Workbench for the Future?
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    (First, this is not directly a MorphOS related post, I actually meant to post this at Amiga.org, but it seems eliyahu has banned me for no apparent reason, so I'll post it here instead (in the "General Discussion" forum))



    The recent news on Amiga-News.de about Cloanto made me think a bit. I recall I read somewhere/sometime at the Cloanto website where they pointed out that historically (up to a certain point in time of course), nobody really spoke about “Amiga OS”. And when I think of it, it strikes me that this is actually true!

    Back in the days, you mostly spoke of “Amiga” strictly from a hardware context. Like “I have an Amiga 500” and “Commodore has now released the Amiga 1200”, etc. It was the *machine* that was the point, the center of everyone’s attention. The “OS” simply came with that hardware, it was updated mostly when new hardware was released in order to enable the new hardware features, and it was never really anyone’s focus. If anything, you would refer to “Kickstart” versions and “Workbench” versions, and mostly in cases when (for example) wondering if you could make your Amiga 500 run programs that required stuff from later Workbench versions from newer Amiga models. “Yes you can run Workbench 3.1 on an Amiga 500, but you will also need to upgrade the Kickstart ROM in order to do so”.

    Workbench!



    AFAIK the term “Amiga OS” was introduced at the latest possible point in the original Amiga’s history. Just before Commodore died they had finished the Kickstart /Workbench version 3.1, and even managed to get an adapted version of it on the market with the CD32 before going bankrupt. After the bankruptcy was a fact and Commodore was in liquidation, a limited batch of “informal”/“pirate copies” (I have seen it been called both) of the OS was distributed and sold (Village Tronic) which I believe at least had a cardboard box with the text “Amiga OS” printed on it. And when Escom/Amiga Technologies picked up the Amiga IP and produced new batches of the A1200 and the A4000T computers they made “Amiga OS 3.1” the new standard OS version, and also released official upgrade packs for older Amigas. I suppose going for the “Amiga OS” naming scheme was originally a pedagogical move to try to mentally lift the Operating System part of the Amiga equation away from the hardware, to formalize it as a concept of its own (Kickstart and Workbench together) when evaluating various paths to a future (not all of them involved “custom HW”, hence a shifted focus to the OS part). And of course it was also essential to formalize, structure and slice up all kinds of Intellectual Property that could have any value, something that got increasingly important over the years as “Amiga” became prey for a growing number of “IP vultures” standing in line; complex yet obsolete custom HW was not very interesting IP-wise, but trademarks was, and so could the Operating System be.

    A long time has now passed, but the “Amiga OS 3.1” API is the common denominator of all the various OS initiatives that followed since then, be them 68k “upgrades” like “OS 3.5/3.9” put together by some third party publisher by bundling some of the many SW packages that Amigans commonly used to modernize their computers, or be them new OS initiatives written from scratch like AROS and MorphOS, or the OS4 “based on the real sources” of course. ;-)

    And regarding the naming; as far as I recall it was quite common that people continued calling the OS “Workbench” even a long time after the “Amiga OS” name was introduced, the “Workbench” was heavily established in people’s minds at the time and the new name took some time to gain full impact! Today things have shifted to the other side though, and it’s quite common that people say things like “Amiga OS 1.3” (or simply OS 1.3) instead of Workbench 1.3. In the same mindset, it’s common to look at “OS4” not as a "NG"/PPC fork but as a later version of “Amiga OS” since it has a higher version number (and based on 3.1 IP) and because “Amiga OS 3.1” is something dead, something of the past.

    Or was, at least. Because then Cloanto walks in through the door! :-)

    In November 2014 they re-release the “Workbench” as a real, alive and available product, and suddenly there are no longer only three “Amiga OS 3.1”-alike Operating Systems, but four! The *actual* Workbench returned, and not as a package for emulation, but in the shape of real disks made for real Amiga computers!


