5000 cost I think, but so much more powerful, and probably less problems (I would hope).

    I wonder how many of the MorphOS Dev. Team members are looking at that Power9 board and wishing that they could port MorphOS to it, but do so with a break from our traditional Amiga compatible version of MorphOS, so they could run on all 16 cores (more if/when a 2nd CPU is installed). Certainly, a port to this ultimate PPC desktop system would be faster and easier than porting to the x64 architecture, and possibly it could be a good step toward an eventual transition to x64, while providing a huge performance increase, and allowing the Dev. Team to concentrate on less things at one time, than trying to practically start over from scratch, with the current proposed port to x64 architecture.

    I'm just saying that maybe it would be easier to stick with PPC and write a version of MorphOS that is NOT compatible with Amiga binaries, that also provides full 64bit memory space (heck, even just providing full 32bit, instead of the 31bit we have now would be a huge improvement), providing memory protection, and SMP, all on PPC hardware that is already supported (like the G5 PowerMacs, which are 64bit systems), or this Power9 board, would be less work than doing all of the above, plus the added task of switching endianess, with the move to x64 architecture. The added benefit would be that we might be able to continue to use some of the native MorphOS PPC software (maybe not, since all existing MorphOS native software is running on an API that is Amiga compatible?).

    Seems I might have written something like this before, and I may be repeating myself. Someone may have already explained to me why my idea is not possible, and that the switch to x64 is NOT more difficult, once the break away from the Amiga compatible API is made, and that sticking with the dead PPC hardware platform offers zero benefits. I don't know, because I can't remember sh!t!

    [ Edited by amigadave 09.09.2017 - 22:51 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »10.09.17 - 06:47
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1674 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:


    I wonder how many of the MorphOS Dev. Team members are looking at that Power9 board and wishing that they could port MorphOS to it, but do so with a break from our traditional Amiga compatible version of MorphOS, so they could run on all 16 cores (more if/when a 2nd CPU is installed). Certainly, a port to this ultimate PPC desktop system would be faster and easier than porting to the x64 architecture, and possibly it could be a good step toward an eventual transition to x64, while providing a huge performance increase, and allowing the Dev. Team to concentrate on less things at one time, than trying to practically start over from scratch, with the current proposed port to x64 architecture.



    If that was/is the plan (64Bit/SMP non compatible PPC-MorphOS as a step towards x64) it would make much more sense to just use the G5 quad.

    No real big difference (in terms of OS development) wether you have 4 or 16 cores, and with the quad you'd have a starting point with 32Bit MorphOS either already working or only needing some minor tweaks.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »10.09.17 - 09:19
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 885 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    I wonder how many of the MorphOS Dev. Team members are looking at that Power9 board and wishing that they could port MorphOS to it, but do so with a break from our traditional Amiga compatible version of MorphOS, so they could run on all 16 cores (more if/when a 2nd CPU is installed).

    I wouldn't be too surprised if that number was actually zero.

    Talos II sounds like a fun toy to play around with but that is about it.

    Quote:

    Seems I might have written something like this before, and I may be repeating myself. Someone may have already explained to me why my idea is not possible, and that the switch to x64 is NOT more difficult, once the break away from the Amiga compatible API is made, and that sticking with the dead PPC hardware platform offers zero benefits. I don't know, because I can't remember sh!t!

    What you are describing is a reasonable approach for developing and testing prototypes of a next generation MorphOS.

    However, there is really little point in taking the time to polish everything and produce a version that is ready to be shared with end users and third party developers if you can just push ahead and go for an architecture that has far more long-term appeal in the consumer / enthusiast space than PowerPC / POWER does. If you produce a "stop gap" release for selected PowerPC systems, then you risk facing a second compatibility break as soon as you switch processors again or being required to deal with fat binaries or similar options to ensure people can run the same software on multiple processor architectures. These things can get complicated very quickly.

    Ideally, MorphOS can be run on a variety of hardware choices that cover a reasonably wide spectrum of price points. As reasonable as the Talos II pricing appears to be compared to other server-class hardware options, there are no publically known plans for entry-level hardware options using the same core processor architecture. So, while Talos II looks interesting enough, it represents just a tiny piece out of a much larger set of missing puzzle pieces.
  • »10.09.17 - 09:23
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> It's a quad core POWER9 feat. SMT4 (4 threads per core, so all in all 16 threads)

    > [...] so they could run on all 16 cores

    As said, it's just 4 cores, but 16 hardware threads.

