A possible future for MorphOS
  • Just looking around
    Posts: 15 from 2016/1/22
    > All your convergence box things is pretty 2000ish.
    > Look for example to the new Samsung Galaxy S7. That's how the market evolves.,
    I have to disagree, the market for smartphones and tablets is already saturated. Tablets and smartphones are the present and will soon be the past. The industry will find something else to sell to the customer who is already overequiped.

    Smartphones and tablets have already reached stagnation. They got their start by reducing the need for computers. They did not replace people's main computer but took the place of the third or fourth computer which many people used to have. They also allowed people to consume content on the go.

    > Who cares about some strange set top boxes.
    It would not be a mere set-top-box. It would integrate many different functions. Do you really think the customer wants to have all of:
    DVD or Blu-Ray player
    OTA-television DVR
    game console
    Roku, AppleTV or equivalent

    When they can have one box which has it all and also allows the following:
    Play indie games (consoles mostly have big studio games)
    Play high quality amateur (free) games
    Allow children to play educational games
    Acess textual data services (news, weather, road traffic, etc.)
    Watch/record a video filmed with one's cameraphone / tablet / digital camcorder
    View interactive multimedia content
    View HBBTV

    If there is no convergence box, people will still have to buy 4 boxes and cannot enjoy items on the second list. Why would people want to keep those 4 functions separate if they can be merged?
    Even Apple is slowly realizing the fact by adding an app store to the AppleTV. They are, however trying to make the change as slowly as possible because they realize that as soon as model has changed, the AppleTV will have become devices used to view videos from many different services rather than tied to the Itunes store, so they slow down the deployment trying to voluntarly limit the popularity of the store. The fact is that the market IS developping and will develop fully regardless of wether MorphOS enters it or not.

    > Real potent mobile phones, plus a few tablets will cater maintream consumer computer needs. Special purpose/geeks will stay laptop/big box.
    You do not address the question of content consumption at home in the living room. While smartphones and tablets allow to consume content on the go, what will be used in the future to consume content at home? There will have to be some sort of device connected to the TV display, why not enter that market?

    > The so called Wintel duo is lonhg gone. Intel is no more that tightly bound to MS. Intel is just a chip provider.
    I have to disagree. While GNU/Linux is often used for servers. Windows remains the only significant desktop platform and will stay so for quite a while.

    >> the change of ownership has just happened.
    >...3 years ago.
    Well, Imagination had to continue projects of the previous owner less they loose a lot more money. They only came with the first designs and project of their own 1 1/2 year ago. When you are coming from nothing, it takes time to build something, 1 1/2 year is not a lot. If the growth continues, they will only become a popular architecture around 2025 or so, not before.

    >> the networking gear manufacturers are switching from PPC to MIPS,
    >> the printer manufacturers are switching from PPC to MIPS
    > They are switching from PPC, yes. Have you got any sources backing up the claim they are switching to MIPS?
    For the networking gear manufacturer, just look a the list of current Cavium Octeon customers. With the Octeon, the MIPS is even getting into consumer routers, something which would have been unthinkable a few years ago (routerboard based desgns and others). Cisco uses MIPS in enterprise grade routers since it ditched PowerPC (it is also starting to use ARM). If you need specific examples of networking gear, let me know.
    For the printers, I will come back to it later.
    The fact is that the MIPS is growing, the 20 new licensees Imagination signed up is proof.

    >> the chinese are embracing MIPS as their favorite platform
    > They are embracing anything from ARM (too many to mention) over MIPS (Loongson, XBurst) and SPARC (FeiTeng) to Power (OpenPOWER CP1) and even Alpha (ShenWei)
    Well, it depends. Big brand smartphone and tablet makers, such as Lenovo or Xiaomi are using ARM since they try to compete with Western/Japanese/Korean manufacturers. Supercomputers, and military applications are using pretty much anything. On the other hand, cheap smartphones and tablets are using MIPS from the series proaptiv, interaptiv, Warrior I or Warrior P almost exclusively.