    (Click the image for big picture)

    And not only did they re-release the old Commodore WB 3.1 package straight off, they also upgraded it slightly! They say the release is “trying to be as true to the original as possible without compromising functionality”, and while this is probably true, the new Workbench package also implements the following changes and new features:

    • * Updated C/Version command (Y2K patch)

    • * Addition of Libs/workbench.library (for A-4000T 3.1 ROMs and 3.X ROMs)

    • * Updated S/Startup-Sequence (conditional SetPatch, for 3.X ROMs)

    • * Increased MultiView stack to 32768

    • * Installer script improvements

    • * Updated Installer (43.3 or 44.10, depending on CPU) and FastFileSystem 45.9 (to support larger disks)

    • * Installer itself is now part of the system installation (inside the Utilities directory)


    These updates/additions are not totally insignificant IMHO, especially not so if you also add a “3.X” ROM file (supported but not included) which together with the included updates will add run-time support for disks larger than 4 GB! This is not minor at all IMHO! Anyway, it’s not a straight-off re-release of Workbench 3.1, it’s updated, hence its version number should (IMHO) differ from the original, and this is why I called it “3.2” in the picture above (which again is not official, but perhaps should be?).

    Anyway, some interesting things about this:

    1. 1) Cloanto now *owns* the Amiga Operating System (not a license to use, but full ownership!), everything that Commodore/Amiga owned and developed up to (and including) version 3.1.

    2. 2) “The combination of the multiple agreements makes Cloanto the rights holder of not just any Amiga related products and media, but also the system software, documentation, Commodore-owned publications, videos and advertisements for Commodore's various product lines.” So also developer documentation like the RKRM books, etc.

    3. 3) That a new version of the Amiga Operating System “Workbench 3.1” has been released and is for sale! A stand-alone release of the OS, completely independent of any “emulation packages”.

    4. 4) Even the post-Commodore 3.1 updates that Olaf Barthel and Heinz Wrobel developed (and released on Amiga’s website during the latter half of the nineties) are available from Cloanto’s Website.

    5. 5) The official name of this OS was, and is de-facto now again (per the latest Nov 2014 release), Workbench (*NOT* “Amiga OS”). This trademark is fully owned by Cloanto, the owners of the OS. As I tried to illustrate in the picture above, the current “new” Workbench 3.1 release (available to buy now in 2015) is a direct descendant product of the Workbench 1.0 of 1985. Workbench is 30 years old this year and “still” available as a product to buy!

    6. 6) Beyond the original Workbench releases that were originally supplied with various Amiga’s from Commodore, Cloanto’s great emulation package “Amiga Forever” also comes with a pre-installed state of the art version 45.3 Workbench system. In other words, it’s de-facto “Amiga OS 3.9” (but also here they carefully avoid the name “Amiga OS”, and they call it “Workbench 3.X” instead), and not only does this come with the latest version 44/45 files, it also has some later ROM and operating system patches and files, as well as some other Cloanto IP bundled. In other words, a product further improved!

    7. 7) I suppose many people sees the “x” in the version number “3.X” as some kind of replaceable variable (like in equations) that could mean “anything”. But given the fact that they use a *capital* letter also brings your thoughts to the roman number “10”. In other words: Workbench 3.10! :-o Which makes sense, since it de-facto builds on 3.9 in all essential aspects, and then offers *more* on top of that!

    8. 8) So far, this “Workbench 3.10” is only distributed with the Amiga Forever emulation package. Maybe a stand-alone release has just not yet happened but is planned to come in the future? Maybe they can’t do it because of license restrictions of some of the “3.5/3.9” components (like only having a license to distribute them with the Amiga Forever emulation package but not as a stand-alone OS release). But the new Workbench “3.2” disks that are now for sale, contains everything you need (new FastFileSystem, etc, etc) to boot up and prepare/set up your Real Amiga with bigger HDD support and making it usable with the 3.10 ROM and prepare the ground so to say before you manually transfer the rest from the Amiga Forever package to your Real Amiga, in order to have a full blown Workbench “3.10” system running on your Amiga! ;-)


    Are there any other implications of this?

