PPC Laptop, something for MorphOS?
  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    WB_Coder
    Posts: 66 from 2014/5/1
    If A-Eon is not involved and supporting this PPC laptop, then I have no clue on what they are thinking. Unless they cannot extend themselves any further, until the X5000 is finished and up for sale. A e6500 core PPC laptop makes so much more sense for them to develop and sell than another $3,000 PPC desktop, and I am sure that AmigaOS4.x users are desperate to have any kind of laptop to run their OS of choice on. Look at how many of them were excited about the mythical PPC laptop that Hyperion was supposedly going to produce and sell that only had performance similar to a SAM440, or Efika 5200b.

    But then it has already been proven that many AmigaOS4.x users will buy just about anything to run AmigaOS4.x on, no matter the performance or the price.
    WB_Coder = Wanna Be Coder
  • »02.06.15 - 11:13
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 361 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    WB_Coder wrote:
    If A-Eon is not involved and supporting this PPC laptop, then I have no clue on what they are thinking. Unless they cannot extend themselves any further, until the X5000 is finished and up for sale. A e6500 core PPC laptop makes so much more sense for them to develop and sell than another $3,000 PPC desktop, and I am sure that AmigaOS4.x users are desperate to have any kind of laptop to run their OS of choice on. Look at how many of them were excited about the mythical PPC laptop that Hyperion was supposedly going to produce and sell that only had performance similar to a SAM440, or Efika 5200b.

    But then it has already been proven that many AmigaOS4.x users will buy just about anything to run AmigaOS4.x on, no matter the performance or the price.


    AEON is not involved, depending on graphic choice, laptop might even compete to X5000.

    Surely, OS4 crowd needs a laptop badly, but MorphOS crowd could benefit the newer laptop too.
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »03.06.15 - 15:04
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    WB_Coder
    Posts: 66 from 2014/5/1
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    AEON is not involved, depending on graphic choice, laptop might even compete to X5000.

    Surely, OS4 crowd needs a laptop badly, but MorphOS crowd could benefit the newer laptop too.




    How would you know if A-Eon is involved or backing that laptop project?

    After all your threats against Hyperion and A-Eon and AmigaKit when you purchased your X1000, I am sure that none of them are speaking to you regarding what they are, or aren't doing or supporting.
    WB_Coder = Wanna Be Coder
  • »04.06.15 - 06:59
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1723 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    I think whats speaks against A-Eon being involved is that they claimed their new partner have lowered the price. Considering A-Eon and the PPC laptop uses different CPU:s I doubt that they have chipped in together for a batch to lower the price.

    It sounds rather like Freescale giving them a discount. I bet they do this as a good will thing in order to get some buzz.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »04.06.15 - 11:56
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    WB_Coder
    Posts: 66 from 2014/5/1
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    I think whats speaks against A-Eon being involved is that they claimed their new partner have lowered the price. Considering A-Eon and the PPC laptop uses different CPU:s I doubt that they have chipped in together for a batch to lower the price.

    It sounds rather like Freescale giving them a discount. I bet they do this as a good will thing in order to get some buzz.


    If it was Freescale, there would be no reason not to announce it, specially if you say they do it for good will reasons.

    A-Eon would have good reasons to keep their involvement secret until the X5000 is finished and ready for public sales. Then they could announce that their next project is to port AmigaOS4.x to this new PPC Open Source laptop project.

    I am confused why A-Eon didn't just choose to use a standard PPC development board for about half the cost of creating a new PPC motherboard. I think there were 1 or 2 available, that should have suited their needs (but of course they would not have the Xena chip, or Xorro interface).
    WB_Coder = Wanna Be Coder
  • »05.06.15 - 04:00
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4058 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    PPC development boards have features producton boards do not need and often their layout is not ideal.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »05.06.15 - 14:19
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 361 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    WB_Coder wrote:
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    AEON is not involved, depending on graphic choice, laptop might even compete to X5000.

    Surely, OS4 crowd needs a laptop badly, but MorphOS crowd could benefit the newer laptop too.




    How would you know if A-Eon is involved or backing that laptop project?

