Genesi & PowerPC
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1907 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    Anything with a newer CPU and modern hardware is better than aging Mac hardware. Getting it for a fair price is even better. Here is hoping we get something!
    AmigaOne X5000 with MorphOS Installed
    Powerbook 1.67GHZ
    Powermac Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 (Registration #1894)
    A4000T CSPPC, Mediator
    Need Repairs, upgrades or a recap in the USA? Visit my website at http://www.acill.com
  • »10.11.15 - 22:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > HYPErion won't support a board without stupid built in.

    Is that the reason for the Pegasos II port of OS4? :-P

    > part of the crazy markup is to pay HYPErion to port OS4.

    Of course it is, but that's peanuts in comparison to the NRE cost stake per board.

    > There is no other explanation.

    For what?

    > If Genesi made such a board, OS4 probably wouldn't come to it.

    OS4 finally made it to the Pegasos II, remember? :-)
  • »10.11.15 - 22:02
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    There is no point in a new "Pegasos" as none of the SoCs by Freescale is powerfull enought to hold it's water against a PowerMacG5, with only one core used probraly not even a PowerMacG4. You'll end up with something somewhere between the SAM460 and X5000.


    A new "Efika" on the other hand..... sound USB2,GBit and SATA onboard, 1 or 2GB soldered, a SoC slightly more powerfull than a Peg2 and 1 PCIe for GFX all for 150-250€ retail....

    Basicly a Tabor with all the stupid removed ;)



    That is one option, but it makes us look like we are chasing A-eon/Hyperion.

    How about a T2080 based board?
    At up to 1.8 GHz it slower than the P5020 in the X5000, a lot faster than the P1022 in tabor, and only slightly more than twice the price of a P1022 (or in other words a fraction of the cost of the P5020).

    And its a four core, eight thread e6500 based CPU. That, under SMP would beat our Macs.

    And it could be priced close to (or slightly higher than) what the Peg2 was originally. In other word, not dirt cheap, but not two grand.

    How about a name even?

    Perseus

    Better than existing solutions and fairly cheap.

    My two cents (with a definite nod to Andreas and several others).

    PS - Stop worrying about Hyperion. Our primary focus should be ...well US. Hyperion is a business, if it would sell copies of OS4, why wouldn't they support it?

    [ Edited by Jim 10.11.2015 - 18:12 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.11.15 - 22:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Genesi already demonstrated that they can design a board and sell it without needing
    > to sacrifice a first born. I got my Pesasos I w/April 2 for $299 when it first came out.

    The Pegasos I was designed without involvement from Genesi (or even Thendic France).
  • »10.11.15 - 22:13
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > nothing AEon or ACube wasn't isn't and won't be supported till years later.

    With the initial Sam440 it was one year. In case of Sam460 and X1000 it's not really public knowledge but I guess it was less.
  • »10.11.15 - 22:27
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    One other advantage to my last proposal?
    The e6500 cored T2080 features AltiVec instructions.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.11.15 - 22:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Why did Efika never get a look?

    Because opposed to the MorphOS team, Hyperion was never offered money by Genesi to port their OS :-)
  • »10.11.15 - 22:31
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Is that the reason for the Pegasos II port of OS4? :-P




    You know that port was done well after the board was discontinued, and due to the fact there were no hardware partners at the time.
  • »10.11.15 - 22:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    The Pegasos I was designed without involvement from Genesi (or even Thendic France).


    That's interesting considering I remember buying one from Bill himself and Wikipedia disagrees with you.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasos
  • »10.11.15 - 22:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If it's a single 32bit cpu, just give it 4GB. [...] A 64bit Pegasos 3 would be most welcome.

    All sane PPC CPU options are 64-bit. There is not one single advantage in using a 32-bit PPC chip, not even price. Same goes for multi-core vs. single-core.
  • »10.11.15 - 22:45
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> The Pegasos I was designed without involvement from Genesi (or even Thendic France).

    > I remember buying one from Bill himself

    Yes, Thendic France and later Genesi marketed and sold the Pegasos I, but they came into play only after the board was designed by bplan.

    > Wikipedia disagrees with you.
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasos

    No, it doesn't.
  • »10.11.15 - 22:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> HYPErion won't support a board without stupid built in.

    >> Is that the reason for the Pegasos II port of OS4? :-P

    > that port was done well after the board was discontinued

    You mean the "stupid built in" a board vanishes after it is discontinued?

    > and due to the fact there were no hardware partners at the time.

    The Sam440ep was released in 2007 with OS4 released for it in 2008. OS4 for the Pegasos II was released in 2009, shortly before the Sam440ep-flex was released with OS4.
  • »10.11.15 - 22:57
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > IIRC A-Eonkit advertised spending $2M in development costs.

    The 1.2 million USD agreement was for both Cyrus (Plus) and Tabor.

    http://www.a-eon.com/18-10-2013-3.pdf
  • »10.11.15 - 23:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I would love a tiny computer. Like the Efika, or RaPi. [...]
    > A single core 1.8 Ghz G4 with Altivec would do the trick (if available).

    Fastest G4 is 1.7 GHz MPC7448 for 267 USD, which would need a northbridge chip and onboard controllers for everything. Fastest SoC G4 is 1.5 GHz MPC8641 for 379 USD, which would need onboard controllers for everything except Ethernet. Why not do as Jim suggested and settle with the 1.8 GHz quad-core T2080 for 140 USD instead, which has everything integrated except graphics and audio? It isn't a G4, but who cares as long as it has AltiVec?
  • »10.11.15 - 23:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > slightly more than twice the price of a P1022

    2.6 times, to be exact ;-)

    > a fraction of the cost of the P5020

    Indeed, half the price.

    > it could be priced close to (or slightly higher than) what the Peg2 was originally.