    > we might be able to continue to use some of the native MorphOS PPC software
    > (maybe not, since all existing MorphOS native software is running on an API that
    > is Amiga compatible?).

    I guess some adaptations in the source code to accommodate to new/altered API functions would have to be made.
  • »10.09.17 - 13:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2456 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:


    I wonder how many of the MorphOS Dev. Team members are looking at that Power9 board and wishing that they could port MorphOS to it, but do so with a break from our traditional Amiga compatible version of MorphOS, so they could run on all 16 cores (more if/when a 2nd CPU is installed). Certainly, a port to this ultimate PPC desktop system would be faster and easier than porting to the x64 architecture, and possibly it could be a good step toward an eventual transition to x64, while providing a huge performance increase, and allowing the Dev. Team to concentrate on less things at one time, than trying to practically start over from scratch, with the current proposed port to x64 architecture.



    If that was/is the plan (64Bit/SMP non compatible PPC-MorphOS as a step towards x64) it would make much more sense to just use the G5 quad.

    No real big difference (in terms of OS development) wether you have 4 or 16 cores, and with the quad you'd have a starting point with 32Bit MorphOS either already working or only needing some minor tweaks.


    Yes, I totally agree from a user standpoint, but thought that maybe one or two of the MorphOS Dev. Team members might be still very fond of the PPC architecture, and that they might like to have an "Ultimate" PPC desktop system, such as the Talos II, to run the PPC version of MorphOS, even after they make the switch to supporting x64 architecture.

    Porting to the Talos II would never be a rational thing to do as far as choosing a system for the users to buy. It would only be a selfish choice for whom ever wants such extreme power and speed, plus the PPC architecture, and I have no knowledge that any of the team members care which architecture they are coding for any more. Maybe none of them care about PPC any longer, and they are all looking forward to leaving it behind (other than maybe some support patches), when the switch to x64 is completed.

    My only point was that it might be easier to complete a version of MorphOS on PPC which has SMP and memory protection, but breaks all backward compatibility with the Amiga API, instead of creating a new MorphOS with SMP and memory protection, while at the same time moving to a different architecture.

    If this approach actually creates extra work and is of no benefit toward eventually creating a SMP and memory protected version of MorphOS for x64, then I would not propose for such extra work to be done, only to provide a PPC version of MorphOS with SMP and memory protection for current users on their existing PPC hardware.

    I only mention these things as a suggestion, because we have very limited man power, and all of the team members are used to working on the PPC hardware so far, with all current and previous versions of MorphOS, so maybe it would be easier for them to create a new OS with SMP and memory protection on the platform architecture they are familiar with (when working on MorphOS anyway), instead of trying to create a new OS with SMP and memory protection, while also trying to port as many features and look of our existing MorphOS, to the x64 architecture.

    Edit: What I am actually hoping for, is for the new x64 version of MorphOS, to be so lightweight and fast, that when web browsers and office suites are ported from Linux, or Windows, or MacOSX, to MorphOS, the same program will run faster and better, because there will be much less bloatware slowing down the computer. I am hoping for something similar to when us Amiga users could emulate a Mac on our 68030, or 68040 accelerated Amigas, faster than a real Mac computer could run, using the exact same CPU.

    [ Edited by amigadave 11.09.2017 - 15:28 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »11.09.17 - 23:22
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it might be easier to complete a version of MorphOS on PPC which has SMP and
    > memory protection, but breaks all backward compatibility with the Amiga API

    Yes, that might be done as an interim step, but as ASiegel said, such version would maybe not be released as to avoid an additional compatibility break, i.e. in addition to the one caused by the ISA switch.
  • »11.09.17 - 23:50
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4254 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Well, one thing that Power 9 would give us that X64 won't do as well is run our current software.
    Even if both platforms were running QEMU, a Power 9 platform would run SAM460 or X5000 emulation better the X64 systems
    Its simply a matter of lower translation overhead.
    Power 9's instruction set is related to PPC, and X64 is completely different.

    Raptor's board IS a bit overpriced, but if a larger than ATX, 2 socket board can be built for only a few hundred more than an X5000, couldn't a 1 socket ATX board be built for less?