    > NXP (Ex-Freescale) cares about many more markets, including printers/imaging and routers/networking/telecom
    We will have to see what becomes of the NXP absorbed freescale division, things may or may not change. But you will recognize that from 2005 to 2015 or so, Freescale only cared about the automotive, military, industrial and satellite processor, with a tiny bit of avionics and base-station-on-a-chip processors. Did they do anything to combat the loss of the printer and router markets? No, not the least. They never tried to seriously sell their NAS designs either (which, strangely, hasn't prevented some manufacturers from chosing these designs anyway).

    > I don't think you know what you are talking about here. To me, you sound clueless regarding the resources required to design and manufacture a modern IC as complex as a multi-GHz SoC.
    I think you do not realize the value for Imagination Technologies to have an efficient performant and ultra-low latency operating system supplied to them.

    @Zlesea
    You talk as if performance was all that mattered. Low energy devices with low power consumption are just as worthwile, if not moreso.


    [color=#f2f2f2][ Edité par amigabeliever 10.03.2016 - 19:16 ][/color]
  • »11.03.16 - 00:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9046 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > What did Trevor say the development cost for the x1000 was?

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7183&start=831

    Regarding Cyrus (Plus) and Tabor:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11432&start=37

    > how much did every beta board cost to make?

    I don't know, sorry.

    > he had to add that price to the board

    Trevor said he didn't add the development costs of Nemo to the board's price. But he will do so with Cyrus (Plus) and Tabor.

    > People just don't expect design, development and testing to cost that much. But it does.

    Yes, and that's "just" board design. Chip design is even more expensive.
  • »11.03.16 - 00:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9046 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > They only came with the first designs and project of their own 1 1/2 year ago.

    More like 2½ to 3 years ago.

    http://imgtec.com/news/press-release/imagination-reveals-key-elements-of-its-new-mips-cpu-roadmap/
    http://imgtec.com/news/press-release/imagination-reveals-first-mips-warrior-p-class-cpu-core/

    > With the Octeon, the MIPS is even getting into consumer routers, something which
    > would have been unthinkable a few years ago

    MIPS has been in consumer routers with SoCs from the following companies for ages:

    - Broadcom
    - Qualcomm (Atheros, ZyDAS)
    - MediaTek (Ralink)
    - Lantiq (Infineon, Texas Instruments)
    - Ikanos (Conexant, Analog Devices)
    - Realtek
    - AMD
    - Renesas

    Source: http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/hardware/soc#companies

    > from 2005 to 2015 or so, Freescale only cared about the automotive, military, industrial
    > and satellite processor, with a tiny bit of avionics and base-station-on-a-chip processors.

    Freescale neglected SIMD-dependent military and aerospace/avionics market by replacing the e600-based MPC86xx with the e500mc-based and e5500-based QorIQ P series. They tried to correct this error later by reintroducing AltiVec in the e6500 core, but this was probably too late for many customers who had switched to Intel meanwhile.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7183&start=193

    Contrary to your claim, I see no indication that Freescale's care for the networking/telecom market has declined after 2005. The entire QorIQ line, which started in 2008, is centered on that market. The alleged decline of Freescale's share in that market is not a consequence of a change in Freescale's attitude but has other reasons, e.g. the increasing popularity of ARM back when QorIQ was still PPC-only (they have been counteracting with ARM-based QorIQ LS for a while).

    > Did they do anything to combat the loss of the printer and router markets?
    > No, not the least.

    They developed new SoCs for these markets.

    > They never tried to seriously sell their NAS designs either

    Freescale was a semiconductor company. Why should they have sold NAS devices?

    > I think you do not realize the value for Imagination Technologies to have an
    > efficient performant and ultra-low latency operating system supplied to them.

    I guess they don't and won't either ;-)

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 11.03.2016 - 11:48 ]
  • »11.03.16 - 00:53
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1752 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    amigabeliever schrieb:
    > All your convergence box things is pretty 2000ish.
    > Look for example to the new Samsung Galaxy S7. That's how the market evolves.,
    I have to disagree, the market for smartphones and tablets is already saturated. Tablets and smartphones are the present and will soon be the past. The industry will find something else to sell to the customer who is already overequiped.