    Well, Cloanto’s legal rights to all aspects of the great “Amiga Forever” package are secured and undisputable. All relevant Intellectual Property is gathered under the same roof. Safe. Peace. Tranquility. And this at a company that isn’t just “a file in cabinet that’s in coma” like some other Amiga related companies are, but has been quite active and still is.

    It opens up for a whole new set of business opportunities for Cloanto in licensing old vintage games and releasing complete gaming emulation packages for all kinds of platforms. Recently someone asked if a site like this is legal. Probably not, but Cloanto can actually do this legally, and they are probably the only one who can! Virtually no work, potentially quite a bit of money!

    And it potentially opens up for further Workbench development post Workbench 3.X. Like Workbench 3.XI perhaps? ;-)

    Who knows, maybe we will even see some official, physical “3.10” ROM chips for real Amigas, to go with the new Workbench? :-)

    It could also mean (if Cloanto agrees to this) that any past, present or potential future Retro HW/HW Emulation projects (like Jens Schönfeld’s “Clone A”, the MiniMig, NatAmi, etc, etc) can have a legal Workbench distribution to go with them. “Amiga in a Joystick” anyone? It could also mean that any new/improved features (like “Super AGA” or whatever) in potential new hobby machines like the NatAmi could have real support from a bundled Workbench that’s both complete and perfectly legal. In other words, new WB versions with new native features for new HW! ;-)

    I’m actually a little surprised that nobody really picked up on this Amiga-News.de article about Cloanto is now owning the OS (and has been for a while), that there were no big discussion about it!

    In my eyes this is huge for anyone interested in Real Amigas, for retro, for emulation, and potentially for new FPGA based “Amiga” machines that could possibly introduce new custom chipsets with new features. Or for anyone that has been dreaming about further development of Workbench for Amiga!

    Workbench for the Future?

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »27.02.15 - 00:45
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    And another thing is of course the fact that Hyperion has been declared bankrupt. So while Amigans today de-facto have four OS’s to choose from (depending on purpose, platform and preference), a close future can very well look like this:


    (Click on image for bigger picture)

    Workbench, MorphOS, AROS.

    No OS4.

    Hyperion has a license from Amiga Inc to *use* some of the Amiga IP; they can modify OS 3.1 (i.e. develop OS4 based on it) and distribute it, and for its marketing they can use the trade marks “AmigaOS” and “AmigaOne”, as well as a non-exclusive right to use the Boing Ball. They can not transfer these rights to anyone else without Amiga Inc’s consent (which they will not have). Without Hyperion, the OS4 is dead.

    Hyperion don’t really own anything themselves. Especially they don’t own OS 3.1. And it’s important to understand that the OS3.1 IP (or perhaps rather “Workbench 3.1” ;-)) is woven tightly in the OS4 cloth and legally it can never ever be separated from it. OS4 can not be without OS3.1, and OS 3.1 isn’t Hyperion’s property. Allegedly (according to Gutjahr), Hyperion doesn’t even own “the modifications” to OS 3.1 (meaning: the things that makes it OS4 instead of OS3.1), but the individual developers do. At least the important parts.

    So there is nothing they (the lawyers handling the liquidation if it comes to that) can sell, because there are no solid assets, at least not when it comes to Amiga OS and other other Amiga IP. I actually believe Gutjahr over Hermans any day about this; Hermans has proven over the last 1.5 decade to be a pathological liar, while Gutjahr is well connected, probably has good sources for his information, and is known to be rather fair and balanced. But even if Hyperion would have owned the “OS4” additions, they couldn’t sell them anyway, because they are contaminated by the OS 3.1 IP which they don’t own and has no right to sell.

