Cloanto sues Hyperion
  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4693 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Let me quote from the actual statement:

    "Hyperion [...] reaffirms unequivocally that [...] it has the worldwide exclusive right to distribute and sublicense AmigaOS on a standalone basis or bundled with hardware (OEM license), either on a physical medium (such as a ROM or DVD) or electronically (digital download)."

    For the sake of completeness, it might be worth pointing out a rather significant ommission in the quoted statement. There is no claim that Hyperion Entertainment has any supposed exclusive rights to distribute AmigaOS as part of software bundles. It strictly refers to hardware bundles or standalone versions only.

    Examples of software bundles would be the various Amiga Forever editions that have been sold for years and contain versions of AmigaOS. Furthermore, if the forementioned statement regarding exclusive rights were to be accurate, any offering that combines AmigaOS with another virtual (non-hardware) element, which could be as simple as a "checkmark" wallpaper, would not be affected...



    Thanks Andre,

    I know that you always try to remain fair (as opposed to my hot-headed approach).
    That IS a very good point.
    And if proven correct, it negates Cloanto's right to distribute ROMs.

    It also could be used as an argument excusing that messy situation of Hyperion's bundling of Workbench 1.3 with OS4.

    And, hopefully, you all understand that I'm not an apologist for Ben Herman's (in a choice between him and the Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side...I'd always favor team blue), BUT I'm trying not to let sentiment color my perceptions.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »05.01.18 - 19:52
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9937 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> There is no claim that Hyperion Entertainment has any supposed exclusive rights
    >> to distribute AmigaOS as part of software bundles. [...] Examples of software
    >> bundles would be the various Amiga Forever editions that have been sold for years
    >> and contain versions of AmigaOS. Furthermore, if the forementioned statement
    >> regarding exclusive rights were to be accurate, any offering that combines AmigaOS
    >> with another virtual (non-hardware) element, which could be as simple as a
    >> "checkmark" wallpaper, would not be affected...

    > That IS a very good point. And if proven correct, it negates Cloanto's right to distribute ROMs.

    Huh? How do you arrive at this idea from the quoted conclusion that Hyperion's license to bundle AmigaOS with other software might not be exclusive? How would this negate Cloanto's "right to distribute ROMs"?

    > It also could be used as an argument excusing that messy situation of Hyperion's
    > bundling of Workbench 1.3 with OS4.

    That's not how I read it.

    > in a choice between him and the Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side...I'd always favor team blue

    "Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side" is so last decade :-P
  • »05.01.18 - 21:07
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4693 from 2009/1/28
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    >>> There is no claim that Hyperion Entertainment has any supposed exclusive rights
    >>> to distribute AmigaOS as part of software bundles. [...] Examples of software
    >>> bundles would be the various Amiga Forever editions that have been sold for years
    >>> and contain versions of AmigaOS. Furthermore, if the forementioned statement
    >>> regarding exclusive rights were to be accurate, any offering that combines AmigaOS
    >>> with another virtual (non-hardware) element, which could be as simple as a
    >>> "checkmark" wallpaper, would not be affected...

    >> That IS a very good point. And if proven correct, it negates Cloanto's right to distribute ROMs.

    >Huh? How do you arrive at this idea from the quoted conclusion that Hyperion's license to bundle AmigaOS with other software might not be exclusive? How would this negate Cloanto's "right to distribute ROMs"?

    If Hyperion has the exclusive right to deliver AmigaOS with hardware...a ROM IS hardware, not just media.

    >> It also could be used as an argument excusing that messy situation of Hyperion's
    >> bundling of Workbench 1.3 with OS4.

    >That's not how I read it.

    IF they can prove they have the right to distribute AmigaOS variants (other than 3.1) with hardware, it at least negates the CDs that were shipped with hardware (a fairly high % I'd imagine).

    >> in a choice between him and the Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side...I'd always favor team blue

    >"Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side" is so last decade :-P

    Well...that would actually bring me a LOT more up to date, as I'm still spending a lot of time hacking 6809 and 68K based hardware. ;-)

    Anyway, we've seen from posts quoting Herman's that indicated he thought his settlement granted him use of alternative ISAs.

