Vaporware or Fraudware?
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 236 from 2003/7/26
    From: Chicago, IL
    Why is this vaporware still being sold?

    http://www.pagestream.org/?action=Store

    I paid for this over 12 years ago for MorphOS and still have nothing. Request for clarification or refunds go unanswered. How many others have had this problem. I think at this point in time since it's still being sold but not available in a workable form it may be fraud depending on what country you live in. What does everyone else think? Time to callout developers taking money for nothing. I'm tired of the rumors saying it's almost done. That's been going on for over a decade. How long does it take to learn MUI?

    [ Edited by discreetfx 28.03.2016 - 17:38 ]
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  • »29.03.16 - 00:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 800 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK/GB
    I too have a great interest in seeing a working MorphOS version of PageStream, and though I heard of a working version at the 30 year event at Neuss I personally have had no reply from Deron Kazmaier as to its current point in being completed/released. I asked this question via the PageStream site only about a week ago - no reply back, thus far, and I'm, sadly, not optimistic I will get a reply.

    I spoke to Frank Mariak, a while ago, regarding this very issue of the MorphOS version, which brought about Frank getting in contact with Deron, I believe, and the subsequent working version that was shown at Neuss. So it seems it is possible, and may be a reality.

    As you say it is shown as available for sale on the PageStream website/shop, but I doubt if I'd see anything for any money paid to the shop for this specific product, and I'm not prepared to take such a chance without more definitive confirmation of its availability, and what testing as to its functional reliability has been established.

    PageStream 4 was a great product, and PageStream 5 had great potential, but trying to break into the Windows market, at the same time as the Mac and Linux markets, while keeping an Amiga application alive with virtually a useless or unuseable product, as that seemed to be the one with the least coding time spent on it, has not shown Deron's previous capabilities in a good light, and I feel Deron was 'biting off more than he could chew', in those circumstances.

    I would like to remain optimistic, but when you ask questions to the email area of the PageStream site that never get answered, and the Yahoo groups moderators prevent such questions from being asked on the forum, you have to doubt that Deron is taking his role seriously, or prepared to do what is right by everyone who would support him, to see that he was actually going to 'get his finger out'.

    I'm not saying that he, and his family don't have other commitments or interests elsewhere than PageStream, but if that's the case why doesn't he hand over the code for someone else to move it forward. He's made quite a bit of money out of it in the past, but if his intentions are to complete fixing it, as it is a flawed product in whichever OS you choose to try it out on, then he should get on with doing just that.

    I fully understand your frustration, and stance, and would appreciate some response from Frank Mariak, as to where the work he did to get the PageStream version actually functioning, as reported at Neuss, and if he has any glimmer of hope to offer us all, if Deron gave him any response(s) as to his realistic intentions with PageStream, and in particular the MorphOS version.
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  • »29.03.16 - 04:38
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1889 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    discreetfx wrote:
    Why is this vaporware still being sold?




    The irony runs deep with this one......
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
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  • »29.03.16 - 11:03
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    pampers
    Posts: 1055 from 2009/2/26
    From: Tczew, Poland
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    The irony runs deep with this one......


    Why, don't you enjoy the latest Alladin 4D? ;)
    MorphOS 3.x
  • »29.03.16 - 11:22
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    connor
    Posts: 502 from 2007/7/29
    Aladdin 4D virtually flies ...
  • »29.03.16 - 14:05
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    pampers wrote:
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    The irony runs deep with this one......


    Why, don't you enjoy the latest Alladin 4D? ;)




    Hmm, yeah, Deron and Aladdin 4D.
    I had a chance to examine that code a couple of years ago.
    Hopefully, if another version is released it won't be based on that hot mess.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »29.03.16 - 14:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10538 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Aladdin 4D virtually flies

    Through version 5.0 it does indeed :-)
  • »29.03.16 - 15:55
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    BTW - Why should Frank comment on a project Deron has not completed?

    Also, didn't Deron post that he was looking for help with MUI over five years ago?

    Further, I did not mean to appear to be attacking Aladdin4D.
    Yes, all versions released work well.
    It is a real tribute to the Amiga that this type of software originated on that platform.