    After all your threats against Hyperion and A-Eon and AmigaKit when you purchased your X1000, I am sure that none of them are speaking to you regarding what they are, or aren't doing or supporting.




    In general, they are not really giving any plans to anyone.
    Laptop project has no ties to AEON / AmigaKit / Hyperion, its created as Linux project. No OS4 support is mentioned anyplace, and even at laptop forum its highly unlikely until AEON/Hyperion decide to do so (and since it can be competative product to SAM460 / X5000 ...)

    And yes, I am still unsatisfied with way AmigaKit handle customer demands as well as the way X1000 is not supported by OS4.
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »05.06.15 - 21:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9103 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > Not there yet: [...]
    > http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2015/05/powerpc-notebook-new-specifications-and-development-status/

    Still a long way to go:

    "After some unsuccessful contacts between the notebook manufacturer and a potential financing partner, it seems that the best option to fund the project is to start a crowdfunding campaign. [...] the estimated date to produce the notebook will be the end of 2016. Before that, at least 5 prototypes will be delivered to the community for software adaptation and beta testing. [...] the CPU will be based on the e6500 core that provides ALTIVEC technology and PowerIsa 2.07. The GPU will be most probably AMD/ATI based, making use of a mxm connector. Currently some of our developers are working with a Freescale T2080RDB development board donated by Freescale. The board is very useful in order to test u-boot, PCIe video card output and try to boot Debian."
    http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2015/10/towards-crowdfunding-campaign/
  • »05.11.15 - 17:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9103 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    https://twitter.com/ronaldgadget/status/673809617684668416
    http://www.research.ibm.com/labs/zurich/microserver/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOME_Microserver
    http://amigaworld.net/userinfo.php?uid=14284
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39203&forum=33

    Not sure whether the discussion mention in the tweet is related to the project discussed in this thread, though.
  • »09.12.15 - 00:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2402 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Update:

    > Not there yet: [...]
    > http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2015/05/powerpc-notebook-new-specifications-and-development-status/

    Still a long way to go:

    "After some unsuccessful contacts between the notebook manufacturer and a potential financing partner, it seems that the best option to fund the project is to start a crowdfunding campaign. [...] the estimated date to produce the notebook will be the end of 2016. Before that, at least 5 prototypes will be delivered to the community for software adaptation and beta testing. [...] the CPU will be based on the e6500 core that provides ALTIVEC technology and PowerIsa 2.07. The GPU will be most probably AMD/ATI based, making use of a mxm connector. Currently some of our developers are working with a Freescale T2080RDB development board donated by Freescale. The board is very useful in order to test u-boot, PCIe video card output and try to boot Debian."
    http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2015/10/towards-crowdfunding-campaign/


    Jim and others that are discussing a community designed and funded alternative to the Tabor system from A-Eon/ACube, should instead work with the people trying to make this PPC laptop, or if that is not possible, do their own T2080 based laptop for MorphOS, and possibly AmigaOS4.x if Hyperion would support it (and I am sure they would want to have a PPC laptop to run AmigaOS4.1FE on).

    I know it would be a lot more work, and more expensive to produce, but perhaps they can design a T2080 motherboard which initially is used for a small form factor desktop system, then adapt it for laptop use afterwards with additional work, which would double or triple the number of motherboard sales.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »09.12.15 - 08:23
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4058 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    The only problem I have with that is the added cost and complexity.
    The original proposal was to compete with an e500v2 based board with a T10XX based board.
    Then the T2081 got dragged into it because it has some pin compatibility.
    And after that, the T2080 was mentioned because it is superior to the T2081.

    With a laptop, we have to design a shell, the board has to have a GPU, other parts like batteries and memory have to be sourced.

    At each step of this discussion, costs go up, until at this level they require a huge investment.
    With a simple upgrade to my current version of Orcad, I could have started something like what we were originally talking about.
    Bill might be able to go further (the T2080 board possibly? who knows?).

    But where the heck do we get the resources for a laptop?

    At the beginning, I just wanted to discuss building about 50 T1042 based mini itx motherboards.
    The T2080/T2081 proposals appeal to me, but they add significant cost.

