Licence to distribute Workbench 3.1, Rom 3.1 and Rom 1.3
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Chain-Q
    Posts: 332 from 2003/10/12
    From: 1 AU, EU, DE/HU
    I don't think anyone can give you trusted legal advice on this forum.

    But I would be very careful, as there's a lawsuit going on regarding the software you mention (or there was a lawsuit? Did they settle yet?), so whoever claims ownership can be proven wrong on the court later, and then you might run into troubles again. (Sad as it is, this is the state of classic Amiga ROMs today. They can be toxic for a project.)

    I'd say - although I do not speak for them - it's definitely not the MorphOS Team who are the right people to ask tho', as I doubt they would want to be affiliated with binary blobs from untrusted sources, especially if those binary blobs' ownership are repeatedly disputed.

    Isn't bundling AROS Kickstart an option for a stop-gap solution? WinUAE has that as default at least, IIRC, hasn't it? So it should work for most things, with the disclaimer that for full compatibility the user is expected to provide their own ROM if they own it.
    [.PegasosII/G4.:.Efika.:.Amiga2000/060.]
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  • »13.06.18 - 17:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9745 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Did they settle yet?

    No, still ongoing.
  • »13.06.18 - 22:41
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  • esc
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    esc
    Posts: 124 from 2013/5/28
    I like this idea but expect you'll probably have some licensing issues. Either that or we'd be expected to pay to license these items, which most of us probably already have licenses for.

    What I'd be much more interested in is some kind of script where we provide these items (if we already have them) and the script auto configures everything and places them where they need to go for things to "just work" :)
  • »13.06.18 - 23:36
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  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 398 from 2003/8/18
    I would advise against attempting to get a license too, seeing how they are all disputing right now.

    AROS appears to be a good alternative to me, and you won't run into legal problems for sure, not now, not in a few years (you never know what can happen with Amiga licensing).
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »14.06.18 - 07:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2490 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Papiosaur wrote:
    Hello,

    i search a solution to distribute Workbench 3.1 files, Rom 3.1 and Rom 1.3 with E-UAE into the Chrysalis pack to integrate Amiga system into MorphOS like this :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3t-iQkI1tk&t=8s

    Who should i ask the question ? Cloanto ? Amiga Inc. ?

    Is will be possible to the MorphOS Team to ask a licence for that ?

    Thanks for your answer

    /sorry for my bad english...

    [ Edité par Papiosaur 13.06.2018 - 19:58 ]


    Cloanto is the one you should ask. They alone owns Amiga (what Commodore left) today. They are the registered copyright holders, as this 51 pages long list from the database of the US Copyright Office confirms (though not all of the copyrighted works are listed in the public database, nor does it have to be).

    In fact, when Amiga Inc was to offer old Amiga classic games on the Blackberry platform, they actually had to license the OS components (exactly what you are talking about above) from Cloanto. ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »14.06.18 - 14:54
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1842 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma schrieb:
    Quote:

    Papiosaur wrote:
    Hello,

    i search a solution to distribute Workbench 3.1 files, Rom 3.1 and Rom 1.3 with E-UAE into the Chrysalis pack to integrate Amiga system into MorphOS like this :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3t-iQkI1tk&t=8s

    Who should i ask the question ? Cloanto ? Amiga Inc. ?

    Is will be possible to the MorphOS Team to ask a licence for that ?

    Thanks for your answer

    /sorry for my bad english...

    [ Edité par Papiosaur 13.06.2018 - 19:58 ]


    Cloanto is the one you should ask. They alone owns Amiga (what Commodore left) today. They are the registered copyright holders, as this 51 pages long list from the database of the US Copyright Office confirms (though not all of the copyrighted works are listed in the public database, nor does it have to be).

    In fact, when Amiga Inc was to offer old Amiga classic games on the Blackberry platform, they actually had to license the OS components (exactly what you are talking about above) from Cloanto. ;-)

    It isn't as clear as you suggest. While you may be right it can be that some court decides differently.
    As others suggested I would propose to use AROS for UAE to avoid legal troubles.
    --
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    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »14.06.18 - 15:09
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4593 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Even with considerations for some of the residual hard feeling for Ben Herman's, I'd recommend considering Hyperion as a source for OS 3.1.

    Cloanto's claim to ownership is somewhat threadbare, and their original license dates back to a company that no longer exists.
    And that is what it was, a license.
    Transactions made with Amiga Inc. after it granted Hyperion the sole right to develop from OS3.1 are highly suspect.

    You all may not like this, but this is likely to be resolved in courts in the state I live in, and I'm fairly familiar with the law.