    Smartphones and tablets have already reached stagnation. They got their start by reducing the need for computers. They did not replace people's main computer but took the place of the third or fourth computer which many people used to have. They also allowed people to consume content on the go.

    > Who cares about some strange set top boxes.
    It would not be a mere set-top-box. It would integrate many different functions. Do you really think the customer wants to have all of:
    DVD or Blu-Ray player
    OTA-television DVR
    game console
    Roku, AppleTV or equivalent

    When they can have one box which has it all and also allows the following:
    Play indie games (consoles mostly have big studio games)
    Play high quality amateur (free) games
    Allow children to play educational games
    Acess textual data services (news, weather, road traffic, etc.)
    Watch/record a video filmed with one's cameraphone / tablet / digital camcorder
    View interactive multimedia content
    View HBBTV



    All of that is possible with a (potent) smart phone (except replay of physical optical media, but they are dying out, as streaming is the current main approach). The smart phone will evolve to your "convergence box". New smart phones will do everything for Joe Average. Not that I massively applaude to this development route, but that's where the market is heading to. There's no place for MorphOS in the mass market. but only within a niche. And a niche will not sustain with custom hardware. I really don't see any advantage in custom hardware at all (unless you are a multi billion EUR/$$$ company, then it may scale for you).
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de
  • »11.03.16 - 01:11
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 15 from 2016/1/22
    > All of that is possible with a (potent) smart phone (except replay of physical optical media,
    > but they are dying out, as streaming is the current main approach).
    I disagree, lets make the breakdown of the equivalent fonctionality
    > DVD or Blu-Ray player
    You said it is unsupported, whether this is a serious limitation is debatable.
    > OTA-television DVR
    A smartphone or tablet no matter how powerfull cannot receive ATSC/DVB/ISDB-T/ISDB-Tb television, so it is unsupported.
    > game console
    It is supported (as a substitute)
    > Roku, AppleTV or equivalent
    It is supported (streaming service).

    for the extra potential functionality:
    > Play indie games (consoles mostly have big studio games)
    It is supported
    Play high quality amateur (free) games
    It is supported
    Allow children to play educational games
    It is supported
    Acess textual data services (news, weather, road traffic, etc.)
    It is sort of supported
    Watch/record a video filmed with one's cameraphone / tablet / digital camcorder
    It is supported.
    View interactive multimedia content
    It can be supported if the virtual equivalent of a multimedia CD-ROM becomes popular
    View HBBTV
    There is no ATSC/DVB/ISDB-T/ISDB-Tb support so no HBBTV support either

    For now, it seems that, to act as a convergence box, a smartphone or tablet lacks at least the following: DVD/Blu-Ray playback and OTA-TV tuning (recording would be no issue once there is physical tuning support), so no, it is not a substitute, even for someone not using optical media.

    Moreove, there is another important limitation, smartphones have displays <7in and tablets <13in, with audio through a tiny speaker or through headphones. People will keep wanting to watch videos and play games on a TV sized display with audio through proper loudspeakers. Saying that a smartphone or tablet can repleace a convergence box to plug on the TV implies that people would settle for watching on the very small screen which is unlikely. Finally, people who play games will want to do so with a physical joypad rather than a touchscreen.

    In other words, the reason why a smartphone or tablet cannot replace a convergence box plugged on a TV display is not the SoC, which is definitively powerfull enough. The reason is lack of adequate input/output capability: no media drive, too small display, no gaming input device, no OTA tuning, poor audio, etc..

    So I ask again, how can you see a smartphone or tablet acting as a convergence box plugged on a TV display?

    >> Did they do anything to combat the loss of the printer and router markets?
    > They developed new SoCs for these markets.
    Well, the last SoC series from freescale to become popular in these markets was the PowerQUICC III, with very few router companies sticking in to the e600 generation and a very few printers sticking in up to the QuorIQ. Obviously something went wrong.