    This...sounds a little too 'Natami' to me.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.12.15 - 14:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9103 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> "[...]The GPU will be [...] making use of a mxm connector.[...]"

    >> [...]

    > With a laptop, [...] the board has to have a GPU

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module
  • »10.12.15 - 15:25
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 875 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> "[...]The GPU will be [...] making use of a mxm connector.[...]"

    >> [...]

    > With a laptop, [...] the board has to have a GPU

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module


    "Only corporate clients are granted access to the standard."

    Might be a problem for a community designed laptop mobo.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »10.12.15 - 15:59
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4058 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> "[...]The GPU will be [...] making use of a mxm connector.[...]"

    >> [...]

    > With a laptop, [...] the board has to have a GPU

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module


    "Only corporate clients are granted access to the standard."

    Might be a problem for a community designed laptop mobo.


    There are plethora of standards for this. The format isn't as important as the fact that it has to be designed in and paid for.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.12.15 - 17:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2402 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    The only problem I have with that is the added cost and complexity.
    The original proposal was to compete with an e500v2 based board with a T10XX based board.
    Then the T2081 got dragged into it because it has some pin compatibility.
    And after that, the T2080 was mentioned because it is superior to the T2081.

    With a laptop, we have to design a shell, the board has to have a GPU, other parts like batteries and memory have to be sourced.

    At each step of this discussion, costs go up, until at this level they require a huge investment.
    With a simple upgrade to my current version of Orcad, I could have started something like what we were originally talking about.
    Bill might be able to go further (the T2080 board possibly? who knows?).

    But where the heck do we get the resources for a laptop?

    At the beginning, I just wanted to discuss building about 50 T1042 based mini itx motherboards.
    The T2080/T2081 proposals appeal to me, but they add significant cost.

    This...sounds a little too 'Natami' to me.


    Hence my suggestion that you work with the already established group working toward a PPC laptop. It would spread around the work load, as well as the financial risk, if more people are involved. Unfortunately, it also makes everything more complex and difficult to coordinate, but I think the results would be worth the extra effort.

    If your motherboard was kept small enough, and designed with the possibility of also being used for a future laptop with the proper expansion ports and capabilities, it would serve for both projects, and possibly increase sales far beyond what is otherwise possible with only MorphOS users as the target market.

    It would be worth the effort of at least talking with the people working on the PPC laptop project, would it not?

    Of course, it is all probably just speculation and wishful thinking, and nothing real will come of these discussions anyway, but if there is real work done toward making it a reality, why not aim for something more people will want (a portable laptop), if there is already a group trying to make such a project, which you can join?
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »11.12.15 - 00:13
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9103 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > Still a long way to go: [...]
    > http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2015/10/towards-crowdfunding-campaign/

    "Regarding the initial funding, we recalculated the amount to raise, placing it at 55000 €. The increase is due to the expenses that we expect to certify the product. The objective is still to collect this sum before September 2016. So the crowdfunding will cover the design( that we will publish with an Open Hardware license ), the production of five prototypes and the certification process."
    http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2016/04/which-software-do-you-want-for-the-gnulinux-powerpc-notebook/
  • »12.04.16 - 10:28
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 853 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    It is worth pointing out that all financial contributions are non-refundable.

    As per their stated rules, if the campaign fails to raise the desired amount, the organisers are free to keep all collected funds and use them as they see fit.
  • »24.06.17 - 03:53
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4058 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    It is worth pointing out that all financial contributions are non-refundable.

    As per their stated rules, if the campaign fails to raise the desired amount, the organisers are free to keep all collected funds and use them as they see fit.



    First, I like this page better:

    https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/?wysija-page=1&controller=email&action=view&email_id=33&wysijap=subscriptions&user_id=445

    Now to address the last post.

    Andre has a somewhat dour outlook on the financial issues related to open ended donations, as was pointed out in when we were discussing donations for Kalamatee.

    Apparently the portion that reads "keep all collected funds and use them as they see fit" (Andre's emphasis) worries him.

    Hmm, maybe it doesn't worry me because I'm involved in the project, have donated to the project, etc.
    Also, IF, it reaches fruition, I'm already committed to buying at least a couple for our developers.