    And the OS4 developers can’t release their OS4 code on their own for the same reason (like perhaps trying to put together their own “OS4” for themselves, or for a new employer, or whatever), the code is legally contaminated! In fact, also the developers are contaminated by OS 3.1! Everyone who has ever worked on OS4 and seen OS4’s sources has also seen the OS3.1 sources, which forever disqualify them from working even on anything related, like AROS or MorphOS, since this would contaminate these projects as well!

    The key here is Cloanto, the owner of the OS! :-)

    Cloanto has obviously had an ambition to compile every important aspect of Amiga history in their Amiga Forever package. All Workbench versions, all Amiga versions, some games, some apps, videos and other historical information. Even AmigaSYS, AmiKit and AROS is available from the Amiga Forever launch application. PowerPC is a dead platform for Desktop, OS4 is a PowerPC only OS and as such it’s a dead-end, and soon it may be dead in the true meaning of the word if Hyperion doesn’t manage to survive.

    But who knows, maybe Cloanto would be interested in collecting OS4 into its Amiga Forever package? It’s undeniably a part of the post-“Real Amiga” history after all, right? And now I have heard that UAE with PPC emulation is becoming decent and I think I have seen reports from people running OS4 on a “PowerUP” enabled emulated Amiga. So for the matter of “completeness”, maybe a *Version 7* of Amiga Forever will contain this? Emulated “PowerUP Amiga” HW together with OS4 (or most of it at least)? “Contaminated 3.1 IP” is not an issue for Cloanto, since they are the owners! ;-) They “only” need a license from the respective developers. Remember that they did something similar like this when including the 3.5/3.9 files into Amiga Forever; there were legal disputes to the left and right, and AFAIK the 3.9 had even been officially revoked. But Cloanto managed to map the Copyright/Ownership down to a file-by-file basis, and managed to secure a license for them all, sometimes even double licenses from two separate parties for the same files, just to be 100% safe (link).

    Amiga Forever 7 with “Workbench 4” on emulated PPC Amigas in the future? :-)

    And perhaps if the OS4 devs assume an attitude similar to the MorphOS devs (“we look at this as a hobby project now, we don’t work for a salary but have our day-time jobs elsewhere, we are not really doing this for the money at all but for fun and perhaps some merits in our CV”), then maybe some updates for existing OS4 PowerPC machines will see the day of light? Like we just saw with the new Workbench 3.1 (and 3.X) on Amigas? Because IMHO it’s not actually possible to properly fund (as in paying out full time salaries to developers) for something like OS4; an obscure, feature crippled, PPC only OS that has no real apps and no real-world use or purpose whatsoever in 2015. It’s a hobby. And as it turned out, it’s even a *retro* hobby. And as such, it could perhaps continue, with the mercy of Cloanto and a changed attitude among enough (at least the important) OS4 developers?

    Stand-alone “Workbench 4” release for PPC machines in the future?

    Perhaps not very likely, but who knows...? ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »27.02.15 - 01:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1218 from 2003/6/17
    If I owned Amiga Workbench/OS rights, I'd drop it into open source and be done with it. Let it grow out in the real world, or die..whichever. Let the masses determine that.

    Nice read btw.
  • »27.02.15 - 02:33
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    In_Correct
    Posts: 245 from 2012/10/14
    From: DFW, TX, USA
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    If I owned Amiga Workbench/OS rights, I'd drop it into open source and be done with it. Let it grow out in the real world, or die..whichever. Let the masses determine that.

    Nice read btw.


    +1
    :-) I Support Quark Microkernel. :-D
  • »27.02.15 - 06:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12109 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > they pointed out that historically [...], nobody really spoke about “Amiga OS”.
    > And when I think of it, it strikes me that this is actually true!

    Publications from 1991/1992 talking about "Amiga OS":

    http://archive.org/search.php?query=amigaworld%20tech%20journal

    > Escom/Amiga International picked up the Amiga IP

    Under Escom it was Amiga Technologies, while Amiga International was the German Gateway (and later Amino/AIW) subsidiary.