    And with previous judgements in their favor, it looks like the courts will rule in favor of Hyperion in this matter.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.06.18 - 15:58
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    kolla
    Posts: 102 from 2003/4/22
    Why not do like Apollo Team? Just grab whatever you want and release "anonymously" on some torrent? :)
    -- kolla
  • »14.06.18 - 21:11
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 987 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @kolla

    I know it is strange but there are these odd people who do have a conscience and try to do the right thing.
  • »14.06.18 - 21:39
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  • rob
  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 86 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Even with considerations for some of the residual hard feeling for Ben Herman's, I'd recommend considering Hyperion as a source for OS 3.1.

    Cloanto's claim to ownership is somewhat threadbare, and their original license dates back to a company that no longer exists.
    And that is what it was, a license.
    Transactions made with Amiga Inc. after it granted Hyperion the sole right to develop from OS3.1 are highly suspect.

    You all may not like this, but this is likely to be resolved in courts in the state I live in, and I'm fairly familiar with the law.

    And with previous judgements in their favor, it looks like the courts will rule in favor of Hyperion in this matter.


    Hyperion have previously sub licensed the Amiga OS IP. to third parties going back to 2012 when they licensed production of 3.1 ROMs to Amigakit. Individual Computers currently hold licenses to supply Kickstart 1.2, 1.3 and 3.1 with the ACA500+. According to product information page, the new Buddha IDE cards come with OS versions 1.3, 2.0 and 3.1 included.

    It would seem that Hyperion are the guys to go to but whether they would be prepared to do a deal relating to a product for a competing OS, especially considering past history, is another matter.


    @Papiosaur

    I would advise making enquiries with both Cloanto and Hyperion to determine what either party may or may not be willing to offer and then holding off until the dusts settles over rights and ownership, so that you don't fall foul of any future judgment in court or outside settlement.

    In the meantime you could do what Amikit does by extracting the files from other legal sources that many user already have or can easily purchase.

    [ Edited by rob 14.06.2018 - 22:29 ]
  • »14.06.18 - 22:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9745 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > this is likely to be resolved in courts in the state I live in

    You have moved from Delaware to New York? And hasn't the New York case (Cloanto vs. Hyperion) been merged with the newer Washington case (Hyperion vs. Amiga, Amino, Cloanto, Itec) and relocated to Washington? (Addendum: Or do you mean 'state' as in USA?)

    > with previous judgements in their favor, it looks like the courts
    > will rule in favor of Hyperion in this matter.

    It was a settlement agreement in September 2009 between Hyperion, Amiga, Amino and Itec. Had Pentti Kouri not died in January 2009 letting the money source run dry, maybe Hyperion's opposing parties would have been able to continue the trial instead of agreeing to a settlement. I'm not privy to Cloanto's financial resources compared to Hyperion's, though.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 15.06.2018 - 09:58 ]
  • »15.06.18 - 08:50
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  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 398 from 2003/8/18
    @Papiosaur

    Just wondering: it means you are planning to charge money for Chrysalis? How much are you planning to spend on such licenses?
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »15.06.18 - 09:43
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4593 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > this is likely to be resolved in courts in the state I live in

    You have moved from Delaware to New York? And hasn't the New York case (Cloanto vs. Hyperion) been merged with the newer Washington case (Hyperion vs. Amiga, Amino, Cloanto, Itec) and relocated to Washington? (Addendum: Or do you mean 'state' as in USA?)

    > with previous judgements in their favor, it looks like the courts
    > will rule in favor of Hyperion in this matter.

    It was a settlement agreement in September 2009 between Hyperion, Amiga, Amino and Itec. Had Pentti Kouri not died in January 2009 letting the money source run dry, maybe Hyperion's opposing parties would have been able to continue the trial instead of agreeing to a settlement. I'm not privy to Cloanto's financial resources compared to Hyperion's, though.


    Sorry, I'd assumed they'd hear the case in Delaware, but if it makes you feel any better, NYC is only a little more than a half hour train ride away.
    I visit that city and Washington DC frequently.

    As to Pentti Kouri, "his" resources were usually other's resources.

    And if those legal wranglings had continued, its my opinion that the courts would have invalidated Amiga Inc.'s claim to ownership of AmigaOS.

    As to personal feelings in this matter, it was a dispute between two organizations run by persons of questionable character.
    However, Hyperion was producing products, Amiga Inc never managed to accomplish anything that promoted to continuation of the Amiga line.

    They thrashed about with concepts like Amiga DE, destroyed their relationship with Haage and Partner, made many promises, and kept virtually none.

    Frankly, I wish that things had worked out differently, but had Amiga Inc. retained the rights to continue to develop Amiga OS, I believe even less progress would have been made than the limited progress made so far.

