>> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&start=551

> http://www.extremetech.com/computing/181867-amds-project-skybridge-new-arm-and-x86-chips-that-are-pin-compatible

Yes, this is what my link was about.

Quote:

Our niche would go grazy if someone did that with PowerPC.

(getting board from local x86 shop + plug compatible PPC on it)


Anyway, very nice move for AMD as their sales might be crashing.
http://www.techonlineindia.com/IMG/121/17121/bulletin20140429fig01.png
(but perhaps also console sales come to rescue this year)

[ Edited by KimmoK 27.06.2014 - 08:10 ]

> does MIPS laptop exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson#Loongson-based_systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Netbook_computers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdium

> Could you show a link to MIPS desktops? It's new to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson#Loongson-based_systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Desktop_computers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Fuloong_2_series_of_small_desktop_computers

> Does MIPS nowdays have SIMD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMX
http://imgtec.com/mips/architectures/simd/
http://www.linleygroup.com/newsletters/newsletter_detail.php?num=4918
http://www.google.com/search?q=loongsimd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Extension_Unit

> How about SPARC?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Instruction_Set
http://www.google.com/search?q=simd+%22hpc-ace%22

> What's the state of RadeonHD or Nvidia support on those?

I guess that's more a question of operating system support than of CPU ISA.


Edit: added LoongSIMD
Edit2: added MXU

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 12.01.2016 - 11:43 ]

Quote:

And yet it moves. Sorry, Discworld reference... And yet, all but the entire digital consumer world runs on x86. Maybe if I refine my question - unless you're programming in assembly, what difference does it make? On that note, ppc assembly isn't as scary as some people pretend it to be.

Despite that, there is one MIPS-like cpu / project that I attempt to keep on my radar and that's OpenRISC. http://opencores.org/or1k/Main_Page

> Our niche would go grazy if someone did that with PowerPC. ;-)
> (getting board from local x86 shop + plug compatible PPC on it)

That's probably not how Skybridge will work:

"I don't expect we'll see standard socketed desktop boards that are compatible with both ARM and x86 SoCs, but a pin compatible design will have some benefits for embedded, BGA solutions."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7989/amd-announces-project-skybridge-pincompatible-arm-and-x86-socs-in-2015

> Same for active SPARC64 desktops. Link?

Not active, sadly, but newer and more powerful that the PowerPC systems of MorphOS, hell yes!

Sun built them until 2008 and my Ultra 5 from 2001 is still a helluva workhorse. MorphOS on SPARC would be interesting if unlikely. As far as I know the SPARC architecture shares a lot of the benefits the PowerPC architecture.

> I've been sure that PowerPC is the biggest desktop after x86/x64.

Moreorless, PowerPC is dead on the workstation/desktop front. I don't see much development from it these days. China is chugging along with MIPS production though. Plus moving to MIPS would grant us access to an abundance of cheap hardware.

> I guess that's more a question of operating system support than of CPU ISA.

Andreas speaks the truth here. It has NOTHING to do with the CPU ISA, this is all handled by the OS.

I like PowerPC, but I fear for its future as a suitable ISA. Moving to MIPS brings a lot of benefits that ARM doesn't have like I said.

I think it would be delightful if MorphOS would run on a MIPS computer.

Also, MIPS computers seem to have Linux by default. If there was an official MorphOS MIPS computer, "MorphOne Z10000" would make sense, and also it would help us overthrow the evil Linux.

[ Edited by In_Correct 27.06.2014 - 09:16 ]

> more powerful that the PowerPC systems of MorphOS, hell yes!

1.6 GHz Ultra 45 is faster than 2.7 GHz PowerMac G5?

> Moving to MIPS brings a lot of benefits that ARM doesn't have

One advantage of MIPS over ARMv7+ I can think of is big endian byte order for both code and data, unless it's a pure little endian MIPS implementation (like e.g. XBurst, Loongson, BCM47xx).

> 1.6 GHz Ultra 45 is faster than 2.7 GHz PowerMac G5?

For a lot of calculations, yes. SPARC tends to do very well for general computing, but as a result their CPUS are not optimized for games - they're designed to run for years at a time, non-stop doing general computing.

> Also, MIPS computers seem to have Linux by default. If there was an official MorphOS MIPS computer, "MorphOne Z10000" would make sense, and also it would help us overthrow the evil Linux.

Yeah the only reason why I have not gotten a Loongson is because BSD support on them is iffy at best. I don't use or support GNU/Linux. That being said if Genesi or some other company built an official MorphOS machine that would be awesome. And since I mentioned it do us a favour and don't call BSD evil or a form of GNU/Linux as thats not correct - GNU/Linux is a workalike of UNIX that is about as UNIXy as Richard Stallman is sexy.

>>> more powerful that the PowerPC systems of MorphOS, hell yes!

>> 1.6 GHz Ultra 45 is faster than 2.7 GHz PowerMac G5?

> For a lot of calculations, yes.

Okay, this reads a little different than your previous broad-brush statement :-)

> if Genesi or some other company built an official MorphOS machine that would
> be awesome.

They did, several times, but with PPC :-)

> They did, several times, but with PPC

I know. I mean now they don't

> Okay, this reads a little different than your previous broad-brush statement

Most of my posts are when I'm either:

A: Sleep deprived
B: Drunken
C: Enthusiastic to the point of mania

In other words - its totally normal. (^o^)

> whether it was two pin compatible designs or one chip with both ISAs.