    >> They never tried to seriously sell their NAS designs either
    > Freescale was a semiconductor company. Why should they have sold NAS devices?
    I never said they should have made NAS. They did have SoC for NAS and reference PCB designs. They never really tried sell those SoCs, yet some companies did nonetheless buy them which is amazing.

    >> I think you do not realize the value for Imagination Technologies to have an
    >> efficient performant and ultra-low latency operating system supplied to them.
    > I guess they don't and won't either ;-)
    I am not so sure, It is worth gold.
  • »11.03.16 - 03:01
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2368 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    acepeg wrote:
    I think so... Why continue only on big endian if WE rewrite the whole operating system breaking the backward compatibility ? We must introduce many features like memory protection and smp and...


    Compatibility does NOT have to be sacrificed if we run new apps in a separate box (outside Abox).



    They would not be integrated, which mean that the same thing (separated new and old binaries and their data) could be achieved by running the *old* environment in a separate box instead, like UAE. This correctly brings the primary focus to the new OS with the evolved features, and the legacy compatibility becomes even higher since also the Amiga HW is "present" through emulation.

    ;-)


    Again, incorrect.
    This was discussed awhile ago.
    Integration with one copy of Ambient for both boxes, possibly upgraded to hypervisor status, with pipelines and threads enabled for both boxes.
    Not only could you maintain 31 bit compatibility, but you could farm some processes out to the 64 bit part of the system.



    SMP (with new thread optimized scheduler) and SMP enabled applications, Memory Protection and resource tracking, 64-bit bit code and addressing, little endian code and data to run native on the new CPU architecture, etc, etc. Stuff like that isn't Amiga compatible and can't be mixed. Ambient is the first and most important application that should be be fully and entirely "NG" and utilize all the above mentioned to the fullest, with *no* compromizes for old-world compatibility. I really hope they will not try to build some kind of Frankensteins monster here, but keep it clean and tidy.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »11.03.16 - 06:30
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 160 from 2011/11/16
    one of my customers is using a entry-raid system based on ARM and Linux

    Freescale is bought by a company mainly offering ARM-based hardware and going in that direction too, I have never seen anything MIPS related anywhere. You use either X64 hardware or ARM, switching from one dying exotic platform (PPC) to another exotic platform (MIPS) that never lifted of makes no sense at all to me.

    BTW I also read that PPC has a better more clean concept than X86/X64. Even if that is true we see who won, the platform with more resources behind. Here the same again... MIPS has a more clean structure/concept. I mention the same again... even if true despite that the platforms with more money behind will win... X64 and ARM. Another good reason to support one of the big hardware platforms... porting is easier

    [ Editiert durch OlafSch 11.03.2016 - 09:17 ]
  • »11.03.16 - 09:11
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 160 from 2011/11/16
    @takemehomegrandma

    You correctly wrote that NG failed to attract many existing amigans because it changed too much and at the same time changed not enough to attract users from outside, sitting between chairs

    Assuming that MorphOS becomes a super-modern OS on the same level as the big three Windows, Linux and Mac even then it lacks the software, or how it is called today, the apps. People today (expecially the younger ones) are having less and less real computer experience and are mostly using devices with special apps on it. Where do you get the Software that attracts people from outside to use MorphOS and even buy hardware for it (they will certainly only support certain models)?

    Would it not be just a nice tech-demo without new special software written for it and how do you get developers to support it?
  • »11.03.16 - 09:33
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9046 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Saying that a smartphone or tablet can repleace a convergence box to plug on
    > the TV implies that people would settle for watching on the very small screen

    No, it doesn't.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_High-Definition_Link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#SlimPort

    >>> Did they do anything to combat the loss of the printer and router markets?
    >>> No, not the least.

    >> They developed new SoCs for these markets.

    > the last SoC series from freescale to become popular in these markets was the
    > PowerQUICC III, with very few router companies sticking in to the e600 generation
    > and a very few printers sticking in up to the QuorIQ.

    Sometimes you do care and try your best but still lose to contenders. That's (business) life. You can of course always say they didn't do enough to keep their market share, but claiming they didn't do the least when they were continuously developing and releasing SoCs for these markets is certainly nonsense.
    Btw, I think QorIQ has been more for routers than for printers.