    And Cloanto's attempt at an IP grab will profit the community no more than Bill McEwen's past endeavors.
    They don't have a license to distribute OS 3.5 or OS 3.9, only earlier Commodore created variants, but have licensed later modules to update 3.1 to what they are calling "OS3.X".
    As Hyperion has an exclusive license to build on OS3.1 issued by Amiga Inc., the apparent legal precedents lay in Hyperion's favor.

    Unless Cloanto can prove an ownership agreement that predates the 2009 settlement, not a license from a bankrupt company, a transfer of rights from the apparent IP holder, they won't have much standing in a US court.


    [ Edited by Jim 15.06.2018 - 10:11 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.18 - 14:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9745 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> hasn't the New York case (Cloanto vs. Hyperion) been merged with the newer Washington
    >> case (Hyperion vs. Amiga, Amino, Cloanto, Itec) and relocated to Washington?

    > if it makes you feel any better

    I don't think this is about me or my feelings ;-)

    > NYC is only a little more than a half hour train ride away.

    As said, I think the case has not been based in New York for a while (April?).

    > I visit that city and Washington DC frequently.

    The combined case is based in Washington as in the west coast federal state, not DC.

    >> Had Pentti Kouri not died in January 2009 letting the money source run dry,
    >> maybe Hyperion's opposing parties would have been able to continue the
    >> trial instead of agreeing to a settlement.

    > As to Pentti Kouri, "his" resources were usually other's resources.

    At least in this context, I don't think it matters much where the money ultimately came from.

    > Amiga Inc [...] destroyed their relationship with Haage and Partner

    It may also be seen the other way round, given that according to Bernie Meyer, H&P could not produce a valid license for OS3.9 supplied with AmigaOS XL / Amiga XL / Amithlon.

    > Cloanto [...] don't have a license to distribute OS 3.5 or OS 3.9

    Does anybody have, except from selling old stock?
  • »15.06.18 - 15:53
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1122 from 2003/6/17
    How good is the AROS kickstart rom? Is it a full implementation of whatever the real kickstart rom provides?
  • »15.06.18 - 15:58
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4593 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    A lawsuit in Washington state seems pretty pointless.
    But then, legal issues are always convoluted.

    IF there are trying to re-litigate the issues related to that cumbersome transfer of IP rights, then those seeking funds from Pentti Kouri's estate would be the only likely benefactors I can see, not Cloanto.

    Cloanto would have less basis of a claim in that process than Genesi would.

    In any case, we're just spectators in need of some popcorn.



    [ Edited by Jim 15.06.2018 - 11:38 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.18 - 16:29
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9745 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > A lawsuit in Washington state seems pretty pointless.

    Really? Washington is where in March due to place of jurisdiction of the majority of the defendants, Hyperion sued Amiga Inc., Amino, Itec and Cloanto over breach of contract. And judge Martinez also presided over the court in the trial a decade ago, so he should know the parties (except Cloanto) inside out.

    > IF there are trying to re-litigate the issues related to that cumbersome transfer
    > of IP rights, then those seeking funds from Pentti Kouri's estate would be the
    > only likely benefactors I can see, not Cloanto.

    Yes, of course. But maybe this time Hyperion has worse funding (compared to Cloanto), who knows.

    > Cloanto would have less basis of a claim in that process than Genesi would.

    Genesi and copyright to any version of AmigaOS? I'm going to discount this as a figure of speech ;-)
  • »15.06.18 - 19:46
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4593 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >...judge Martinez also presided over the court in the trial a decade ago, so he should know the parties

    That will make it interesting.

    Outside of the initial 5 million dollar Amino Development investment, what have Amiga Inc, Hyperion, and Cloanto really invested to further an new Amiga platform?

    Cloanto's deal finalizing their claim to copyrights occurred in 2012.
    With a different corporate entity than they originally dealt with.

    This was the core of Hyperion's original case and what forced Amiga Inc's hand, the current Amiga Inc. isn't the company that Amino Development granted rights to. And you can't shift assets to avoid seizure in a bankruptcy.

    Amiga Inc. went bankrupt.

    So why wouldn't both Genesi and the MorphOS development team have a partial claim?
    Development work occurred before Bill McEwen played his shell game, didn't it?
    That establishes a prior relationship with the previous IP holder.

    As it does Hyperion's.

    Honestly, if there is one similarity between our developers and Hyperion's, its Bill McEwen's expectation of complete control of OS' that took so much time and effort to create for so little money.

    Our team bowed out gracefully, Hermans' was smart enough to insert a bankruptcy clause in his contract.

