SMP/AMP, or other multiprocessing for MorphOS???
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    Quote:

    In_Correct wrote:
    May I ask, how many new hardwares contain more than one processing core?...


    IMO: it would be futile to design/produce a board with single core CPU.
    Multicore variants are not that much more expensive and by using multicore SoC, the HW might be interesting also to some Linux/Android geeks etc..

    For example Quad core T1042 will be available for USD65...USD80 and T1022 will surely be cheaper.
    When the system price will anyway be around USD250...300 or more, a few 10USD in SOC price is not that important.
    So I personally would leave singecore T1 PPC models out of the question.


    The board that I'm looking forward to buy and experiment with: T1042RDB-PA ~$1,100
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »06.06.14 - 09:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > almost all G4 PowerMacs were sold with factory dual G4 CPU cards in them

    No. As I said, almost all G4 PowerMac generations *include* factory dual-CPU models. This doesn't mean that almost all G4 PowerMacs were sold with factory dual-CPU cards. In fact, the majority (61% going by the number of models, not by the number of sales) of the MorphOS-supported G4 PowerMacs is made up of models with factory single-CPU cards.
  • »06.06.14 - 11:06
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
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    Nice to see this conversation continuing.
    Obviously, our future systems will all be multi core.
    My Macs have been at least dual core since I upgraded my Quicksilver to 1 GHz.

    While single core PPC processors are still available, from a price perspective it does not make sense to use them.

    Since Andreas first mentioned the T1042, this has seems the ideal processor to focus on.
    Not surprisingly, Andreas was also one of the first people to mention the e5500 core.

    If we could find a good carrier board that would just require a CPU card, the T1042 could help us realize a low cost PPC platform.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.06.14 - 11:36
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
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    > how many new hardwares contain more than one processing core?

    Very many ;-)

    > Are these CPUs?

    Yes, CPU chips today usually come as symmetric multicore. GPU chips have been massively symmetric multicore (100s to 1000s of cores) for even longer time. And then there're SoCs, which are chips that are asymmetric multicore with 1...n symmetric CPU cores plus (for instance) 1...n symmetric GPU cores plus 1...n DSP cores plus...

    > Are the single core CPU becoming endangered species?

    I'd say yes, except for CPUs for some low-performance niches.

    > Eventually, MorphOS should somehow be supporting more than one CPU core
    > if that is all that becomes available. ...unless MorphOS Team wants to
    > make custom hardware with single core CPU.

    Of course it's perfectly possible to just support one core of a multicore CPU and ignore (or better put to sleep) the other cores. At least it makes more sense for producers of a single-core OS to just support existing multicore hardware in single-core mode than producing their own custom single-core hardware.
  • »06.06.14 - 11:48
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    ...
    If we could find a good carrier board that would just require a CPU card, the T1042 could help us realize a low cost PPC platform.


    T1022 and T1042 SoC cards should be coming available now.
    (there seems to be small delay, LE for several releases was April 2014)

    And when using separate carrier board, it means higher cost than stand alone board with onboard T1. And as these Qoriq chips have so huge amount of things built in (like connection to four PCIe card slots, basic built in graphics, etc.) there might not be carrier that can handle enough.

    Too bad that when there is so limited amount of SW developers, there is even less next gen HW developers. Only ACube? (A-Eon outsources the R&D for highest cost)
    But then there is a lot of HW gurus spitting out classic HW stuff...

    To me it seems PPC chip options are better than a few years back, so perhaps we see nice things happening soonish. (also crowd funding seems to have become usable as well)


    continuing about multicore...
    We do not have R&D resources for it, but all modern PPC SOC support HW partitioning and virtualizations to allow several operating systems to be running at the same time. So it is perfectly doable to have MorphOS3 on core0, AmigaOS4 on core1, Multicore64bitmemoryprotectedOS on cores 2...23.