    And, yes, the G5 could be used as a starting point for 32 or 64 bit MorphOS.

    So while I understand the X64 argument, moving forward with Power would be more evolutionary.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »12.09.17 - 01:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9295 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Power 9 would [...] run our current software.

    ...with an OS API as it is now, not with a MorphOS as envisioned by amigadave :-)

    > Power 9 platform would run SAM460 or X5000 emulation better the X64 systems [...]
    > Power 9's instruction set is related to PPC

    Even better: POWER9, PPC440 and e5500 all implement Power ISA :-)

    > if a larger than ATX, 2 socket board can be built for only a few hundred
    > more than an X5000, couldn't a 1 socket ATX board be built for less?

    Less than the dual-socket EATX board? Yes. Less than Cyrus/X5000? I don't think so.
  • »12.09.17 - 15:22
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4254 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Power 9 would [...] run our current software.

    ...with an OS API as it is now, not with a MorphOS as envisioned by amigadave :-)

    > Power 9 platform would run SAM460 or X5000 emulation better the X64 systems [...]
    > Power 9's instruction set is related to PPC

    Even better: POWER9, PPC440 and e5500 all implement Power ISA :-)

    > if a larger than ATX, 2 socket board can be built for only a few hundred
    > more than an X5000, couldn't a 1 socket ATX board be built for less?

    Less than the dual-socket EATX board? Yes. Less than Cyrus/X5000? I don't think so.


    No, I don't think it would be less than the X5000 either, but they could be remarkably close in price (considering that they are not that far apart now).

    And I'm more interested in what could be done as an extension of what we currently have, into an smp/32 (or 64) bit enabled future.
    This could start right now with the G5 and migrate into Power 9 relatively painlessly.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »12.09.17 - 23:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2456 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    No, I don't think it would be less than the X5000 either, but they could be remarkably close in price (considering that they are not that far apart now).

    And I'm more interested in what could be done as an extension of what we currently have, into an smp/32 (or 64) bit enabled future.
    This could start right now with the G5 and migrate into Power 9 relatively painlessly.


    A small production run of custom boards with a single Power9 CPU socket, might not be less expensive than the currently proposed Talos II board, because someone would still have to pay for the R&D to re-design the Talos II board to remove the extra CPU socket and wiring traces, and probably some firmware logic. That extra cost for a very small production run would probably increase the cost of a single CPU board, and such extra expense might actually make this imaginary single Power9 CPU board more expensive than the currently proposed Talos II boards. I don't know if the proposed price of the Talos II boards is enough to recoup all of their design costs, as who ever paid for such design costs, might be writing that cost off as a non-recoverable design expense, similar to what Trevor and A-Eon did with the X1000.

    @Andreas Wolf,
    My imagined evolution of a version of MorphOS with SMP and memory protection on PPC (breaking compatibility with Amiga 68k API) would still be able to run some, or most of our current software via a sandbox/emulation on only one core, which I would imagine might be easier, or better to do on a Power9 CPU board, than it would be on the x64 architecture, but since I have no idea of what amount of work it takes to do any of these things, I am just imagining in the dark.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »13.09.17 - 17:16
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 168 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Like I got from #talos-workstation on IRC ordering the systems/boards is still possible. Orders placed now will be processed during Q1/2018. Orders in the phase closed on 15.09. will be processed Q4/2017.

    [ Editiert durch ernsteiswuerfel 24.09.2017 - 20:26 ]
    PMac G5 11,2. PMac G5 7,3. PBook G4 5,8. PBook G4 5,6. [MorphOS 3.9 / Gentoo Linux / Ubuntu MATE 16.10] 2 x A1200. ACA-1233/55, ACA1232/40, Indivision AGA Mk2, 4 GiB CF. [Amiga OS 3.9]
  • »24.09.17 - 19:26
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4254 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    ernsteiswuerfel wrote:
    Like I got from #talos-workstation on IRC ordering the systems/boards is still possible. Orders placed now will be processed during Q1/2018. Orders in the phase closed on 15.09. will be processed Q4/2017.

    [ Editiert durch ernsteiswuerfel 24.09.2017 - 20:26 ]


    Cool, if I suddenly find out that an un kown rich relative has left me their fortune, I already have an an EATX case ;-)
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.09.17 - 13:10
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