    > In November 2014 they re-release the “Workbench”

    This was in October actually:

    http://www.amigaforever.com/news-events/classic-support-3-1/

    > potential new hobby machines like the NatAmi

    ;-)
  • »27.02.15 - 12:22
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12109 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > AFAIK the 3.9 had even been officially revoked.

    Has it?
  • »27.02.15 - 12:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    They where not able to open source it before due to patents. But AFAIK they have all now expired since one or two years (which might be why Cloanto bought them then: they don't need to pay with every Workbench sold anymore).

    Though, I doubt Cloanto wants to open source it.
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  • »27.02.15 - 13:13
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    Kronos
    Posts: 2262 from 2003/2/24
    I doubt Cloante even has all the sources.

    I even more doubt Cloanto has the resources or plans to do any further development beyond basic bugfixes.
  • »27.02.15 - 13:34
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Interesting read (now I've read it all). I like your graph but it's a little incosistent. You include early betas in NG OS but not Workbench. Work on the MorphOS kernel started in 1998 (?) and AROS started in 1995 (discussions started in 1993). Workbench started in 1982. So maybe a striped area for beta versions (including AROS that is still beta)? First "non beta" of MorphOS came in December 2002 and AmigaOS 4.0 in december 2006.
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  • »27.02.15 - 14:58
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12109 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > They where not able to open source it before due to patents.

    I doubt the Amiga patents had anything to do with the sources not being opened.
  • »27.02.15 - 16:55
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Of course not. But with those patents still active it would be outright impossible. Unless you just open source parts of the code.
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  • »27.02.15 - 17:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    Under Escom it was Amiga Technologies, while Amiga International was the German Gateway (and later Amino/AIW) subsidiary.


    Of course, stupid and embarrassing mistake of me! Corrected!


    Quote:

    > AFAIK the 3.9 had even been officially revoked.

    Has it?


    At least according to the amiga-news.de article (and I recall this info from long ago as well). This in a legal/license perspective (between Amiga Inc and Haage&Partner), not meaning the product was withdrawn from stores.


    Quote:

    > In November 2014 they re-release the “Workbench”

    This was in October actually:

    http://www.amigaforever.com/news-events/classic-support-3-1/


    Thanks, I looked at the date it was published on some Amiga news sites, and this was 3rd Nov 2014. It has now been corrected:


    (Click on image for bigger picture)


    BTW, Thank you for taking the time and effort to proof read my text, Andreas! :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »27.02.15 - 21:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    I doubt Cloante even has all the sources.


    Most certainly they don't. They have the binaries though, and the ownership/copyright.


    Quote:

    I even more doubt Cloanto has the resources or plans to do any further development beyond basic bugfixes.


    Same here, they are obviously not in the OS development business. But it's interesting that they now own the OS entirely. And when it comes to "Workbench 3.X" I was (besides a complete new release for old Amigas) mostly thinking of existing and potential future FPGA based machines, that can now be bundled with an official Workbench, that can even be adapted/improved for any enhancements such machines may have (support written by the *HW developers* obviously). Previously the chances for this happening with Amiga Inc/Hyperion was zero. AFAIK this was the main reason to why Jens Schönfeld dropped the "Clone A" (which was practically finished in development IIRC) back in the days. Of course it would take some policy from Cloanto to allow things like this, and perhaps they are only interested in emulation? Another thing that wouldn't be too far off, would perhaps be to produce physical 3.X ROM's for old Amigas. An updated ROM has been wanted for almost two decades now. And maybe they would allow a fork with improvements written by community members, like AROS developers? Existing old 68k binaries as a base, replacements/improvements here and there as time goes by?