    The question for me is this, is Hyperion's right to create new variants of AmigaOS limited to OS4 and above or is it anything beyond OS3.1?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »05.01.18 - 21:39
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9937 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If Hyperion has the exclusive right to deliver AmigaOS with hardware...a ROM IS hardware,
    > not just media.

    Alright, I was just thinking of ROM image files, not physical ROMs. But then, a ROM is just a storage medium, just like a CD or DVD (which also can contain ROM image files).

    > we've seen from posts quoting Herman's that indicated he thought his settlement granted
    > him use of alternative ISAs.

    Yes, and having read the settlement agreement myself, I think he is correct. Problem is that Hyperion doesn't own most of OS4 but the individual, non-paid developers do, who Hyperion likely just got an object code (PPC) license (as opposed to source code license) from.

    > is Hyperion's right to create new variants of AmigaOS limited to OS4 and above or is it
    > anything beyond OS3.1?

    I'm not sure about that, but seeing as Cloanto didn't put anything about Hyperion's OS3.1.x attempts in their "prayer for relief"...
  • »06.01.18 - 17:59
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4693 from 2009/1/28
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    >> is Hyperion's right to create new variants of AmigaOS limited to OS4 and above or is it
    >> anything beyond OS3.1?

    >I'm not sure about that, but seeing as Cloanto didn't put anything about Hyperion's OS3.1.x attempts in their >"prayer for relief"...

    Now that is interesting. So they don't even intend to address the gray areas.
    Then they might just win this.

    It will all come down to Ben's contention that he has a right to include early variants of Workbench bundled with his software. And I've seen no proof of that statement.

    Again, I have to wonder what the outcome of this all will be.

    Your analysis of this situation has been very helpful.
    No overtly emotional response, just research and thoughtful consideration.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.01.18 - 22:25
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9937 from 2003/5/22
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    >> Cloanto didn't put anything about Hyperion's OS3.1.x attempts in their "prayer for relief"

    > Now that is interesting.

    And it didn't become less interesting since I mentioned it in comments #12 and #56 ;-)
  • »06.01.18 - 22:54
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4693 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> Cloanto didn't put anything about Hyperion's OS3.1.x attempts in their "prayer for relief"

    > Now that is interesting.

    And it didn't become less interesting since I mentioned it in comments #12 and #56 ;-)


    Hmm...short term memory loss w/o pot, must be age. ;-)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.01.18 - 00:16
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  • rob
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    rob
    Posts: 90 from 2008/7/22
    According to the description on his site, Jens' new Buddha IDE card will come with OS version 1.3, 2.1 and 3.1 licensed from Hyperion. This appears to expand upon the March 2013 license agreement which granted Individual Computers to include Kickstart 1.3 and 3.1 with accelerator cards for A500, A1000 and A2000 computers.

    https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/buddha-ide.html
  • »09.01.18 - 18:58
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Intuition
    Posts: 1009 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    According to the description on his site, Jens' new Buddha IDE card will come with OS version 1.3, 2.1 and 3.1 licensed from Hyperion. This appears to expand upon the March 2013 license agreement which granted Individual Computers to include Kickstart 1.3 and 3.1 with accelerator cards for A500, A1000 and A2000 computers.

    https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/buddha-ide.html


    It seems piracy is only bad when Ben isn't the one doing it. Lest we also forget his C64 cracking ventures.
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  • »09.01.18 - 21:37
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2517 from 2003/2/24
    @rob

    That's interesting, thanks.

    Apparently (in the context of Cloanto's case against Hyperion) we are not only talking about past and present tense but also future products not even on the market yet. Does the fact that this is happening in Europe prevent Cloanto from using it as meaningful evidence in the *current* case?