    > Obviously something went wrong.

    Yes, but this wasn't Freescale not doing the least as you claimed.

    >>> They never tried to seriously sell their NAS designs either

    >> Freescale was a semiconductor company. Why should they have sold NAS devices?

    > I never said they should have made NAS. They did have SoC for NAS and
    > reference PCB designs.

    I consider it strange to call a SoC intended for NAS devices a "NAS design" :-)

    > They never really tried sell those SoCs

    What do you mean by that? Can you be more specific? As far as I can see, they have been selling QorIQ P1 (from 2010) and LS1 (from 2014) SoCs explicitly for NAS.

    >>> I think you do not realize the value for Imagination Technologies to have an
    >>> efficient performant and ultra-low latency operating system supplied to them.

    >> I guess they don't and won't either ;-)

    > I am not so sure, It is worth gold.

    Pipe dreams.
  • »11.03.16 - 11:45
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 160 from 2011/11/16
    @Andreas_Wolf

    I work on mobile webpages at the moment...

    the resolutions are similar like on desktops today but the display of a smartphone is a display of a smartphone and not like a HD TV

    so looking TV on such a small display might be cool but is not really fun

    your link show that you can connect it to a modern TV but why not using this TV then at all?

    [ Editiert durch OlafSch 11.03.2016 - 12:07 ]
  • »11.03.16 - 12:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9046 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > your link show that you can connect it to a modern TV but why not using this TV then at all?

    For the same reason the thread opener, which I replied to, wants to connect his 'convergence box' to a modern TV.
  • »11.03.16 - 14:43
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9046 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I have never seen anything MIPS related anywhere.

    Hard to believe. Nintendo 64 and Sony PS1, PS2 and PSP are MIPS-based. Both my routers have MIPS SoCs from Atheros (now Qualcomm). I bet you have MIPS-based devices in your home, too.
  • »11.03.16 - 16:09
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 15 from 2016/1/22
    >>>> I think you do not realize the value for Imagination Technologies to have an
    >>>> efficient performant and ultra-low latency operating system supplied to them.
    >>> I guess they don't and won't either ;-)
    >> I am not so sure, It is worth gold.
    > Pipe dreams.
    Let's see, why don't you say what would be the price of such a SoC? If it is less than 1 million, an excellent operating system is definitively an adequate compensation. If it is a lot more, some investors can be found to fund startup costs.

    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_High-Definition_Link
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#SlimPort
    This doesn't change the fact that a smartphone or tablet would still be a poor substitute for a convergence box. The input output capabilities do not correspond to the needs (no OTA tuners, several missing peripherals, etc.). To me, the fact that Apple added an application store to its AppleTV is proof that the market is slowly evolving towards the convergence box.

    > I consider it strange to call a SoC intended for NAS devices a "NAS design" :-)
    Well it is a whole design if you consider that it was accompanied by a PCB reference design which NAS manufacturers could use and have used as a starting point for their NAS boards. For example, boards in the PPC NAS models from Synology, as well as some other manufacturers are almost unchanged from the reference design. If it was only a SoC (and perhaps a test board but no board design which customers can reuse for their products), it would not be a NAS design but this isn't the case.

    @thread
    To all those who think that only ARM and X86 will survive, this is unlikely. The MIPS market is growing, give them 10 years and they will be used quite a bit. MorphOS doesn't need to chose a platform which is already popular, it needs to use a processor which will be popular, possiblly contributing (but not alone) to the said popularity.
    > "I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been."
    said by - Wayne Gretzky (famous Canadian hockey player)

    Moreover, in the file I said:
    > The very reason why the mobile market, with tablets and smartphones is dominated by the
    > ARM processor is quite simple, in the mobile market power consumption is of utmost
    > importance and x86 simply cannot comptete.
    This means that x86 will not become very popular in low power devices.
    > Interestingly, the very problem which the x86 architecture suffers when trying to penetrate
    > the BIG category [servers] is the exact same than in the SMALL category [mobile]:
    > power consumption. There is a limit to the possible TDP of a silicon dye without the
    > processor frying. When two processors are made at this limit, the most power efficient
    > will also be the most powerfull.

