LogTool provides a GUI if you need one. You can use Scout to kill offending tasks and free resources they are using.

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There is Dragon from AmigaZeux. The first real screen dragging for Neo Amigas.

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Details of internal memory management are not provided to the end users.

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There is one for 68k. It should work on MorphOS, too. Porting to MorphOS (if one wants native compile) should be matter of recompile.

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Nah.

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Currently available better webbrowsers dont support graphics (Links and Lynx).

@ itix

Dragon isn't part of MorphOS and IMO not very useful the last time I played with it. Why not hit the screen depth gadget instead, if screens can't be fixed to a position for proper referencing? Also it doesn't support drag&drop between screens.

Some of the things I listed I would like to see equally well implemented and integrated in MorphOS itself as done in AmigaOS4. An approach like everything can be done from the CLI, isn't what I want to see. I would like to see things conveniently implemented into the OS in a way even non-'power users' would enjoy the experience. IMO the less additional user effort required to setup a nice basic system, the more interesting the platform would become for commercial companies.

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Dragon2 fixes this problem. It also supports mixing different screen depths which is not afaik supported by OS4.

"Dragon2 fixes this problem. It also supports mixing different screen depths which is not afaik supported by OS4."

hi!

is it avaiable? if its not, then when? dragon is a wonderful toy, but dragon 2 will be also really useful then:) cant wait:)

") Cygnix GTK/X11 equivalent, so that joined efforts are possible with OS4 ported software (Gimp, etc) is simplyfied...

There is one for 68k. It should work on MorphOS, too. Porting to MorphOS (if one wants native compile) should be matter of recompile."

a native x11 would be better then an emulated 68k one, nah? btw are you telling that porting gimp for example is possible on mos 1.4.5 right now?

"Modern E-UAE/UAE with licensed classic ROM or (AROS?) reimplementation included.

Nah."

whatcha wanna say with that nah? a better uae is needed with fancy gui, like winuae. on an amiga-like system it is necessary i think and its a shame that none of current amiga oses hasnt got one. (dont tell me that euae works great with using shell. i dont care bout that. and lacks of jit is sux:)

about the grim reaper, yes, i think we need something similiar. remember mcp, when the guru happened its requester asked whatcha wanna do: reboot, kill the task and so on... i liked it so much! and crashes happens a lot of times in mos when you trying a lot of software (especially 68k ones). and its amiga-like elegancy:)

thanks:)

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It is not available and I dont know when it would be made available. In the end screendragging is only eyecandy without useful function.

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PPC native would be faster than 68k but many functions would run natively anyway.

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I dont know what kind of dependencies there are. Maybe, maybe not. I dont think there is much interest anyway.

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But this has nothing to do with the OS, does it? :) This is a job for 3rd party developers. JIT would be nice of course but not much to do about it...

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MorphOS does this all for you: if the program does something very bad (i.e. illegal instruction) it is stopped automatically. If it does something very very bad it stops your mouse pointer too

1.5 gives better visual response to program errors but it is still up to user to press Win-Win-Ctrl or stop program manually using Scout (what use when it trashed your system already?). Coders use debug logs for analysis and analysis dont get better with decorations.

What is annoying in 1.4.x is that important alerts (memory corruption) go unnoticed easily. Users dont get direct feedback when bad things happen.

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MCP still works in MorphOS. I dont know if this particular patch still works but you can try.



[ Edited by itix on 2006/10/30 16:30 ]

@ itix

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I entirely disagree. I think in combination with drag & drop it is a very useful feature indeed, surely beyond just providing "eyecandy". If you get used to this I think you will do your work quicker and Amigans would start to love this feature.

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Within the AmigaOS4 community there is. It works quite fast too, only people are still working on giving the X11 environment more of an AmigaOS4 appearance.

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I think most people would prefer using the native OS JIT engine instead (such as OS4 Petunia) if possible. IMO it's more important right now to have those games dependent on the classic chipsets run as transparent as possible. UAE-E for AmigaOS4 as demonstrated at AmiWest already seems to do a good job at emulating CD32 games.

MikeB,

4) As said, debug facilities in morphos are there since years, can be hooked to a gui if needed (logtool or anything else), and most importantly, provides useful information to a *developer*, which is what it's meant for. There's nothing wrong with a simplified feedback to user of course.