    [ Edited by Jim 29.03.2016 - 17:23 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »29.03.16 - 23:07
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    Kronos
    Posts: 1889 from 2003/2/24
    @Jim

    Frank did demo an ( enhanced) version at Neuss.

    Not sure what the full story is on that one.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »29.03.16 - 23:31
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    @Jim

    Frank did demo an ( enhanced) version at Neuss.

    Not sure what the full story is on that one.


    Thanks.
    I was not aware of that.
    Makes you wonder who did the MUI coding.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.03.16 - 01:14
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 800 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK/GB
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    BTW - Why should Frank comment on a project Deron has not completed?

    Frank, I believe, helped Deron with the intricacies of MUI programming, that Deron couldn't come to terms with, which is what I discussed with Frank briefly, and as a result seems to have managed to produce the only working PageStream version, for MorphOS, I have ever heard of, so it would be nice to know from Frank how complete the version he worked on was, and if there were still any unresolved bugs.

    I am only asking Frank, because I cannot get any reply from Deron, and so someone who is on the Development team within MOS is more likely to state the facts, or tell us what he knows, if he is not subject to a NDA, than never getting a reply from Deron.
    Quote:

    Also, didn't Deron post that he was looking for help with MUI over five years ago?

    See above, which is why Frank might know more than anyone else, other than the elusive Deron Kazmaier !

    Quote:

    It is a real tribute to the Amiga that this type of software originated on that platform.

    It didn't, it originated on the Atari ST. See PageStream Overview - History

    [ Edited by NewSense 30.03.2016 - 00:42 ]
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  • »30.03.16 - 01:40
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2601 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    @Jim

    Frank did demo an ( enhanced) version at Neuss.

    Not sure what the full story is on that one.


    Thanks.
    I was not aware of that.
    Makes you wonder who did the MUI coding.



    From what I was able to figure out from different comments made by a few different people, the work done to allow the latest version of Pagestream to run on MorphOS was the result of Frank writing some patch code to fix one or more problems that Deron could not (or would not) finish. As Pagestream is not Franks project, he could not release his patch code without permission of the owner of Pagestream. I also don't think that Frank wanted to get sucked into providing any kind of support for Pagestream, which is very understandable.

    I did get a reply from Deron and some information on how I could get my Pagestream for MorphOS running prior to the 2015 AmiWest Show, but I was too busy with other things to try to get it installed and working. I wanted to demo it at the show, but failed to do so. Maybe I can get it installed and working in time for the 2016 AmiWest Show?

    Deron obviously avoids hostile confrontations with any users, but might respond to users who do not make harsh comments on the Pagestream forum, I don't know. Has anyone here tested any of the Pagestream versions for Windows or MacOSX? It would be great to have a fully working version for MorphOS in the near future.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »30.03.16 - 01:49
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 236 from 2003/7/26
    From: Chicago, IL
    @Jim

    Thanks for that Jim, I didn't think you were attacking Aladdin 4D though. DiscreetFX sold all rights for the MorphOS, AmigaOS and AROS versions in 2014 to A-Eon so we no longer have a horse in that race. We do retain rights to release an updated version for any other platform. But back on topic I would still like Pagestream for MorphOS, something I paid for over 12 years ago. But like Aladdin 4D Deron did a terrible job updating it. This is very disappointing since Deron once was a very talented coder. Not sure why he still sells it. Due to Deron's complete lack of progress I've long ago switched to Adobe CC but that's not on MorphOS so I would still like to get what I paid for.

    The right thing to do would be to give refunds to loyal customers that waited a long time for something that's never going to come but Deron's too selfish to do something like that. He would rather sit on those millions of dollars in Pagestream upgrades from honest hard working Amiga fans. I hope his palace is warm and cozy at night.



    [ Edited by discreetfx 29.03.2016 - 22:16 ]
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  • »30.03.16 - 01:53
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 800 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK/GB
    Quote:

    Jim
    From what I was able to figure out ....

    So your comments, however well meant and well informed . . are guesses it seems, sadly
    Quote:

    I did get a reply from Deron and some information on how I could get my Pagestream for MorphOS running prior to the 2015 AmiWest Show

    Was that PageStream 4 or PageStream 5?
    Quote:

    Deron obviously avoids hostile confrontations with any users, but might respond to users who do not make harsh comments on the Pagestream forum, I don't know.

