>No they didn´t. They took some old Porsche design (Beetle) and modified it as much as it takes to look like a real Porsche, but it isn´t.

Actually, the developers maintaining MUI on MorphOS might be insulted by this.
Since, to the best of my knowledge, they have been responsible for correcting bugs in MUI4 (and we can leave the argument against "enhancements" alone).

It doesn't look like Stefan has contributed in years.

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Since MUI is closed source, it would be difficult to share improvements with AROS developers without making pretty much the entire toolkit open source.

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Hyperion Entertainment´s leading OS developers have expressed on numerous occasions that they strongly dislike MUI. For this very reason, MUI has only been included as an unregistered third-party contribution in their software package.

It does not seem to be particularly likely that these folks would now suddenly be convinced to pay licensing fees for newer versions of this GUI toolkit...

As for AROS, like I wrote above, licensing is a very, very serious issue. There had been discussions to raise funding for making the last official 68k release of MUI open source, which should increase the overall compatibility at least, but the main maintainer of Zune felt that it would be better to focus on improving Zune as-is rather than port existing MUI code, which is an opinion that is maybe worth to be considered.

@ OlafSch

> you seem to be fixed on "red vs. blue" it seems.

Seems to you but is not the case which you can easily find out because of I already mentioned AROS and use it personally.

> Why noone ever has helped the Aros devs to improve it if MorphOS camp are the good and only the others (OS4 camp) against cooperation.

Why do you throw in “good” for MOS Team and imply that others are not good by doing so? Don’t mix facts with your guesses. Did AROS camp ask MOS Team to open the source to make it available in AROS? Maybe it’s the license that stops this. Maybe it’s because MOS Team does not want to go open source. And maybe it’s the understandable reason to not give away your source code (which took you 20 years to develop) away for free to competing platforms who can make money out of it. That’s up to the author and no one else.

> The truth is that both camps are not really cooperative (except some people like Fab or Stefan Stuntz).

I agree to this although I cannot say about stuntzi. Cooperation could and should be much better between the camps.

> Why having MUI as standard equal on all platforms? Because it would make porting easier,

Everyone knows that and I think everyone agrees on that. Some do it just silently.

> Zune is far behind? Even if for porting exactly which applications needing MUI5? It is getting updated for OWB 1.25 right now, I do not see many more applications needing it. You?

Yes, it is. I’m not only talking about a bare functionality in Zune but also about graphic glitches, redraw problems and other misbehaviours. Many of them are publicly known, so no need to discuss them here. And naming one application for compatibility is a start but not complete.


@ Jim

>> MUI is closed source anyway.

> Is it?

Hint: Answer the counter question: is it open source?

> Were the rights wholly transferred to the MorphOS development team, or does Stefan Stuntz, who Andre once refereed to as "[the]creator of MUI (Magic User Interface)" still retain rights?

Hint: Do rights on code change change its license?

> Obviously Stuntz doesn't object to these new projects.
Maybe it’s vice versa and he agreed to them because he is the originator of MUI, so he owns all rights to the code.

> Offer to license the code, but hard feeling and hubris may interfere with that.

This was already done.

> OR, let them struggle to finesse it on their own.

Hehe, this was also already done

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I mentioned Stefan because i found a text (I think interview) where he said that he was open to make available MUI38 for the other camps but others from MorphOS team saw MUI as a core component and opposed to it. But it is only a guess. Fab always was open. And of course the MorphOS team gave back changes when using Aros sources in MorphOS.

Regarding MUI, I asked one of the MorphOS devs because the software (68k) does not work with Zune, answer was not his problem but problem for the Aros devs. Geit mentioned not supporting other platforms because of this. It is wrong attitude, it might not be a problem when a MorphOS program is not running anywhere else but it is a problem for MorphOS when software from other platforms is not ported to MorphOS because of the mentioned incompatibilities.

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Despite objections, the source of an old MUI version was made available, which is exactly what version 4 of "MUI-AmigaOS" is based on.

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Actually, most AROS software is open source so all it takes is a volunteer to adapt a piece of software so it works with MUI5 on MorphOS. Porting closed source MorphOS software to AROS, on the other hand, requires the involvement of the original author who may or may not be willing to share his work with others.

So, the different development models of these communities most likely cause AROS and MorphOS to be affected in fairly distinct ways by the issue you describe.

>> MUI is closed source anyway.

> Is it?

Yes, that's why MUI4+ has to be reimplemented for OS3/OS4 instead of compiled/ported from the original source. And it's also why AROS has Zune instead of MUI.

>> our developers have enhanced Stefan's creation.

> No they didn´t.

I think Jim's "our" means completely different persons than your "they".

@kamelito

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Click to enlarge:




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MUI4 was released as part of MorphOS 2.0 late June 2008 (more than seven years ago). It has evolved since.

There never was a MUI4 released for any other platform, hence no MUI4 exists for OS4 (or AROS). So to answer your question, I suppose "they" consider MUI4 and MUI5 as being for MorphOS.

> i found a text (I think interview) where he said that he was open to make available
> MUI38 for the other camps but others from MorphOS team saw MUI as a core
> component and opposed to it.

Yes, text linked from there:
http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9339&forum=3&start=12

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FrankenMUI is not a port. Stupid features were added like hell to FrankenMUI and MorphOS is the problem?

If I want to clone some API to make my system compatible to something else, then rule #1 is to not add any features as this will make my API incompatible.

So, as we know/learned FrankenMUI got new features to make it "better".