    And I also said:
    > Moreover, datacenter operators are complaining about their energy bills.
    > This is the very reason why everybody is trying (but failing) to build ARM servers.
    > The problem with these is that once the clockspeed and number of cores in an ARM
    > platform is scaled to server levels, its perfermance per watt is only comparable to x86
    > but not [much] better.
    The performance per watt metric will soon replace the performance per dollar as the choosing factor for datacenter operators. As soon as someone comes with an alternative to x86 which is more power efficient and easely available, it will become popular. In other words there will be another popular architecture along the x86 and the ARM since ARM has an adequate power efficiency in the mobility context but not the datacenter context. Finally, no one know for sure what that architecture will be but it will be but MIPS is a likely candidate, especially since its market share is growing and the interaptiv and Warrior-i are the processors of choice of cheap chinese tablets/smartphones which means it will have a significant market share very soon.

    As a conclusion, there WILL be an alternative to the ARM/x86 duopoly.
  • »11.03.16 - 22:23
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4024 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    @AmigaBeliever

    MIPS has been around a very long time.
    What makes you think it is going to blossom over the next ten years?

    For that matter, what makes that more likely than PowerPC regaining momentum from Power8 on?

    And X64 or ARM?
    Ten years from now, those may not be in the place they are now.

    If all we need to do is 'pick an ISA', hey we already have one.
    Why trade down?
    "Fiery the angels rose, and as they rose deep thunder roll'd / Around their shores: indignant burning with the fires of Orc."

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.03.16 - 22:38
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 131 from 2004/11/18
    I don't say that MIPS is not great. But morphos need already existing machine . there is no money to remake à pegasos. For now morphos will not developp any hardware. Genesi can do it but for now genesi search to be viable and as i know a small market can't generate suffisant incomes. For Morphos the way is definitly to support a well made and a long life cycle machine. Targetting an Intel coré i5 or others is not a so bad choice cause of documentation. And Intel build powerfull processors which have a long life cycle. In France we have settop box which is based on Intel soc. And it has à blueray 3d support connected to a 250go nas. This box can also launch games or apps. I use it since 4 years and except à small bug with blueray i never have a failure. So i can say Intel is not so bad ;-)

    [ Edited by acepeg 12.03.2016 - 00:01 ]
  • »11.03.16 - 22:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9046 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > why don't you say what would be the price of such a SoC?

    http://www.adapteva.com/andreas-blog/semiconductor-economics-101/

    I estimate development of a SoC as described by you would cost at least 150 million USD.
  • »12.03.16 - 00:55
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4024 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >at least 150 million USD

    Let's start a bounty.
    "Fiery the angels rose, and as they rose deep thunder roll'd / Around their shores: indignant burning with the fires of Orc."

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »12.03.16 - 02:37
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    dekanyz
    Posts: 87 from 2013/2/6
    From: Hungary
    Quote:

    acepeg wrote:
    I don't say that MIPS is not great. But morphos need already existing machine . there is no money to remake à pegasos. For now morphos will not developp any hardware. Genesi can do it but for now genesi search to be viable and as i know a small market can't generate suffisant incomes. For Morphos the way is definitly to support a well made and a long life cycle machine. Targetting an Intel coré i5 or others is not a so bad choice cause of documentation. And Intel build powerfull processors which have a long life cycle....


    I agree with that.
    Not mention the fact, that many programs are coming from the 'intel world' and the porting could be also easier in many cases. (For example, see the OWB's javascript bug)



    [ Edited by dekanyz 12.03.2016 - 06:20 ]
  • »12.03.16 - 06:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9046 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > that many programs are coming from the 'intel world' and the porting could
    > be also easier in many cases. (For example, see the OWB's javascript bug)

    MIPS can run little-endian, too ;-) Some recent MIPS cores even abandoned big-endianness altogether.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&start=583
  • »12.03.16 - 07:57
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1723 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Let's put this in a little perspective: The Cinnemaware remake of Wings for NG Amigas need 300 pre-orders to be made. After some 6 months or so it has gor 181 pre-orders. A little more than half. Sure, it's a pretty expensive pre-order that doesn't cater to all tastes but it still says something about the state of the NG scene as a whole.