    Really, except for the friction over some of those public statements, we aren't too far apart.

    McEwen would have taken advantage of anyone he thought he could pull a fast one on.
    He just signed a contract with someone smarter than him.
    And considering his experience with ITEC, McEwen should have been more experienced at slick wheeling and dealing.

    But this last big attempted swindle with Cloanto?
    Its oh so complicated.

    Because the people that really should have the rights to the assets are those still owed by Amiga Inc II.
    Amiga Inc. III really shouldn't have been allowed to assume control of the IP.
    So really, neither Hyperion or Cloanto relationship with Amiga Inc III is really at the core of this.

    If so, Hyperion's previous bankruptcy clause becomes relevant.

    [ Edited by Jim 15.06.2018 - 15:44 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.18 - 20:34
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 976 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    How good is the AROS kickstart rom? Is it a full implementation of whatever the real kickstart rom provides?


    Good enough to play trackloading games or boot the 68K AROS Workbench but you can't use it to boot Amiga OS yet.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »15.06.18 - 20:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1842 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Intuition schrieb:
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    How good is the AROS kickstart rom? Is it a full implementation of whatever the real kickstart rom provides?


    Good enough to play trackloading games or boot the 68K AROS Workbench but you can't use it to boot Amiga OS yet.


    And hence it is rather good enough for an add on package for MorphOS. I mean there is little need to run full AmigaOS on MorphOS. UAE on MorphOS is more about directly launched games. I would avoid original AmigaOS for a free distribution. With the AROS kickstart a lot can be launched and it spreads AROS a bit in the real world.
    --
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    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »15.06.18 - 22:22
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 113 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> hasn't the New York case (Cloanto vs. Hyperion) been merged with the newer Washington
    >> case (Hyperion vs. Amiga, Amino, Cloanto, Itec) and relocated to Washington?

    > if it makes you feel any better

    I don't think this is about me or my feelings ;-)

    > NYC is only a little more than a half hour train ride away.

    As said, I think the case has not been based in New York for a while (April?).

    > I visit that city and Washington DC frequently.

    The combined case is based in Washington as in the west coast federal state, not DC.

    >> Had Pentti Kouri not died in January 2009 letting the money source run dry,
    >> maybe Hyperion's opposing parties would have been able to continue the
    >> trial instead of agreeing to a settlement.

    > As to Pentti Kouri, "his" resources were usually other's resources.

    At least in this context, I don't think it matters much where the money ultimately came from.

    > Amiga Inc [...] destroyed their relationship with Haage and Partner

    It may also be seen the other way round, given that according to Bernie Meyer, H&P could not produce a valid license for OS3.9 supplied with AmigaOS XL / Amiga XL / Amithlon.

    > Cloanto [...] don't have a license to distribute OS 3.5 or OS 3.9

    Does anybody have, except from selling old stock?


    Excellent memory.

    April 12, 2018

    And actually "transferred" as opposed to merged. These are seperate cases and amended claims have been filed for each one.

    Cloanto's amended complaint
    Hyperion's amended complaint not posted yet.

    #6


    [ Edited by number6 15.06.2018 - 17:29 ]
  • »15.06.18 - 22:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9745 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > what have Hyperion [...] really invested to further an new Amiga platform?

    Figures from 2013:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9360&start=58

    > the current Amiga Inc. isn't the company that Amino Development granted rights to.

    I'm not sure I can correctly parse this. Of course, Amiga Inc. isn't Hyperion.

    > Amiga Inc. went bankrupt.

    Interestingly, Amino (Amiga Inc. Washington) has continued to exist to this day, in parallel to Amiga Inc. Delaware (KMOS). That's why Hyperion is currently suing both (plus the alleged interim copyright owner, Itec).

    > So why wouldn't both Genesi and the MorphOS development team have a partial claim?
    > Development work occurred before Bill McEwen played his shell game, didn't it?
    > That establishes a prior relationship with the previous IP holder. As it does Hyperion's.

    You completely lost me here. I can't make any sense of this, sorry.

    > considering his experience with ITEC, McEwen should have been more experienced
    > at slick wheeling and dealing.

    McEwen's experience with Itec? What do you mean in particular?
  • »15.06.18 - 22:35
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 291 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    The Amiga IP will likely remain unusable for decades to come, regardless of the outcome of Hyperion's litigation spree. AmigaOS is dead in every conceivable way.

    Same thing has also been seen for other old IP of uncertain ownership, such as ZX Spectrum games and C64. All it takes is one frivolous claim to bring down a startup or scare off community enthusiasts. Games and emulators were being taken off app stores for it even before Hyperion had released OS4.
  • »15.06.18 - 22:38
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