5) Unless you want half-assed memory protection or 0% compatibility, don't expect to have memory protection, be it in os4 or morphos (abox). Besides, it's funny to see how talks about some memory allocation algorithm optimization that won't be even noticed by a standard user are so praised in OS4 community. I would have thought users had different expectations, really.

6) It's really sad to see people focusing on X11 lame ports. X11 server/libs and applications like Gimp & co are merely boring recompilations. It just shows how small and untalented amigaos(-like) developer pool has become.

8) MorphOS UAE port is the same as OS4 one, except it has optional overlay support.

@ Fab

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I would go as far as to say that's desirable.

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AmigaOS4 developers can already develop their software with having future MP in mind. I think that's good as IMO to be taken serious in some market segments this is crucial.

I don't think it would be bad to have optional MP, allowing you to disable this when required. Maybe there will be a good way to mix both world without having to fully rely on an AmigaOS4 (w/o MP) running inside an AmigaOS4.x (w MP enabled). We will have to see about that, people can be creative to come up with solutions to problems.

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If it runs fast then why not? The systems are fundamentally very different, so if by clicking a depth button (a la AmigaOS XL/QNX) you switch between OS4 native and X11 environments, I don't see much of a problem. Just viable oppertunites.

I also don't think that using Remote Desktop over a LAN with OS4 is bad. I already own a Windows PC, so why not?

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The author demonstrated the current E-UAE beta on AmigaOS4.

>AmigaOS4 developers can already develop their software with having future MP in mind.

One call that PR, other just call it cow-droppings.....

Once and for all, the Amiga-API and REAL MP arr fundamentaly incompatible !!

Sure one could run somesort of Enforcer-on-steroids and throw away 99% of all "legacy-SW", but if that the goal, why stick with the Amiga-API at all ? Why not just develop a clean new API with full/real MP ? Why not sand-box all that legacy stuff

"Simplified user feedback" can be a sharp tool as it would allow "simplified users" to give feedback I'm quite happy with the fact that only other developers and experienced user can bombard me with logs instead of every nob that just has a misconfigured systems (and refuses to accept that).

And if I want to run X I'll just run X ....

A X-server would either suck real bad or stop developers from going the full mileage (read doing a real port).
Probraly both

UAE is for running games, and the MOS-port does that o.k. (and if you know where to find those games, you also know where to find the ROMs).

[ Edited by Kronos on 2006/10/30 18:02 ]

@ Kronos

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Because many features offered by AmigaOS are very nice and the API can be greatly enhanced and be made more secure without breaking compatibility. Interesting is to know that many people seem to prefer an AmigaOS API with MP over compatibility if it comes to that:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15945&forum=14&poll_id=228

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There are legal ways to get classic Amiga games and there are legal ways to acquire the system ROMs.

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I think we can remain compatibility, and have memory protection. I think that an abstraction layer for the non-MP-compatible software, should be enough. The system, can make them think they have full access to the memory, and let them use a sandboxed scope of memory. If the software is well done, it should work with little problem.

Finally, you could have a "compatibility mode" at your own risk, in which the program could have kernel memory access permissions to some parts of the memory, as a final resort.

I see MP as a neccesary feature in an actual OS.

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What has changed with MOS1.5 on this particular point ?

Leo.

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MorphOS does not *depend* on AmigaOS, you can run it completely without Amiga components.

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The native TCP/IP stack was publically demoed years ago already. It's there. Only question is when it will be released to the public.

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A completely worthless "gimmick". A fun thing that some retro-fans might appreciate, but certainly not a feature even qualifying for a top 10 list.

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It's there, and have been there for ages.

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As you may know, full MP in an Amiga envireonment can't be done. It will break the Amiga compatibility. The only clean way of achieving some kind of MP is boxing the Amiga envireonment the way MorphOS already does.

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Why on earth would anyone want to port MorphOS to Playstation?

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I don't think this should be included. It would mean that everyone would have to pay for something that only some people are interested in. Better having these kind of things as an option, like it is today.

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Just two more weeks ...

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Well, this seems to be the only point I agree with ...

@MikeB

Determing technical facst by count of head ???

You can't have THE Amiga-API running under MP, you can have an Amigalike API running under MP, but than it's also nothing stopping you from running the REAL-Amiga-API sandboxed next to the new API.