    When it comes to a potential "Workbench 4" I was merely speculating in a potential future in some form for OS4 if Hyperion will be liquidated. In this case, Cloanto owns the essential 3.1 IP, and the OS4 stuff comes in this case from the individual developers (who Cloanto makes a deal with) who wants OS4 to continue to exist in some form and maybe even be further developed. They have the sources (including Olaf Barthel's 3.1 sources that has been used in OS4), and Cloanto has the rights to 3.1...

    A lot of "maybes" there of course, hehe...

    ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »27.02.15 - 22:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2054 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf schrieb:
    > they pointed out that historically [...], nobody really spoke about “Amiga OS”.
    > And when I think of it, it strikes me that this is actually true!

    Publications from 1991/1992 talking about "Amiga OS":




    I remember the term OS2 from the kick/workbench 2.0 release (1990). The OS was indeed usually referred as Workbench/Kichstart 2.0, but there was for example this OS2 ready (or compatible?) label (a black check with green(?) writing). It was necessary since the jump from 1.x to 2.x was rather massive. Also some literature referred to Amiga OS 2.0.
    I also remember my own confusion with OS/2 and OS2.
    --
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  • »27.02.15 - 22:25
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Interesting read (now I've read it all).


    Thanks! :-)

    Quote:

    I like your graph but it's a little incosistent. You include early betas in NG OS but not Workbench. Work on the MorphOS kernel started in 1998 (?) and AROS started in 1995 (discussions started in 1993). Workbench started in 1982. So maybe a striped area for beta versions (including AROS that is still beta)? First "non beta" of MorphOS came in December 2002 and AmigaOS 4.0 in december 2006.


    It's totally consistent in that it focus on the first public releases, no matter what that may have been...

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »27.02.15 - 22:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:

    I also remember my own confusion with OS/2 and OS2.


    :lol:

    So you became a happy OS/2 owner?

    ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »27.02.15 - 22:34
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @takemehomegrandma

    Well, then it's OK I guess :-) How about at least a line where the first non beta versions of MOS and ASO4 was released? Otherwise poeple might get the wrong idea.
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  • »27.02.15 - 23:29
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    @takemehomegrandma

    Well, then it's OK I guess :-) How about at least a line where the first non beta versions of MOS and ASO4 was released? Otherwise poeple might get the wrong idea.


    And what exactly is a non-beta in these cases, and when? MorphOS v1.0? Only by its version number in its name, but certainly not from a user experience IMHO. So while some people (like you did) would say 1.0, some would perhaps say 1.2 but even more would say 1.3 (IMHO this is where things got stable and useful, my vote goes here), some would perhaps even say 1.4? And not strictly beta wise, but feature wise and maturity wise you could argue that MorphOS 2.0 is really what the 1.0 should have been, etc, etc. And OS4? They had their "pre-release" scheme going on for a very long time, and while those releases definitely was beta, they were also (mostly?) a way for Hyperion to foul-play Amiga Inc (to be able to say that 4.0 hadn't yet been released, probably while hoping for an A Inc bankruptcy in the mean time). My vote for the first non-beta level of OS4 is "4.1.1", but others may disagree (which is my point). But then again, 4.1.3 (the first release after ssolie took over after the Frieden brothers) was catastrophic and was probably not tested at all by any betatester. This is how the evolution of OS4 has been from the beginning IMHO, stability and overall quality and "beta level" varied a great deal over releases, no matter where they came in the chronological order. And just like with MorphOS, when talking about features and overall maturity level, if you had asked people back in 2000 what they expected out of AmigaOS 4.0, their answers would probably match the 4.1.7 "Final Edition" more than any other previous release. And then we have AROS, with it's hosted/native/virtual machine versions, various ISA targets, various "distros", builds with some silly smp, 64-bit, etc. When was/wasn't AROS beta?

