> Star Trek for OSX

Project Star Trek was for System 7.

>Andreas_Wolf
> I could believe that a good 30% of AmigaOS4.x users are potential
> MorphOS users...
I always wanted to run MorphOS on my A1 just to see what it was like. I seems cheaper to pursue MorphOS on Apple than chase OS4x on the new X1000. I hope some day in the future I can see it for myself...

Snuffy,
Quote:

It is very, very easy for you to see "it" for your self. Download the ISO of MorphOS2.7 that works for the all the G4 MacMini's, 1.25GHz & 1.42GHz G4 eMac's, and most of the G4 PowerMac's (as long as they have a Radeon video card) and burn that ISO to a CD. Then find a friend, family member, or thrift shop that has one of those supported Mac computers. If it is a family member, or friend, just ask them if you can use their computer for an hour or so and pop the CD in and hold down the "Alt"/ "Option" key while it is booting up. It should take you to a screen that shows the Mac hard drive and the MorphOS2.7 CD as the two boot options. Click on the CD after the wait for the Open Firmware looking for all available boot devices has stopped, and then click on the continue arrow and MorphOS2.7 will boot from the CD and the installation Wizard will auto-start. If you are borrowing a computer that you can't mess with the hard drive and do an installation, then just quit the Install Wizard and you can explore MorphOS2.7 from the CD. It will run slower when it has to read all files from the CD instead of a hard drive, but you will be able to look at most of MorphOS2.7 and run the excellent Odyssey web browser. It won't be the latest version and you won't be able to save any changes to any of the default configurations, or settings, so you won't be able to set up any of the optional scripts for Odyssey, while running from the CD, because you can't save any changes to the write protected CD.

Running the demo version of MorphOS2.7 from the CD is not an ideal way to experience MorphOS, but it can give you an idea of what it looks like in it's default form. I personally think that any OS4.x user that wants to look at MorphOS2.7 should find a Mac that they can install MorphOS2.7 on the hard drive, so they can tweak the settings and find out how much they can adjust the look and feel of MorphOS2.7, to make it more like the OS4.x system that they are used to. If they import some items, such as backdrops and icon sets from OS4.x, they can make it look and feel much more like OS4.x that they are used to, and this might make the rest of the MorphOS2.7 features easier to notice, when they are not so distracted by the default look and feel of MorphOS2.7, which is very different than OS4.x.

There is really no excuse for not trying out MorphOS2.7 for yourself. It is so very easy to download, burn and run MorphOS2.7. And it supports so many millions of used hardware, I am sure everyone, everywhere, can find at least one supported Mac model, at a very low price, or even free, to buy, or borrow, so they can try out MorphOS2.7 for themselves.

Good luck in finding a supported Mac model for yourself, that you can buy or borrow.

[ Edited by amigadave 14.03.2012 - 13:28 ]

> as long as they have a Radeon video card

...or a Rage 128 one.

https://www.power.org/events/PowerWebinar-03-15-12

     AltiVec Unleashed —

      Bringing 
Unprecedented Performance Levels 
to Signal Processing 


Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

Or a Voodoo4 or 5 (those ought to work too).

>>> as long as they have a Radeon video card

>>...or a Rage 128 one.

> Or a Voodoo4 or 5 (those ought to work too).

Yes, thanks for addition. I just think that Radeon and Rage 128 are way more relevant as no PowerMac G4 was originally sold by Apple with a Voodoo card.

I'm not sure why I find the Voodoo cards appealing. They don't offer any advantages over the Rage128 (and I've had a few high end Rage 128 cards), but it is an option.

> Voodoo cards [...] don't offer any advantages over the Rage128

With MorphOS they do, namely 3D support.

> https://www.power.org/events/PowerWebinar-03-15-12

Some information by billt, who has watched the seminar:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35367&forum=2#657483

Jim,
Quote:

But I don't think any G4 PowerMac's came with a Voodoo video card from Apple. I was referring to stock configurations that people might find, but I should have included the Rage128 card(s) that came in some of the early G4 PowerMac's.

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

Sheets are also available, stream is still online.

True David.
But some of us already have them.
The PC variants will work in a Peg and the Mac PCI variants work fine in G4s (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the PC PCI variants also work under MorphOS).
And the AGP PC version of the 4500 has been successfully flashed with the Mac bios, so an AGP Voodoo4 4500 is possible.