While AMD SkyBridge is going to implement the former idea, the latter idea may be tackled by another contender according to rumours:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/185888-vias-new-isaiah-x86arm-hybrid-cpu-outperforms-intel-in-benchmarks-but-will-it-ever-come-to-market

Neat approach.
Considering AMD's X64 is RISC at its core I am surprised that they are not using a similar approach.

I don't know if speculating again such or such choice is a good idea.
Definetly i think that Morphos developpers aren't working on an architecture move, they need an hardware partner to
have a documented hardware to work on.
In fact the processor's choice is not the main problem, hardware support is the main problem.
Most of Arm or Pc gpu are not documented....sadly

Quote:

DIdn't they announce they were working on something?

Quote:

Well they've done a pretty good job with Macs.

IIRC Some of the hardware is fairly well documented. Samsung used to have their hardware reference manuals on line. You might still be able to get them.

IIRC Allwinner are also considered to be open source friendly.

>> Definetly i think that Morphos developpers aren't working on an architecture move

> DIdn't they announce they were working on something?

No. The most substantial "something" they "announced" in this regard was 3 years ago, but they didn't say they were already working on it. They hadn't even decided for the target architecture yet.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8121&forum=9&start=18

> Samsung used to have their hardware reference manuals on line. You might still be able
> to get them.

Yes, they have them publicly available mostly, even for an Exynos 5 chip:

http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/file/product/Exynos_5_Dual_User_Manaul_Public_REV100-0.pdf

> IIRC Allwinner are also considered to be open source friendly.

Allwinner SoCs use Cortex-A8, Cortex-A7 or Cortex-A15, of which only the last one would be worth supporting in my opinion. Unfortunately, Allwinner SoCs with Cortex-A15 CPU core use PowerVR GPU, for which documentation is said to be hard to come by for non-corporate developers.

In fact they have annouced an architecture switch, but for them it's not simple, such a project is a big amount of work.
For the moment they want to finish and also prepare the operating system coponents for a switch. Many sources must be modified.
An hardware partner could be interesting..., some devellopers are thinking that morphos could be hosted transparently by linux in order to gain an impressive amount of work.




[ Edited by acepeg 15.07.2014 - 18:17 ]

@acapeg

I don't. I don't want MorphOS to make it more linux like/linux friendly to save some work or get some software. I think MorphOS would lose it's appeal.

Quote:

+1

And I really think you are in safe harbor in this regard Yasu, concerning the previously expressed views of the MorphOS Team on this issue!

The MorphOS Team is making *Their Own* OS!

A little bit topic related.
It seems ARM compiled SW is still growing it's share on mobile devices.
Intel must fight back even harder as they need to emulate ARM to run Android apps.
http://www.pcper.com/category/tags/clover-trail

A linux kernel can be like quark, quite invisible for users, just like amithlon for example. Linux is not an enemy in fact.
Be sure that morphos will not be a linux distro. But why ditch a such a possibility ?
With the apport of virtualisation technology like on last Arm or X64 we can do many things...

Linux is an enemy. If MorphOS had a Linux kernel, I would not be here and I certainly would not pay registration for Linux.

Addendum:

> It seems the development agreement between Applied Micro and Veloce has been
> covering not only the ARMv8 X-Gene processor but also a PowerPC processor:
> "This Development Agreement [...] is entered into as of May 17, 2009 [...] by and between
> Applied Micro Circuits Corporation [...] ("AMCC") and Veloce Technologies, Inc. [...]("Company").
> [...] WHEREAS, the Parties desire for Company to develop for AMCC one or more
> PowerPC processors that meet certain specifications provided in the Merger Agreement
> [...]. [...] "Project" means the development of a PowerPC processor as described in
> Section 2.1. [...] 2.1 Project. Company will use diligent efforts to develop a
> 40 nm PowerPC processor module as further described in Exhibit A, which meets the
> specifications and the requirements provided in the Merger Agreement (as such
> specifications and requirements may be amended from time to time in accordance with
> the terms hereof, the "Design Requirements"). The Company will meet all of the
> milestones provided in Exhibit B (the "Milestones") by the applicable due dates
> specified therein. [...] 2.10 Technology Review and Project Materials. Company and AMCC
> will meet periodically, but no less than quarterly, to discuss the status of the Project,
> including the status of Milestones and to jointly perform technical review of the
> PowerPC processor in development."
> http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/711065/000119312512237264/d238010dex1066.htm
> http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/711065/000119312512449811/d431089dex1066.htm
>
> Unfortunately, the exhibits have been omitted due to confidentiality.
> Maybe this is linked to "Viper":
> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=444
> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=453
> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=612
> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=655

More on that:

"we started five to six years ago with Power PC and did a 64-bit chip then decided that ARM was the way to go."
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/components/microprocessors-and-dsps/applied-micros-x-gene-challenges-server-processor-market-2014-08/

Mos proceeds well.
Devs will obviously choose the best when the time will come.
I think the best is actually still x64-x86: Cheap warhorse, expandable by a kid, easy to assemble as your main computer and as easy to change it with a new one in your mainstream computer shop. What other hw platform can give mos better days?
You can choose a restricted hw platform Too and decide it to be the target mos machine with a Little internal hw market to be born.
Arm is a nice niche, but one thing is to buy the latest smartphone with its totally working stuff, another thing is to buy a pandaboard (or similar ware) on an internet only shop with hobbist micro boxes and to try to develop for it with a very Limited documentation. That is wonderful if you have a good dose of smoke to sell. But mos isn't smoke: Mos has good potential. Let's think pro.
Obviously this is only my p.o.v.. :)