    You said that talks about AROS (Amiga Replacement OS) began in 1993. I think there were talks about both MorphOS and Hyperions OS4 prior to any release as well, as there are often talks about most things in development. But not everything talked about ever gets released. Most doesn't. Actually releasing something to the public is IMHO an important milestone to a project, it's what separates vapor from the tangible. When it's not just talk anymore. There has been so much vapor in the Amiga history. So no matter if it takes a couple of "boing bags" before reaching a "Final Edition", the first public release is an important statement, definitely worth highlighting IMHO. And there is nothing individually subjective about this, the first public release is undeniably the first chance the public has to actually play with the thing, hands on!

    :-)

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma 02.03.2015 - 14:22 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »02.03.15 - 12:57
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >When was/wasn't AROS beta?

    was/wasn't/isn't?

    [ Edited by Jim 02.03.2015 - 09:05 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.03.15 - 14:04
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Features are nice but not a part of the core OS. I thibk you should count a non beta as when all planned core features have been added and it's expected to work for the end user. I remember the AOS4 pre-releases, and people where told that it wasn't completely stable. But if they where called "pre-releases" mainly because of politics, then we have a termenology problem.

    First non beta should be core OS feature complete and expected to work.

    As of AROS, I mentioned 1993 because talks started back then, but the first line of code was written and released in 1995. I meant it as an argument for AROS development started in 1995, and not 1993.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »02.03.15 - 14:05
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12109 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > They had their "pre-release" scheme going on for a very long time

    They called them "developer pre-releases" even :-)

    > the 4.1.7 "Final Edition"

    4.1.8 :-)

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39267&forum=16&start=160#742878
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9932&start=6
  • »02.03.15 - 17:28
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 524 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    (First, this is not directly a MorphOS related post, I actually meant to post this at Amiga.org, but it seems eliyahu has banned me for no apparent reason, so I'll post it here instead (in the "General Discussion" forum))



    It could also mean (if Cloanto agrees to this) that any past, present or potential future Retro HW/HW Emulation projects (like Jens Schönfeld’s “Clone A”, the MiniMig, NatAmi, etc, etc) can have a legal Workbench distribution to go with them. “Amiga in a Joystick” anyone? It could also mean that any new/improved features (like “Super AGA” or whatever) in potential new hobby machines like the NatAmi could have real support from a bundled Workbench that’s both complete and perfectly legal. In other words, new WB versions with new native features for new HW! ;-)

    I’m actually a little surprised that nobody really picked up on this Amiga-News.de article about Cloanto is now owning the OS (and has been for a while), that there were no big discussion about it!

    In my eyes this is huge for anyone interested in Real Amigas, for retro, for emulation, and potentially for new FPGA based “Amiga” machines that could possibly introduce new custom chipsets with new features. Or for anyone that has been dreaming about further development of Workbench for Amiga!

    Workbench for the Future?

    :-)


    Well, while I cant object to the analysis of AmigaOS/Workbench branding,few reminders are:
    a) WORKBENCH AS TRADEMARK NAME: Workbench was and is a GUI name, as in LoadWB command. Even it wasn`t called AmigaOS back in CBM days, AmigaOS kind of associate whole package, so I don`t see it "that wrong". Surely, I agree Workbench name is copyrighted to Cloanto and could be (re)used if not being what Workbench is in AmigaOS 4.x (meaning: could be used for some other OS package). What and who deserves such title is other topic :-) At the time C=USA tried to use it for their later CommodoreOS I was strongly against it, because it was just repacked Linux Mint (while I wouldn`t object if they used very nice Linux Mint as it was, I was just against hijacking the name,pretending to be something they develop).

    b)LEGAL EMULATION THING

    Hereby, I am also saying licensing legal KS/WB packs for emulation packages was something Cloanto/Hyperion/AmigaInc could make a revenue earlier for smaller fee (meaning not just Amiga Forever but AmiKit, FSUAE, WinUAE, EUAE as complete packages). They would do better and we would have easier packages and less piracy.