This means FrankenMUI was intentional made incompatible to not support porting stuff from AmigaOS to MorphOS.

So from day one there was no will to keep FrankenMUI kompatible for multi platform coding on AmigaOS4 side. And again the MorphOS Team is blamed! Nice!

Thats the problem with OpenSource. You lose control and create incompatible branches.

>Hint: Answer the counter question: is it open source?

I rather got that when posting the question.

The problem being that Stefan apparently has no problem allowing an enhanced 3.8 to be called 4 for Amiga OS.

And yes Andreas, I meant our developers.
AKA the best developers still working in the Amiga community.

And I understand the reason for crediting Stuntz as a developer (since he was at one time and made a significant contribution), but it doesn't appear that he is an active one.
Did stopping his payments for his work factor into this (as it obviously hasn't deterred others)?

And why no word from him?
Is he pissed off at the MorphOS community?
Does Amiga MUI4 really have his approval?

An open MUI 3.8 I could understand, but who has the right to say what is and isn't MUI4?

Getting answers to this questions appears problematic w/o Stuntz's input.

I guess, since we have a better version, its not really our problem (and they can have Reaction and Zune).



[ Edited by Jim 02.10.2015 - 13:04 ]

If team morphos plans to go the x86 route, they will likely use even more aros sources and so they will need to port mui over in order to get ambient working....
Everyone else has no serious need to run mui.
There is zune.. If something doesn't work it will be fixed. Why should aros care for the problems of others ?

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thanks

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FrankenMUI I think is not opensource because based on the old MUI38 sources. You moan about the existence of different MUI implementations? That only happened because the MorphOS team not offered MUI implementations for the other platforms, if not open then at least as binary. The need was there so the others started their own implementations. Why should they ask the MorphOS team there then? I know that the MorphOS team members think different there but to me it was a wasted chance and it harms MorphOS finally because software not ported. But everyone can decide himself.

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AFAIK there never was an officially approved release of "FrankenMUI". But such petty formalities has of course never stopped Thore Böckelmann (the serial copyright infringer) et al, who simply wrote up something on their own based on some early beta-code they got a hold of.

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Of course they don't. That would mean money going in the "wrong direction" (i.e. to developers), and this isn't really Hyperion's style.

Instead the OS4 development leader (who officially hates MUI BTW, like the Friedens and everyone else over there) promise "MUI4" to the OS4 users, they create an unofficial fork that isn't fully compatible anyway, they name their creation "MUI4", and release it through the official OS4 update system. But as a "contribution". No money spent.


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Huh?

A standalone Workbench 1.3 package with minor updates is being sold by Cloanto as we speak! As is Workbench 2.1! As is Workbench 3.1, which has some updates worth noticing, and this you could even get in the shape of real Floppy disks!

And all this (and more) is also part of the Amiga Forever package, as is Workbench 3.X which is more or less (and more and less ) equal to H&P's AmigaOS 3.9 (minus a few things, but with later versions of many components, and some additional software bundled on top of it all).

All in all, I think it's a safe bet that Workbench outsell OS4 by a vast magnitude, both in money and units!

And it for sure it has more users! Both in emulation and on real Amigas!


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MorphOS got all the good Amiga "standards" (Poseidon, MUI, Cybergraphics, etc), OS4 got the leftovers. It's a "sour grapes" thing, as simple as that!

Sour Grapes
In an old fable by Aesop, a hungry fox noticed a bunch of juicy grapes hanging from a vine. After several failed attempts to reach the grapes, the fox gave up and insisted that he didn't want them anyway because they were probably sour.

Nowadays when somebody expresses sour grapes, it means that they put down something simply because they can't have it.

The phrase is often used incorrectly as another way to express bitterness or resentment.
"Winning a million dollars would just be a big hassle anyway."

Sour grapes ... And I am thinking about mos...
A tear for the stupid Sheeps bashing aros in the sat while ending with morphos ng based on aros...
Which is ok if they share a little bit more resources with the rest of the world.

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Would you mind pointing out the sheep that are bashing AROS in this discussion thread?

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This is pure speculation on your part.

Nope it is a reaction to a signature in this thread and a very safe speculation

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That's news to me. Do you have any sources for such claims?


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Again, do you have any sources for such claims?


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Eh, no? Because it's not actually *MUI4*, but an unofficial and unapproved and unlicensed "FrankenMUI" created by unaffiliated people posing as "The MUI for AmigaOS Development Team" (which falsely implies some state of official status, doesn't it? Like they are now the owners of the MUI project or something) that isn't fully compatible and/or comparable to the real MUI4?

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Not saying they won't, but why do you feel they would?

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Eh, ported over to what? x86? I think this is a safe bet!

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Is that fully at MUI 3.8 level yet, feature wise? Long time since I checked...

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Well, good for zune then!

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Eehh...?

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Honestly, you're not making a terribly lot of sense today.



Ah, well...

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I, for one, would not bet on it.

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I doubt MorphOS NG will use that much AROS code as it will probably differ quite a bit from MorphOS or AROS of today.

Feels like aw.net..

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Changes were not visible to users so it was not advertised in release notes. It was not just MUI5 but the underlying BOOPSI system was extended.

>That's news to me. Do you have any sources for such claims?

Did I claim something other than questions?

Like where IS Stuntz on all this?

>Feels like aw.net..

Nope its getting closer to Moobunny.

And its not really our issue.

Do the AROS and OS4 people want something for free?