    It almost appears as Hyperion has replaced their by now most certainly non-existent OS4 business with a scheme where they practically are selling Cloanto's *entire IP portfolio* to everyone and his dog without Cloanto's consent. Is there anything more of it they can sell? Any other Commodore stuff? Together with their Workbench trademark infringement, as well as them trying to register Cloanto's since long "AmigaForever" and "Workbench" trademarks, this sure shows the true colors of Hyperion Entertainment.
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  • »09.01.18 - 21:47
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2517 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:

    It seems piracy is only bad when Ben isn't the one doing it. Lest we also forget his C64 cracking ventures.



    Once a pirate, always a pirate...
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  • »09.01.18 - 21:48
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 352 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Looks like Amiga Inc have joined the party and filed for the Amiga name in europe.
  • »09.01.18 - 22:23
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 1849 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    KennyR schrieb:
    Looks like Amiga Inc have joined the party and filed for the Amiga name in europe.


    Hahaha, zombie inc still able to play the party spoiler... The mess becomes even bigger. As I said multiple times: one of the best things of MorphOS is that it left "the name" beyond.
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  • »10.01.18 - 00:05
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    number6
    Posts: 173 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Looks like Amiga Inc have joined the party and filed for the Amiga name in europe.

    They never really left this particular party as their current filing is for simply prolonging their existing registration of the EU mark.

    http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2017-09-00019-EN.html


    I'm more curious about who signed the paperwork, given that they deleted their representative well over a year ago.

    #6
  • »10.01.18 - 22:13
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    takemehomegrandma
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    Ben Hermans? ”If I can’t have it, nobody else should either?” ;-)
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  • »10.01.18 - 22:53
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    number6
    Posts: 173 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Ben Hermans? ”If I can’t have it, nobody else should either?” ;-)


    From the euipo doc:

    Quote:

    Amiga Inc
    167 Madison Avenue, Suite 301
    New York, NY 10016


    Quote:

    C/o John Grzymala 167 Madison Ave #301

    Source


    I've said this SO many times, it's really become tiring.
    This is a maildrop Period. People have been there. We know this. It is called "fact".
    Grzymala != Amiga Inc. either in the present OR the past. He was the man in charge of the Kouri family trust, which is highly documented. It is also highly documented on to whom these duties fell after the death of Pentti Kouri. It is also why you see Itec LLC and their attorneys as opposer to Cloanto's uspto filing for workmark "Amiga" and NOT Amiga Inc. and their former attorney Darren B. Cohen.
    If you think this man (Grzymala) is really running a company called Amiga Inc., and/or handling paperwork for renewing a trademark then I've really wasted years posting facts about who is who in this drama.

    #6
  • »11.01.18 - 14:24
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    Kronos
    Posts: 1783 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    number6 wrote: I've really wasted years posting facts about who is who in this drama.

    #6


    QFT



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  • »11.01.18 - 14:53
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    KennyR
    Posts: 352 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    I believe that Amiga Inc have received a huge amount of funding and are just about ready to release AmigaOS 5.0 for the Commodore Smartphone. It will come with free blackjack and hookers and a totally orthogonally persistent vertically scaled customer experience metric. And Blackberry games courtesy of a 300+ strong Indian development team.

    Either that or Ben Hermans just prodded whoever was in charge of the Amiga Inc filing cabinet to keep to the settlement and renew the trademark because it gives him more leverage against Cloanto.
  • »11.01.18 - 16:54
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Stevo
    Posts: 812 from 2004/1/24
    From: #AmigaZeux
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    I believe that Amiga Inc have received a huge amount of funding and are just about ready to release AmigaOS 5.0 for the Commodore Smartphone. It will come with free blackjack and hookers and a totally orthogonally persistent vertically scaled customer experience metric. And Blackberry games courtesy of a 300+ strong Indian development team.

    Either that or Ben Hermans just prodded whoever was in charge of the Amiga Inc filing cabinet to keep to the settlement and renew the trademark because it gives him more leverage against Cloanto.