    [ Edited by KimmoK 06.06.2014 - 11:05 ]
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »06.06.14 - 11:57
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1723 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Quote:

    We do not have R&D resources for it, but all modern PPC SOC support HW partitioning and virtualizations to allow several operating systems to be running at the same time. So it is perfectly doable to have MorphOS3 on core0, AmigaOS4 on core1, Multicore64bitmemoryprotectedOS on cores 2...23.


    Does that mean we could run a hypothetical "Classic MorphOS" and a "NG MorphOS" at the same time?
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  • »06.06.14 - 12:40
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Does that mean we could run a hypothetical "Classic MorphOS" and a "NG MorphOS" at the same time?


    Yes.
    Example drawing: http://eecatalog.com/images/multicore/2009/pg_14.jpg
    (old source)

    (something more uptodate (pdf from freescale))

    [ Edited by KimmoK 06.06.2014 - 11:55 ]
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »06.06.14 - 12:50
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Quote:

    We do not have R&D resources for it, but all modern PPC SOC support HW partitioning and virtualizations to allow several operating systems to be running at the same time. So it is perfectly doable to have MorphOS3 on core0, AmigaOS4 on core1, Multicore64bitmemoryprotectedOS on cores 2...23.


    Does that mean we could run a hypothetical "Classic MorphOS" and a "NG MorphOS" at the same time?


    Yes, many of the newer PPCs can enable hypervisor support.
    Even the G5 should have had it (I understand it is disabled).
    So, with a few minor modifications our current OS could run concurrently with a more modern 64 bit version.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.06.14 - 13:14
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Krashan
    Posts: 1106 from 2003/6/11
    From: Białystok...
    To sum it up: technical possibility is one thing. Feasibility, needed worktime and their relation to achieved outcome is another.
  • »09.06.14 - 08:40
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1723 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Krashan

    Of course. We just hope it can be done, someday, somehow. I'm prepare to donate to a bounty for that. We got G5 support that way, so I guess it's a way :-)
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  • »09.06.14 - 12:14
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    WB_Coder
    Posts: 66 from 2014/5/1
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    @Krashan

    Of course. We just hope it can be done, someday, somehow. I'm prepare to donate to a bounty for that. We got G5 support that way, so I guess it's a way :-)


    If the MorphOS Dev. Team members ever thought it was a worthwhile effort, I would also support a bounty. From what I have read in this thread though, it does not appear to be worth the effort, because the benefit would be too small and the effort to create it is too great. One or both of those things would need to change, to make any kind of multiprocessing project & bounty worthwhile.

    I wonder if the effort to do AMP on AmigaOS4.x will turn out the same as their laptop/netbook, and we will see an announcement 6 months or a year from now telling us that, after further review and working on the project, it has been cancelled, for what ever reason.

    I don't wish for anyone to fail at their efforts, but always want real information and updates on progress.
    WB_Coder = Wanna Be Coder
  • »13.06.14 - 21:48
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1723 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @WB_Coder

    Multicore, better MP and all that kind of stuff only make sense if you have to break compatibility no matter what you do. My "wish" was rather directed to a 64 bit version. Memory handling in MorphOS works quite well (you can never do anything about bad code: it crashes on MOS as well as Windows) and the system doesn't feel sluggish even on 10 year old HW.

    I'm a little wishy-washy when it comes to MorphOS and these kinds of requests. On the one hand I would really welcome new, modern hardware (even expensive hardware if it was worth it) and a 64 bit version. On the other hand, as soon as I remind myself that just changing HW doesn't mean that users nor new (or even old) software will automatically appear, I become less enthusiastic. My bet is that a lot of the people on various Amiga forums who claims they would buy an Amiga system if it was cheap wouldn't really. They would start complaining that there are no software etc.

    That's why I think the best approach would be to make the 64 bit MorphOS on a G5 so you could have a dual boot. It would give programmers a way to start porting to that system. But it also only make sense if you stick with PPC (let's see how Open POWER works out).