@amiades

Stupid idea (hmm reminds me of MultiTOS), cos "Amiga" is heavily based on apps communicationg with each other (and the OS) by pointer and structs (pointer in structs referecnced by a pointer found in another struct......). Trying a "deep-copy"-approach is also impraticble as one never knows how deep to copy, or wether to copy at all (when it's not clear from the outside what in a struct).

You'll end up with something like running several instances of UAE, one for each app (hmmm now I know why it reminded me of MultiTOS),

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User gets feedback when program throws an alert.

uhmm ...

1. Altivec support.
2. SMP support.
3. Memmory Protection support.
4. Multi-User support.
5. Faster/more secure File System support.

@Kronos

If Microsoft could, amiga can. We can't say it is impossible, until we have tried.

It's easy to say something is impracticable, and refer to the trouble it produces, but that is not the amiga style. The amiga style, is having trouble, and finding almost incredibly elegant solutions.

The system can manage a memory protection system, and a comunication between aplications wrapper, to map the ilegal attemps, or something like that.

I can keep saying stupid ideas all the day, but that is because I have very little knowledge about amiga internals. A brainstorm between smart people, would probably give some solution to keep compatibility, and provide MP.

amiades,

at first, a hut can be a nice house, light and all, but years after you may notice it's too small for your needs, not very robust. Sure you can extend it and try to make it more resistant, but it will never be a real house, whatever you do.

Guess what, in software development, original design (fundations) often determines what's possible and what's not in the future. AmigaOS wasn't designed for memory protection, and anything you do to add it will just be a bad hack (except a sandbox approach, where everything is seamlessly integrated). Sorry to spoil your wet dreams. :)

[ Edited by Fab on 2006/10/31 15:14 ]

amiades: What can be done, is to stuff all the old Amiga programs into a 'box'. This box runs as a program inside a protected environment. The apps inside the box can crash everything else inside the box, but not the rest of the system.

This is what Apple did, and it is also what MorphOS is doing with the ABox. The only 'problem' here is that currently there isn't really much anything (except the debug output I guess) that happens outside the ABox, so in practice crashing the box means crashing almost the entire OS.

Migrating towards a more protected system means offering more features outside the box, not cramming useless APIs inside the box, that can never have the intended effect anyway.

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You mean like CGX/P96 hacking&patching GFX.lib (and still only getting partial compability) ? Or AHI completly replacing audio.device with an incompatible API (and then allowing Paula to be accesed with that new API) ? Actually thats quite close to a sandbox-approach.

Or maybe all those klungy filrequesters available for AOS1.x ? Or later the hord of GUI-toolkits ?

And don't get me started on Amiga-HW-expansions being "elegant"....

@ Kronos

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IMO an improved AmigaOS based on AmigaOS4 source code and officially branded AmigaOS is still AmigaOS.

IMO even MacOS X is still MacOS, albeit heavily improved and founded on top of an entirely different kernel (like currently MorphOS does). MacOS X is based on older MacOS releases and is branded MacOS, so IMO it's an improved version of the old MacOS. API changes are required for a platform to move forward at some point.

@MikeB
> ..... THE_NAME ..... brand ... TEH NAME !!!! ...... bla ..... bla ....

And what has this to with the topic at hand ?

For REAL MP to work there needs to be some drastic changes in the API, completly breaking compability. So if you have to change things around, why base your work on stuff you are actually working to replace ? Why not start from a new plate, and just leave the old stuff boxed (just like Apple did) ? Does it really matter wether that new part is named "Amiga" or "Quark_mit_K?se" ? If it does for you, your better of finding someone to sell you a shrinkwrapped copy of the Party-Pack

@ Kronos

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I don't know, you brought it up.

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Maybe.

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Apple used classic MacOS source code to make MacOS X. Just like QNX used QNX4 source code to create QNX Neutrino based QNX RTOS.

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Yes, branding is important from any commercial companiy's point of view.

You can complain to Microsoft about calling Windows 3.x, Win95, WinXP 'Windows'.

You can complain to Apple about calling classic MacOS and MacOS X 'MacOS'.

You can complaint to QNX about calling QNX4 and the current version of QNX "QNX RTOS".

But I think none of them will listen...

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Apple doesnt call OSX as MacOS. Mac users dont even think OSX has anything to do with MacOS. It is entirely new OS.

The same could be said for MorphOS and it is not necessarily bad to say so.