AND, unlike the Rage128 or the Radeon R300 cards, Voodoo cards have support for 3D acceleration.

> I wouldn't be surprised if the PC PCI variants also work under MorphOS

According to several MorphOS Team members, they do:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6893&start=21
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6893&start=27

> unlike the Rage128 or the Radeon R300 cards, Voodoo cards have support
> for 3D acceleration.

Most of the G4 PowerMacs with Radeon card came with R100/R200, not R300 ;-)

>Most of the G4 PowerMacs with Radeon card came with R100/R200, not R300

True Andreas. And I wouldn't knock them as I've had a few of the better Rage128 based cards.
But obviously I'm not committed to using whatever came with my Powermac.
My processor, memory, hard drive, DVD drive, video card, sound card, USB card, network card, and SCSI controller are all non-Apple products.



[ Edited by Jim 16.03.2012 - 16:53 ]

> I'm not committed to using whatever came with my Powermac.

Yes, I know that. But I guess that most G4 PowerMacs with MorphOS-compatible graphics card that Snuffy will stumble upon when looking for a machine for MorphOS will still contain whatever graphics card it originally came with. Mac users at large aren't exactly known for fiddling with their hardware ;-)

> My processor, memory, hard drive, DVD drive, video card, sound card,
> USB card, network card, and SCSI controller are all non-Apple products.

It's not about Apple product or non-Apple product but about whether it originally came with it. Even with stock Apple machines, memory, hard drive and DVD drive were never from Apple but from 3rd party suppliers. I'm not even sure if Apple has ever manufactured its own graphics cards for the PowerMacs.

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

I guess, when it comes right down to it, they don't manufacture anything.
What they don't buy outright from other vendors, they contract companies like Foxconn to build.

My last "oem" Apple G4 processor was manufactured in Taiwan.

What I meant was, I don't feel obligated to buy "genuine" Apple components.
And my Quicksilver didn't come with many of the components I've mentioned.

Also, as MorphOS users, I'd hope we're more adventurous when it comes to modifying our hardware.

BTW - I just re-flashed AmigaDave's Radeon 8500 with the 128k oem Mac rom. Works great! Pity we can't get past the 64MB VEAM limitation of the Apple bios though.

>> I'm not even sure if Apple has ever manufactured its own graphics
>> cards for the PowerMacs.

> I guess, when it comes right down to it, they don't manufacture anything.

Okay, I was sloppy with my wording. What I really meant to say is: I'm not even sure if Apple has ever *designed/developed* its own graphics cards for the PowerMacs. That's also what I was referring to regarding the Mac's memory, hard drive and DVD drive, which are not only not manufactured by Apple but also not designed/developed by Apple.

> What I meant was, I don't feel obligated to buy "genuine" Apple components.

And I know that very well. It's just that the discussion was about what MorphOS-compatible graphics cards *Snuffy* is likely to find in a G4 PowerMac. That's why we (that is, amigadave and me) agreed to add the ("genuine" Apple) Rage 128 to the ("genuine" Apple) R100/R200 Radeons, but not the Voodoos and also not the ("genuine" Apple) R300 Radeons (although the Radeon 9700 was a BTO option for the FW800 PowerMac).

> as MorphOS users, I'd hope we're more adventurous when it comes
> to modifying our hardware.

Of course we are, no doubt about that :-) But that will have no affect on what Snuffy will find, should he attempt to buy a PowerMac from a non-MorphOS user.

@Andreas_Wolf & Jim,

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
Quote:

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make by excluding the supported VooDoo cards, as these replies were aimed at Snuffy and his possible search for a compatible G4 PowerMac and what video cards most likely he would find inside of them that might be compatible.

@Andreas_Wolf,

I was not aware of the BTO option of the Radeon 9700 in the FW800 G4 PowerMac's. Was it the regular 9700, or a 9700Pro that was offered as the BTO option?

The reason I ask, is because Jim is having trouble re-flashing my 9700Pro for use in the G4 PowerMac and he has already tried 2 or 3 different 9700 bios files.