    Damn if you do, damn if you don't ...
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  • »13.06.14 - 22:18
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1513 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Silly SMP implementation in AROS is open and you can follow its progress with little effort. You knew it already but I wanted to remind about it because it attempts to preserve maximum source code compatibility.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »13.06.14 - 22:18
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Yasu
    Posts: 1723 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @itix

    Yes, I heard that it was very slow. Too slow to be at all usable even.
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  • »13.06.14 - 22:52
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Jupp3
    Posts: 1191 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    Yes, I heard that it was very slow. Too slow to be at all usable even.

    Not sure, but I don't think it's any less unusable than "no SMP" version. Just not offering enough benefits to bother writing something like it for MorphOS.
  • »14.06.14 - 12:52
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1513 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Quote:


    Not sure, but I don't think it's any less unusable than "no SMP" version. Just not offering enough benefits to bother writing something like it for MorphOS.



    It is less usable than non-SMP version. AROS developers are trying to make it usable but as now it runs slower and is unstable.

    [ Edited by itix 14.06.2014 - 12:22 ]
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »14.06.14 - 13:15
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
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    >> I heard that it was [...] Too slow to be at all usable even.

    > I don't think it's any less unusable than "no SMP" version.

    Sounds like you're in complete agreement ;-)
  • »14.06.14 - 13:37
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Jupp3
    Posts: 1191 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    >> I heard that it was [...] Too slow to be at all usable even.

    > I don't think it's any less unusable than "no SMP" version.

    Sounds like you're in complete agreement ;-)

    It's imposible to say on that small quote alone. It can also mean it's "actually making things even slower than non-multicore version", which I doubt...
  • »14.06.14 - 21:04
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9293 from 2003/5/22
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    >>>> I heard that it was [...] Too slow to be at all usable even.

    >>> I don't think it's any less unusable than "no SMP" version.

    >> Sounds like you're in complete agreement ;-)

    > It's imposible to say on that small quote alone.

    Actually, my comment was making fun of entanglement in a chain of negations, so that what's written comes out as the opposite of what's meant :-)
  • »14.06.14 - 21:33
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 888 from 2013/5/24
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    https://facebook.com/414578091930728/photos/a.583390791716123.1073741829.414578091930728/674728855915649/?type=1&theater

    [ Edited by Intuition 16.06.2014 - 07:59 ]
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »16.06.14 - 10:58
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    https://facebook.com/414578091930728/photos/a.583390791716123.1073741829.414578091930728/674728855915649/?type=1&theater


    That's one way to do it. (even if not the most "Amigan" way, as it uses linux underneath the hood)

    I wonder how the load is shared for both cores.
    If it's GL Gears of AROS, it should load only one core, right?
    (but perhaps there's SW rendered (on Linux) underneath...)
    UPDATE: Damocles gave some info, GL Gears was compiled for ARIX.


    (some other ARIX info etc. at eab)

    [ Edited by KimmoK 16.06.2014 - 14:31 ]
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »16.06.14 - 13:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2413 from 2003/2/24
    Amiga isn't SMP compatible, and "Silly SMP" isn't Amiga compatible, it's as simple as that. Sure, if you have to *recompile* all the apps for your OS (or run them in UAE - which again is an Amiga environment, hence it's not SMP compatible) like on most AROS systems, not to mention ARIX, *then* it's a different matter! But this is very different from the environment that MorphOS (or OS4) offers today. And if the Amiga legacy/binary compatibility is to be dropped (in MorphOS) anyway in favor of new features that can't fit into Amiga, then why not implement these things in a *clean* and *proper* way, built from ground up, instead of a "hackish" way that is just, well... Silly? I respect the effort from a "just for fun, lets get our hands dirty and explore how far we can take this" point of view (nothing wrong with that, especially not in an AROS context), but from a design point of view for real, end-user systems, it's a different matter. I think the best thing with "Silly SMP" is its name!