    I think it could beat it in price. Don't forget that the Pegasos II required northbridge chip and southbridge chip, none of which would be needed with the T2080. The only things missing in the T2080 compared to the controllers on the Pegasos II would be FireWire (who needs that?) and audio.
    This reasoning is assuming a production quantity similar to that of Pegasos II, of course.
  • »11.11.15 - 00:01
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> The Pegasos I was designed without involvement from Genesi (or even Thendic France).

    > I remember buying one from Bill himself

    Yes, Thendic France and Genesi marketed and sold the Pegasos I, but they came into play only after the board was designed by bplan.

    > Wikipedia disagrees with you.
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasos

    No, it doesn't.


    Ok, so we're splitting hairs ;-)
  • »11.11.15 - 00:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Ok, so we're splitting hairs ;-)

    No, just refuting your notion that Genesi was involved in the design of the Pegasos I.
  • »11.11.15 - 00:07
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Fastest G4 is 1.7 GHz MPC7448 for 267 USD, which would need a northbridge chip and onboard controllers for everything. Fastest SoC G4 is 1.5 GHz MPC8641 for 379 USD, which would need onboard controllers for everything except Ethernet. Why not do as Jim suggested and settle with the 1.8 GHz quad-core T2080 for 140 USD instead, which has everything integrated except graphics and audio? It isn't a G4, but who cares as long as it has AltiVec?


    It is really sad there is nothing in the consumer price range to rival a G5.

    I know the Power8 would be a square peg trying to fit in a round hole and expensive as hell, but don't the individual cores clock up to 5Ghz? Ignoring the price issue for a second, wouldn't a Power8 be able to dethrone the G5 for fastest PPC on the desktop?
  • »11.11.15 - 00:11
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Ok, so we're splitting hairs ;-)

    No, just refuting your notion that Genesi was involved in the design of the Pegasos I.


    Either splitting hairs or your grasp of english is not as good as I thought. Bill Buck is not a hardware designer AFAIK. The crux of my point stands. The board was designed and sold for $299, bundled with a teeshirt and several games. DCE didn't run a charity.

    -Edit-
    It also included a really poorly done "retail" MorphOS CD ;-)

    [ Edited by redrumloa 10.11.2015 - 19:20 ]
  • »11.11.15 - 00:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Either splitting hairs or your grasp of english is not as good as I thought.

    Maybe the latter. I leave that for others to decide.

    > Bill Buck is not a hardware designer AFAIK.

    That's obviously not what I'm talking about. I was referring to the chronology, i.e. that the involvement of the Genesi forerunner Thendic France started only when the Pegasos I design was completed. Genesi was involved when the Pegasos II was designed. This doesn't imply that Bill Buck had a hand in routing its board components, does it?

    > DCE didn't run a charity.

    DCE wasn't paid for the manufacturing but only for the lease of the mounting machines. It was bplan staff who operated them.
  • »11.11.15 - 00:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > don't the individual cores clock up to 5Ghz?

    Yes, they do.

    > wouldn't a Power8 be able to dethrone the G5 for fastest PPC on the desktop?

    Absolutely. Everything starting from POWER6 on would, probably even POWER5 (which the rumoured PPC980 aka "G6" was supposed to be derived from).
  • »11.11.15 - 00:43
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    I know the Power8 would be a square peg trying to fit in a round hole and expensive as hell, but don't the individual cores clock up to 5Ghz? Ignoring the price issue for a second, wouldn't a Power8 be able to dethrone the G5 for fastest PPC on the desktop?


    Dethroning a G5 isn't exactly difficult these days, I expect most high end phones can do it now.

    POWER8 should completely annihilate it without going anywhere near 5GHz.
  • »11.11.15 - 00:50
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    minator wrote:
    Dethroning a G5 isn't exactly difficult these days, I expect most high end phones can do it now.


    I meant it in an "Amiga/MorphOS" context, which is why I specified single core :-) I doubt single core performance of these phones. without extra hardware, would dethrone the single core performance of a G5. But again, I mean speficially for running Amiga-likeNG code.

    Quote:

    POWER8 should completely annihilate it without going anywhere near 5GHz.


    What is the FPU situation on a P8? Does it have altivec? IIRC A_W posted a link some time back to a Tyan based P8 system that was $4k. if a company operating in this market wants to drop something high end, wouldn't that make more sense? I'd pay for a P8 based computer at $4k all day, compared to an X1000 at $3300.
  • »11.11.15 - 01:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I doubt single core performance of these phones. without extra hardware, would
    > dethrone the single core performance of a G5.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11328&forum=11&start=4

    > What is the FPU situation on a P8?

    Compliant with IEEE-754, so standard PPC FPU.

    > Does it have altivec?

    Yes, POWER series has it since POWER6. IBM calls it VMX, though.

    > IIRC A_W posted a link some time back to a Tyan based P8 system that was $4k.

    US$2.85k.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9463&start=76

    Someone said it was not really available for purchase, though:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9463&start=84
  • »11.11.15 - 07:58
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2028 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    redrumloa schrieb:


    It is really sad there is nothing in the consumer price range to rival a G5.



    Generally the e6500 based processors should compete well with the 970s. Unfortunately Freesacle doesn't drive the clock up that much, as they are going more into parallelisation.
    Real world tests of single core performance of a Powermac g5 @2.7 GHz vs. a T2080 clocked @1.8 GHZ would be interesting to see. Dunno how Ativec competes against VMX.

    But even if it would stay below the PowerMac G5 performance in single core it would be smaller, new and energy efficient. Many (me included) don't buy into G5 kit because of fear of leaky cooling, energy consumption and the neat, but bulky case. A T2080 design could be attractive in this regard - given the price tag stays sane.
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  • »11.11.15 - 08:52
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