    Which executive is going to look at figures like that and come to the conclusion that it makes economical sense to pour out who knows how many millions of dollars into this project.

    From a company's standpoint, it's makes tons more sense to invest in Linux.

    If MorphOS is going to break into mainstream usage it first need modern, new and affordable hardware to run on in order to show people what it can do with existing technology. Investing in untested technology and see how it goes was what Genesi did with the Pegasos. It was not a success but a good try, but to hope to do this again makes thirty kind of no sense to me.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »12.03.16 - 12:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4024 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    acepeg wrote:
    I think so... Why continue only on big endian if WE rewrite the whole operating system breaking the backward compatibility ? We must introduce many features like memory protection and smp and...


    Compatibility does NOT have to be sacrificed if we run new apps in a separate box (outside Abox).



    They would not be integrated, which mean that the same thing (separated new and old binaries and their data) could be achieved by running the *old* environment in a separate box instead, like UAE. This correctly brings the primary focus to the new OS with the evolved features, and the legacy compatibility becomes even higher since also the Amiga HW is "present" through emulation.

    ;-)


    Again, incorrect.
    This was discussed awhile ago.
    Integration with one copy of Ambient for both boxes, possibly upgraded to hypervisor status, with pipelines and threads enabled for both boxes.
    Not only could you maintain 31 bit compatibility, but you could farm some processes out to the 64 bit part of the system.



    SMP (with new thread optimized scheduler) and SMP enabled applications, Memory Protection and resource tracking, 64-bit bit code and addressing, little endian code and data to run native on the new CPU architecture, etc, etc. Stuff like that isn't Amiga compatible and can't be mixed. Ambient is the first and most important application that should be be fully and entirely "NG" and utilize all the above mentioned to the fullest, with *no* compromizes for old-world compatibility. I really hope they will not try to build some kind of Frankensteins monster here, but keep it clean and tidy.


    No doubt it will be a clean re-implementation (cleaner than the current 68K/PPC schism).
    But devoting one core to legacy apps is hardly a 'Frankenstein monster'.
    I am currently using a VM hypervisor package to manage another non-SMP micro kernel OS and it works quite well.
    Integration of the non-SMP version with a more powerful SMP enabled OS would just make things better.
    It is not really a compromise, its just evolution.
    "Fiery the angels rose, and as they rose deep thunder roll'd / Around their shores: indignant burning with the fires of Orc."

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »12.03.16 - 14:15
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 353 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    amigabeliever wrote:

    Let's see, why don't you say what would be the price of such a SoC? If it is less than 1 million, an excellent operating system is definitively an adequate compensation. If it is a lot more, some investors can be found to fund startup costs.


    I wouldn't bother with a custom SoC. It'll cost an enormous amount of money and it'll be obsolete within a year.

    Quote:

    This doesn't change the fact that a smartphone or tablet would still be a poor substitute for a convergence box. The input output capabilities do not correspond to the needs (no OTA tuners, several missing peripherals, etc.). To me, the fact that Apple added an application store to its AppleTV is proof that the market is slowly evolving towards the convergence box.


    Convergence box? You mean those little Android TV boxes you can get off eBay for £25 ($35 US)?
    It's a well established market, and Android pretty much owns it.

    Quote:

    @thread
    To all those who think that only ARM and X86 will survive, this is unlikely. The MIPS market is growing, give them 10 years and they will be used quite a bit. MorphOS doesn't need to chose a platform which is already popular, it needs to use a processor which will be popular, possiblly contributing (but not alone) to the said popularity.


    You do know Imagination just lost their CEO because they were losing so much money?
    Ironically, he was probably doing the right thing. They were big in the GPU market but have lost almost all of their sales to ARM's Mali GPUs. Diverging was probably a good idea, but when they bought MIPs, rather unfortunately MIPs lost their biggest customer (>50% sales) the same day.