    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma 16.06.2014 - 12:16 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »16.06.14 - 14:04
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4251 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Amiga isn't SMP compatible, and "Silly SMP" isn't Amiga compatible, it's as simple as that. Sure, if you have to *recompile* all the apps for your OS (or run them in UAE - which again is an Amiga environment, hence it's not SMP compatible) like on most AROS systems, not to mention ARIX, *then* it's a different matter! But this is very different from the environment that MorphOS (or OS4) offers today. And if the Amiga legacy/binary compatibility is to be dropped (in MorphOS) anyway in favor of new features that can't fit into Amiga, then why not implement these things in a *clean* and *proper* way, built from ground up, instead of a "hackish" way that is just, well... Silly? I respect the effort from a "just for fun, lets get our hands dirty and explore how far we can take this" point of view (nothing wrong with that, especially not in an AROS context), but from a design point of view for real, end-user systems, it's a different matter. I think the best thing with "Silly SMP" is its name!




    While I always appreciate your input, I don't think we all were talking about "Silly SMP".
    Just the few that have mentioned AROS.
    We were talking about running our current OS concurrently with an SMP enabled version.
    The latter would, by necessity, be incapable of running Amiga applications outside of UAE.
    MorphOS would run on one core, leaving the rest for the SMP OS.

    For running legacy Amiga and MorphOS applications, this would be ideal.

    And the SMP capable OS would be a great stepping stone to a 64 bit OS on a new ISA.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.06.14 - 14:32
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 888 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Amiga isn't SMP compatible, and "Silly SMP" isn't Amiga compatible, it's as simple as that. Sure, if you have to *recompile* all the apps for your OS (or run them in UAE - which again is an Amiga environment, hence it's not SMP compatible) like on most AROS systems, not to mention ARIX, *then* it's a different matter! But this is very different from the environment that MorphOS (or OS4) offers today. And if the Amiga legacy/binary compatibility is to be dropped (in MorphOS) anyway in favor of new features that can't fit into Amiga, then why not implement these things in a *clean* and *proper* way, built from ground up, instead of a "hackish" way that is just, well... Silly? I respect the effort from a "just for fun, lets get our hands dirty and explore how far we can take this" point of view (nothing wrong with that, especially not in an AROS context), but from a design point of view for real, end-user systems, it's a different matter. I think the best thing with "Silly SMP" is its name!




    Quoted for future reference. ;)
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »16.06.14 - 22:03
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 888 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Amiga isn't SMP compatible, and "Silly SMP" isn't Amiga compatible, it's as simple as that. Sure, if you have to *recompile* all the apps for your OS (or run them in UAE - which again is an Amiga environment, hence it's not SMP compatible) like on most AROS systems, not to mention ARIX, *then* it's a different matter! But this is very different from the environment that MorphOS (or OS4) offers today. And if the Amiga legacy/binary compatibility is to be dropped (in MorphOS) anyway in favor of new features that can't fit into Amiga, then why not implement these things in a *clean* and *proper* way, built from ground up, instead of a "hackish" way that is just, well... Silly? I respect the effort from a "just for fun, lets get our hands dirty and explore how far we can take this" point of view (nothing wrong with that, especially not in an AROS context), but from a design point of view for real, end-user systems, it's a different matter. I think the best thing with "Silly SMP" is its name!




    While I always appreciate your input, I don't think we all were talking about "Silly SMP".
    Just the few that have mentioned AROS.
    We were talking about running our current OS concurrently with an SMP enabled version.
    The latter would, by necessity, be incapable of running Amiga applications outside of UAE.
    MorphOS would run on one core, leaving the rest for the SMP OS.

    For running legacy Amiga and MorphOS applications, this would be ideal.

    And the SMP capable OS would be a great stepping stone to a 64 bit OS on a new ISA.




    Sounds line an excellent way forward to me. It all depends on the MorphOS team though.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »16.06.14 - 22:05
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