    That's all very nice for him, but he needs to know, and should be broad-shouldered enough to take honest comments on the state he has left the PageStream product in, for every OS he has coded it for it seems.

    Quote:

    Has anyone here tested any of the Pagestream versions for Windows or MacOSX?

    I have the Windows version - very flaky, the Amiga 68k version - doesn't work, OS4 version - same/useless. The Mac OSX version requires an Intel Core Mac, so I'm not going there, and there is no PPC version for Mac OSX. I am not aware of anything working better, or worse than not working at all, for the Linux version compared to the other versions in existence. Oh, and the MorphOS version is currently buyable, but vapourware - so isn't that a reason for anyone having bought it (DiscreetFX for one) to be a little more than annoyed?

    Quote:

    It would be great to have a fully working version for MorphOS in the near future.

    Yes, that's why I'd like to know if Frank's work is likely to amount to anything in the future, for us all, and not just a cupboard project that's going nowhere.
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  • »30.03.16 - 02:40
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    I saw it fully working at Neuss, and it looked nice. So it seems perfectly possible that it might be released I guess, based solely on the fact that it would be such a waste not releasing a product so close to finshed.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »30.03.16 - 10:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10538 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I did not mean to appear to be attacking Aladdin4D. Yes, all versions released work well.
    > It is a real tribute to the Amiga that this type of software originated on that platform.

    Is Aladdin4D available for any other platform than the original one?
  • »30.03.16 - 11:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10538 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > millions of dollars in Pagestream upgrades

    ;-)
  • »30.03.16 - 11:41
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    NewSense wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    It is a real tribute to the Amiga that this type of software originated on that platform.

    It didn't, it originated on the Atari ST. See PageStream Overview - History


    Sorry for the confusion (my posts are frequently good for that).
    I was refering to Aladdin 4D which like Lightwave originated on the Amiga.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.03.16 - 14:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10538 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Aladdin 4D [...] originated on the Amiga.

    And it's nowhere else yet, or is it?
  • »30.03.16 - 14:20
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Aladdin 4D [...] originated on the Amiga.

    And it's nowhere else yet, or is it?


    Well Andreas, there were plans for V6.0 that included other platforms.
    I would assume that DiscreetFX's retention of the rights for non-Amiga related platforms means that is still a consideration.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.03.16 - 15:02
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Elric
    Posts: 52 from 2003/4/3
    From: Bretagne Lorient
    Hello!

    Well, I've seen it working during the last Alchimie: It's a truely nice piece of software, and the exemples documents from it were very high professional brand... I would need it for many pro and private jobs! But as even a "light" Linux is too loud for me, I'm in the "starting-blocs" to buy it for MorphOS as soon as it is ready...
    Meanwhile, I use OpenOffice, but it's eavy, eavy, eavy...! And when it's possible, I use on MorphOS: Calimero, Cinnamon, SteamDraw, Smilla... But it's not PageStream!!!!

    MorphOSian salutations.
  • »30.03.16 - 15:55
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 236 from 2003/7/26
    From: Chicago, IL
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Aladdin 4D [...] originated on the Amiga.

    And it's nowhere else yet, or is it?


    Well Andreas, there were plans for V6.0 that included other platforms.
    I would assume that DiscreetFX's retention of the rights for non-Amiga related platforms means that is still a consideration.



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  • »30.03.16 - 17:49
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    pampers
    Posts: 1055 from 2009/2/26
    From: Tczew, Poland
    Quote from vimeo:

    Quote:

    from DiscreetFX4 years ago
    MorphOS 3.x
  • »30.03.16 - 19:02
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    pampers wrote:
    Quote from vimeo:

    Quote:

    from DiscreetFX4 years ago



    Not quite getting the meaning behind that post, Wiktor.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.03.16 - 20:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10538 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> Aladdin 4D [...] originated on the Amiga.

    >> And it's nowhere else yet, or is it?

    > there were plans for V6.0 that included other platforms.

    I know of the plans. My posting was about the present. It's just that it sounds a little strange to me calling the only platform a software runs on as the platform the software originated on.
  • »30.03.16 - 20:08
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