    At least part of the reason that the funds won't be returned is that at certain levels, they will be spent.
    The amount needed for the initial schematics is quite low, and once that is raised it WILL be turned over to Acube.

    Obviously, funds paid to Acube can not be returned.

    I'm not at all happy with the tone of Andre's post.
    A lot of time has been spent selecting specific components (with feedback from Acube) including the chassis.
    And a contract has been obtained for the design work.

    Its a serious project, involving real work that will have to be paid for, so if the idea that the funds will be spent bothers some of you, then you have my apologies, but some things that will have to be paid for are irretrievable.

    Edit - I'd also like to note that the figure Andreas mentioned is an estimate for the entire development project. The current campaign is to cover the cost of the initial schematics.

    Of the needed €12,600.00, €1,077.00 has already been donated.




    [ Edited by Jim 24.06.2017 - 16:19 ]
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.06.17 - 13:01
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4058 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> "we recalculated the amount to raise, placing it at 55000 €."
    >>> http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2016/04/which-software-do-you-want-for-the-gnulinux-powerpc-notebook/

    >> Fundraising has now started, and the required amount has been placed at 60250 EUR.

    > the figure Andreas mentioned is an estimate for the entire development project.

    Yes, of course. Just like the figure quoted before.


    I'd caution you not to expect either of those figures to be "hard" numbers.
    While the figure I mentioned for the schematics IS the initial amount that was requested by Acube.

    I don't know that 55000 OR 60250 (which is oddly specific) will be the end figure, I just know what has been quoted to get the initial work done.
    AND there is a lot of work after that.

    Plus, as I'm sure someone will point out, you aren't being promised anything for your money.
    And yet...I'm still in.

    If we get this done, I will have a PPC laptop that is only slightly slower than my current i7 powered laptop that can support TWICE as many threads.

    So...while I look forward to MorphOS moving to X64, AND I have no assurance that an NG OS will ever be ported to this device (IF it even gets built)...I still want one. As a high water mark for PPC development.

    I own a Quad core G5, I'll buy an X5000/40 when introduced, and I want one of these.
    No one said we had to be practical (or we'd all be sticking with OSX and windows).

    Even if this never runs anything other than Linux, I think we will have accomplished something.

    And, in terms of computing power, this portable device should be more powerful than an X5000/40 (once SMP is factored in).

    As we've also generated some interest in continuing to maintain big endian PPC Linux distros...ah, heck, this will just be...fun!
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.06.17 - 23:44
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2378 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    I'm not at all happy with the tone of Andre's post.


    The way I see it, there is no "tone" there at all, merely a healthy note of consumer enlightenment. The Amiga scene has had quite a few devastating "pre-payment" schemes. And this is not even about pre-payment towards *a deliverable product*. It's about hope and dreams.

    When asking 60250 EUR for something that is very likely to literally end up as *vapor*, I think it's quite fair to attach a note that it's not a "regular bounty" with refund policy. I for one am grateful for this note.

    That said, whatever you do with your money is your own business...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »24.06.17 - 23:47
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4058 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    I'm not at all happy with the tone of Andre's post.


    The way I see it, there is no "tone" there at all, merely a healthy note of consumer enlightenment. The Amiga scene has had quite a few devastating "pre-payment" schemes. And this is not even about pre-payment towards *a deliverable product*. It's about hope and dreams.

    When asking 60250 EUR for something that is very likely to literally end up as *vapor*, I think it's quite fair to attach a note that it's not a "regular bounty" with refund policy. I for one am grateful for this note.

    That said, whatever you do with your money is your own business...


    "Consumer enlightenment"?
    As you've said, this isn't even a "pre-payment scheme". If you were being promised something, maybe...

    And not to sound snide, but as to vapor, when IS Qbox due?
    OR, to make it even more pointed, won't we look a bit silly if the other NG OS adopt SMP, and we're still sitting on our 'superiority'?

    BTW - What I do, with my limited funds, appears to be more than most of you do (outside of David).
    Do, or don't do, as you will, not only is your business yours (and obviously mine is mine), but I'm completely comfortable with my decisions.

    [ Edited by Jim 24.06.2017 - 20:40 ]
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.06.17 - 00:26
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