Quote:

@Jim,

Yes, we as MorphOS users are much more likely to modify our G4 PowerMac's, than a Mac user. But there are some adventurous Mac users on the LowEndMac G3-G5 mailing list that have experience in tinkering with their Mac hardware. I guess anyone who keeps trying to use hardware that is as old as any of the G3 to G5 computers are, would have to be willing to do a little tinkering with it, just to keep it working as well as possible, no matter what operating system they choose to use.

The older a G4 PowerMac is, that has been continually used by any MacOS users, the more likely that it might have been modified in some way, including choosing to use a faster video card that also has more VRAM. So, if Snuffy finds a G4 PowerMac that is still in active use, opposed to getting one that has been stored away in someone's closet, the higher the chances become that it may not have the stock video card in it. But in general, most MacOS users do not tinker with their hardware, so I would not say that the chances are "high" that any of the G4 components are changed by the MacOS user, but the chances are higher than close to zero, which is what the percentage would have been years ago, when MacOS users were less likely to modify their hardware, other than using the BTO options that Apple offered when those models were new.

[ Edited by amigadave 16.03.2012 - 13:22 ]

> I was not aware of the BTO option of the Radeon 9700 in the
> FW800 G4 PowerMac's. Was it the regular 9700, or a 9700Pro
> that was offered as the BTO option?

According to the following web resources, it was the 'Pro' version:

http://support.apple.com/kb/SP54
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G4#DDR_models
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/stats/powermac_g4_1.0_mdd.html
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/stats/powermac_g4_1.25_dp_mdd_fw800.html
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/stats/powermac_g4_1.42_dp_mdd.html

I tried the oem Apple bios files for the 9700Pro and non-pro models as well as reduced versions of these files.
I think the problem may be related to the card being an All In Wonder model.
But I have seen threads mentioning success with these as well.
I just haven't found a reference to a specific bios yet.

And, yes, I would agree that pointing out which oem cards work with MorphOS makes sense. I'd hate to see a newbee buy a G4 with an Nvidia video card inside.

Jim,
Quote:

Well, now that you have successfully re-flashed my Radeon 8500 video card for me, any newbies that buy a G4 PowerMac with an Nvidia video card in it by mistake, or intentionally because the price was very low, they can buy my Radeon 9000Pro 64mb VRAM video card to replace their Nvidia video card and make their G4 PowerMac MorphOS compatible.

Thanks for your re-flashing work Jim and for your video card expertise and advice.

I wish it was my expertise David.
I'm just fumbling along relying on the past work of others.
And your 8500 was easy. I'll do those for those on Morphzone that wants to convert an 8500 PC card (or a 9100).
Its the 9200s that are harder (it has to follow the standard board layout and a SMT resistor has to be removed or eliminated).
Most Radeon 9700 and 9800s are also easily modified (except for the All-In-Wonder variants).
I would NOT recommend the 9600s as a candidate for flashing as they often yield poor display results (and genuine apple 9600s are fairly common).

Further, if you want something out of the ordinary, PC AGP Voodoo4 4500s can be flashed with the Mac PCI bios. While this would be slightly slower, have less memory, and definitely cost more then a Radeon 9200, there something appealing about using unusual hardware like this.

Currently, I'm working with David and some other individual on R400 cards. These are more complicated, but we are having some success flashing these for OSX and Linux.

Update:

>> I bet we don't get a solid answer about this for a year or more.

> First solid information on POWER7 preceded its official release by
> 1.5 years. Going by that, 1 year from now plus 1.5 more years would
> mean early 2014 for POWER8 release. But as we know that POWER8 is
> scheduled for 2013 (and rather early than late that year), solid
> information may be imminent ;-)

Now, 8 months later, still no more technical details on POWER8 available to the general public. And it seems its release has been re-scheduled to "early 2014":

http://www.common-romandie.ch/files/pre_2011_11_16_2_power_platform_executive_northeas.pdf (November 2011, page 6)

And the first (to my knowledge) mention of POWER9 by IBM, scheduled for the 2016 to 2020 time frame:

http://projects.csail.mit.edu/caos/2012-01-25-caos-bgq-v1-ed.pdf (January 2012, page 6)

Well, Jim, don't be too modest. You are building your expertise by working on so many different video cards and doing all the research you have done. You are definitely an expert compared to me, and I appreciate your help and advice.

This thread sure has gone way off topic. There must be half a dozen or more unrelated topics within this thread, but no one seems to be complaining, so I won't start. All of the information is useful and interesting to me.