    I really dont understand all the fuzz and hate. It's a well known fact that that Hyperion (Ben Hermans and lesser gods) was/where and is/are capable to develop OS4 without any "help" of Amiga Inc. It made OS4 what it is today. OS4 is here to stay and no "Amiga" trademark suits will ever stop the momentum. Who cares about the whole "Amiga" name anyway?
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  • »12.01.18 - 22:37
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2504 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Stevo wrote:
    I really dont understand all the fuzz and hate. It's a well known fact that that Hyperion (Ben Hermans and lesser gods) was/where and is/are capable to develop OS4 without any "help" of Amiga Inc. It made OS4 what it is today. OS4 is here to stay and no "Amiga" trademark suits will ever stop the momentum. Who cares about the whole "Amiga" name anyway?



    Who cares?

    1. Colanto
    2. Hyperion Entertainment
    3. Amiga Inc.
    4. Individual Computers
    5. Probably AmigaKit and A-Eon, and a few others as well.

    Edit: Regarding your assumption that Hyperion (Ben Hermans ...) is/are capable to develop OS4 without any help, I beg to differ. IMHO, Hyperion Entertainment has NEVER been capable of developing OS4, alone, or with the several volunteer programmers who have spent hundreds, or thousands of hours coding it without pay, and the very few programmers, who have been paid (or partially paid), to code OS4. When was OS4.2 supposed to be finished? Is anyone even working on completing OS4.2 anymore? Seems that the only work being completed any more are updates from programmers being paid by A-Eon/AmigaKit.

    [ Edited by amigadave 12.01.2018 - 15:52 ]
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  • »13.01.18 - 00:45
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Acill
    Posts: 1879 from 2003/10/19
    From: Oxnard, Ca.
    Quote:

    Stevo wrote:

    I really dont understand all the fuzz and hate. It's a well known fact that that Hyperion (Ben Hermans and lesser gods) was/where and is/are capable to develop OS4 without any "help" of Amiga Inc. It made OS4 what it is today. OS4 is here to stay and no "Amiga" trademark suits will ever stop the momentum. Who cares about the whole "Amiga" name anyway?





    Lol, Hyperion has nothing to do with OS4.1 and where it is today. Near ALL driver support and the look of it are done by 3rd party. The X5000 and A1222 are still not complete, and the 1222 isnt being sold because of the slow ass pace of them! Its a sad stupid proof of incompetence and the Amiga community seems to just stick to them and praise them, I dont get it.
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  • »19.01.18 - 12:17
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    stephen_robinson
    Posts: 742 from 2007/4/22
    Hmm, so what you just said was:

    Quote:

    Hyperion has nothing to do with OS4.1


    Quote:

    The Terrible state of OS4.1 is all due to Hyperion



    I find your lack of logic disturbing, Captain.
  • »21.01.18 - 13:08
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    Kronos
    Posts: 1783 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    stephen_robinson wrote:

    I find your lack of logic disturbing, Captain.


    On any other topic you might have a point, but this is about HYPErion/BunnyHormons so "logic" works in different ways.
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  • »21.01.18 - 14:35
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2504 from 2006/3/21
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    Quote:

    Acill wrote:
    Lol, Hyperion has nothing to do with OS4.1 and where it is today. Near ALL driver support and the look of it are done by 3rd party. The X5000 and A1222 are still not complete, and the 1222 isnt being sold because of the slow ass pace of them! Its a sad stupid proof of incompetence and the Amiga community seems to just stick to them and praise them, I dont get it.


    X5000 & A1222 drivers??? I'm still waiting for a working driver for my X1000 on board Ethernet adapter! In addition to the mythical AmigaOS4.2, that I strongly doubt will ever be completed "as described when the X1000 was first released, or when my particular X1000 was produced and sold to me". No one at Hyperion Entertainment, or working for/with them, appears to have the time/skill/knowledge, to finish all (or even most) of the features promised for inclusion as part of AmigaOS4.2. As much as I like Trevor and Matthew at A-Eon, I think they have a responsibility to complete a working driver for the X1000's on board Ethernet adapter, before moving on to their later motherboard designs.
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  • »21.01.18 - 23:49
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