    Quote:

    In other words there will be another popular architecture along the x86 and the ARM since ARM has an adequate power efficiency in the mobility context but not the datacenter context.


    Why do you keep saying this?
    The current ARM implementations targeted for the datacentre have all been based on older silicon processes thus giving Intel an advantage. Once they switch to a competitive process that will all change, Qualcomm, APM and possibly AMD, all plan to have 16nm chips this year.

    MIPs have no advantage over ARM in this area, it's all down to silicon process. I don't know if anyone is even developing a MIPs server chip, never mind a competitive one.
  • »14.03.16 - 00:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9046 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > when they bought MIPs, rather unfortunately MIPs lost their biggest customer
    > (>50% sales) the same day.

    Could you elaborate please?

    > Qualcomm [...] plan to have 16nm chips this year.

    It's even 14 nm for Kryo.

    http://www.qualcomm.com/news/snapdragon/2015/09/02/snapdragon-820-and-kryo-cpu-heterogeneous-computing-and-role-custom
  • »14.03.16 - 08:55
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 15 from 2016/1/22
    >What makes you think it is going to blossom over the next ten years?
    The change of owner has brought some growth. Moreover, the market needs a server processor which is power efficient and the ARM alternative is no better than x86. Finally, MIPS is also being used in cheap chinese smartphones and tablets due to the low cost, high energy efficiency and availability of the Android operating system. In other words, it has potential both in the datacenter (due to high energy efficiency) and the mobile world (due to both energy efficiency and availability of Android).

    > Convergence box? You mean those little Android TV boxes you can get off eBay for £25 ($35 US)?
    No, these only do basic streaming, please read my posts again. Moreover, the Roku is much more popular than GoogleTV/AndroidTV.

    >>In other words there will be another popular architecture along the x86 and the ARM since ARM
    >> has an adequate power efficiency in the mobility context but not the datacenter context.
    > Why do you keep saying this?
    > The current ARM implementations targeted for the datacentre have all been based on older
    > silicon processes thus giving Intel an advantage
    Well, Intel is not good, even if they get to the level of Intel, it would still be terribly bad. MIPS and PPC do have a higher power efficiency and many datacenter operators want something with a power efficiency better than what Intel (and soon: ARM) can offer.

    > http://www.adapteva.com/andreas-blog/semiconductor-economics-101/
    > I estimate development of a SoC as described by you would cost at least 150 million USD.
    Well, the link which you supply states that the cost won't necessarly be that high. According to your link much of the cost is in paying the hardware engineers and the IP licencing cost. Sometimes it may be possible to pay a cost per unit produced for the IP licencing, this allows much lower upfront costs (but much higher total costs). For the cost of the hardware engineers, the key is to have only 3 engineers to keep costs reasonnable. This cost can be brought even lower if we find some who are former Amiga users and do it as a labour of love, similar to the way the developers of the MorphOS team are not paid the "true price".
  • »16.03.16 - 23:52
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    deka
    Posts: 118 from 2013/2/12
    From: Hungary, Kecsk...
    Quote:

    amigabeliever wrote:
    This cost can be brought even lower if we find some who are former Amiga users and do it as a labour of love, similar to the way the developers of the MorphOS team are not paid the "true price".


    A have some suspenses about this:

    1: Starting as a hobby project? This doesn't sound soo much well...
    Many project went to the trash, because of the lack of interest/toughness anymore.
    Not mention the time, what the development needs. Colud take years to have a single mainboard... I bet, it will be outdated, when it appears.

    2: There should be at least two version of this machine: a portable (notebook) and a desktop. I think it is not feasible at all. At the other league, there isn't any notebook at all until today, altough they were working on it.

    3: The machines should be cheap (or at least comparable priced to the another machines). Who want to pay for a similarly powered machine 4x-5x more? This is the case with A-EON computers now...

    4: Also should be easily serviceable, ROHS compliant (for EU users)...

    I think, a well supported Intel/ARM machine from a reliable company isn't soo huge compromise, compared to the mentioned problems.
  • »17.03.16 - 09:17
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