    It came in the end for massive phones market, as AmigaForever Essentials Android for 0.99$, but as 2013.
    http://www.retrothing.com/2013/05/amiga-forever-on-android.html

    Note: It also ends with OS 3.1, but for gaming/emulation purposes, just enough


    c) SHOULD WE BE SO CRUEL ON QUICK AND DIRTY CD ROM BASED 68k WORKBENCH/AMIGAOS PACKS THAT EXTENDED 68k ERA: AmigaOS 3.5,3.9 aren`t just "addon packs" as some of the core OS libraries were updated or bugfixed (when we count in BoingBall packs). Its essential OS update bigger then e.g. OS 3.0-3.1 update + what has become a 3rd party community standard meanwhile (Which was good). WB nostalgia includes all the historical info, needs just an update on OS 4.1 development after update 3 http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/ To me it wasn`t just "CD filler" but saved a lot of patching time and I was happy to pay for it.

    Sadly, since OS 4.x and AROS progress wasn`t based on lost in limbo OS 3.9, some things had to be worked again, and some aren`t yet fully implemented.
    Nice comparison from AROS 68k perspective vs OS 3.5 is here http://www.aros-platform.de/html/aros_comparation.html

    d) 68k PROGRESS FOR FPGA/EMULATION PURPOSES:While there was some potential in 68k development, last I have seen were these noble pages + brave Aminet 68k developers

    Easy patching OS 3.1
    http://lilliput.amiga-projects.net/BetterWB.htm

    Patching KS
    http://lilliput.amiga-projects.net/ROM_modules.htm

    Updates/bugfixes to OS 3.9
    http://lilliput.amiga-projects.net/bbag4.htm
    http://lilliput.amiga-projects.net/TechDetails.htm

    Personally, I like either only standalone updated product like AmiKit, or steady development of AROS 68k and its Kickstart replacement file. Even I find Wanderer ... errr ... ugliest :-) I see and understand its a far ahead of plain OS 3.1 (and all those other patches) as well as I respect AROS itself has in bits and pieces helped both MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 development :-)

    So I nominate brave AROS Vision distro as "68k for the future"
    as most consistent and upated 68k distro for non emulation purposes (as clearly stated on their website)
    http://www.natami-news.de/

    Sadly, some games and apps still don`t work with KS repla
    http://www.natami-news.de/html/compatibility.html
    ------------------------------------------
    iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
    Lame PC with AmiKit XE
    YT channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
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  • »03.03.15 - 14:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12109 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Workbench name is copyrighted to Cloanto

    Trademarked, not copyrighted.

    > BoingBall packs

    BoingBags ;-)

    > (as clearly stated on their website) http://www.natami-news.de/

    ...or http://www.aros-platform.de :-)
  • »03.03.15 - 16:48
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Features are nice but not a part of the core OS. I thibk you should count a non beta as when all planned core features have been added and it's expected to work for the end user. I remember the AOS4 pre-releases, and people where told that it wasn't completely stable. But if they where called "pre-releases" mainly because of politics, then we have a termenology problem.

    First non beta should be core OS feature complete and expected to work.

    As of AROS, I mentioned 1993 because talks started back then, but the first line of code was written and released in 1995. I meant it as an argument for AROS development started in 1995, and not 1993.


    Unknown goals, moving targets, unknown road maps, and subjective opinions about acceptable quality for end-user releases still makes this impossible IMHO. Multiplied by 3. Or 4?

    This picture however shows selective milestones in evolution of the operating system for Amiga as well as its various forks or alternatives, focusing on when things moved from "just talk" to "something for the public to play with" (in other words: the divide of vapor and products, the first and one of the most important mile stones in any of those projects from a historical perspective). The picture is an update from an old picture (which had several errors) that I made as a response to this picture from the Amiga OS Wikipedia page (which is terribly wrong in so many ways, and also outdated!).

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.03.15 - 14:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > the 4.1.7 "Final Edition"

    4.1.8 :-)

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39267&forum=16&start=160#742878
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9932&start=6


    OMG, they released a version for themselves internally?! :-o :lol:
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.03.15 - 14:42
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