Since 3.0, tinyl.library is not anymore using rave3d.library.
Instead, tinygl got its own dedicated driver system allowing much superior performances and features.
3.0 came with a r200 driver for tinygl.
3.2 added a r300 driver to tinygl.

This also means MorphOS runs two 3D driver systems simultaneously, side by side on the very same r200 hardware. Which is technically quite impressive IMHO :-)

rave3d.library (which always was a private library) and its drivers aren't developed anymore (even though sometimes some bugfix is made, as you can see in the changelogs)
No r300 driver will be written for rave3d which can be considered as some legacy component.

It's true warp3d(ppc).library was built around rave3d.library during the previous century and so doesn't benefit from tinygl's r300 driver.
But this is definitively not a bug. And this is not done for the purpose to break w3d. This is to be considered as a side effect of stepping forward in the 3d area :-p

So, for now, there is no way to run warp3d crap stuff on r300. It remains to be seen if somebody will one day write some rave3d.library driver using tinygl. Or will modify warp3d(ppc).library to use tinygl.library. Technically both are possible. But today none exists.

i would love to play some old PPC Games on MorphOS. Heretic II is still pretty impressive and a really good game. WipeOut is another good game.

Henes,
Quote:

Software rendered 68k Wazp3D.library perhaps?

http://aminet.net/package/driver/video/Wazp3D

edit - Nope, just tried running the Cow3D demo from aminet and it doesn't work with the 68k Wazp3D (Nor the OS4 Wazp3D library via OS4Emu), a message box pops up saying "Goa3D graphic - No available Rave 3D driver."

:(

[ Edited by Intuition 30.05.2013 - 22:50 ]

Quote:

While i perfectly understand the need to move forward at the cost of loosing some compatibility with older stuff, i still regret it. There is not much 3D stuff available for morphOS appart from games and the morphOS 3D hardware accelerated demoscene is so poor that it is sad to loose most of it (even if these demos were originally coded for PPC amigas). But well, time to move on i guess.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the clear explanation Henes.

edit : typos


[ Edited by SoundSquare 30.05.2013 - 23:50 ]

I need to add that all the systems which could previously run w3d stuff... can still run them with MorphOS 3.0 and up. Nothing was removed and warp3d(ppc).library, rave3d.library etc are still there and work on voodoo3/4/5, radeon r100, r200 as previously...

Also, again, nothing prevents some w3d -> tinygl bridge to be written in the future. It just has not happened yet.


@SS
I still owe you some cake ;-)

> just tried running the Cow3D demo from aminet and it doesn't work
> with the 68k Wazp3D [...], a message box pops up saying "Goa3D
> graphic - No available Rave 3D driver."

For installation, the Wazp3D readme instructs to do:

"Rename existing LIBS:Warp3D.library to LIBS:Warp3D.library-save
[...]
copy Wazp3D.library-full TO LIBS:Warp3D.library"

Did you do exactly that?

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

I had to rename mossys:libs/Warp3D.library and then it worked.

It is very slow as I expected though.

edit - I tried the WipeOut 2097 demo and it fails due to not having a working Warp3DPPC.library.

[ Edited by Intuition 30.05.2013 - 23:56 ]

> I tried the WipeOut 2097 demo and it fails due to not having a working Warp3DPPC.library.

Have you tried duplicating SYS:Libs/Warp3D.library (former Wazp3D.library-full) as SYS:Libs/Warp3DPPC.library and renaming MOSSYS:Libs/Warp3DPPC.library?

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

Yes, it complains that Warp3DPPC Library V2 cannot be opened.

Quote:

hehe, let's meet one of these days, it's been a while. I love pudding

Quote:

Unfortunately it doesnt work like that because there are more differences than just a name.

> Unfortunately it doesnt work like that because there are more differences
> than just a name.

Pity. Would have been too easy, admittedly ;-) So is it correct to assume that you see no way a MorphOS end user can use current Wazp3D to make popular Warp3D programs run with R300?

It probably wouldnt take much effort create wazp3dppc.library from Wazp3D source code. Bigger problem is probably slow software rendering and poor compatibility with the existing Warp3D software.

Those could be solved if someone took the ball, though :)

Edit: it looks like Wzp3D could use TinyGL (?)
"Hardware OpenGL(Mesa) can be used in AROS"

http://thellier.free.fr/Wazp3D.htm

To me it is completely alien stuff...

[ Edited by itix 31.05.2013 - 13:24 ]

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

68k Warp3D programs work with Wazp3D software rendering on R300 (But extremely slowly) but WarpOS PPC programs don't.

I could have a go at modifying Wazp3D to use TinyGL.library but its all foreign to me so I probably wouldn't get very far without a great deal of time and help.

I might have a look to see how complicated it would be on Saturday night.

i'd love to see a r300 support of rave3d with the next release :)

> I might have a look to see how complicated it would be on Saturday night.

Another possible solution might have been proposed there:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37710&forum=46&start=100#708065

This driver requires original Warp3D to be installed.

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

I tryed this solution but it doesn't work realy. Shogo, Heretic II and WipeOut 2097 doesn't work.

Only things I could started were MenoBox and ImuBox.

[ Edited by serge 02.06.2013 - 23:51 ]

> It probably wouldnt take much effort create wazp3dppc.library from Wazp3D source code.
> [...]
> Edit: it looks like Wzp3D could use TinyGL (?)
> "Hardware OpenGL(Mesa) can be used in AROS"
> http://thellier.free.fr/Wazp3D.htm

Both points confirmed by the Wazp3D author:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37710&forum=46&start=100#708159

Quote:

Update from Alain Thellier:

Quote:

I'm interested in doing this, although I'm currently busy with RTTR. I'll contact Alain Thellier.

I'll admit, this was a disappointment I was not prepared for (after buying and converting several R300 cards for MorphOS use).
In fact, I've downgraded back to Radeon 9000Pro cards.
But if we could do this re-compilation, we wouldn't have to worry about similar problems with other video cards we might want to adopt in the future.
Current, the G5 PowerMac that we've just adopted could potentially handle R400 cards (so X800XTs are a possibility with a new driver).
And, PCIe G5s are ever supported, then R500 cards like the X1900GT are a possibility.

So...hopefully some ambitious individual will step up.

Just don't expect Frank or Mark to want to tackle it. They've both accomplished enough recently that they deserve nothing more than our kudos.
Which, btw, they definately have on my part.
Way to go guys. I'm really enjoying playing around with the iBook (I'll get around to a G5 eventually - probably after 3.3 is released).

[ Edited by Jim 20.06.2013 - 00:36 ]

As pointed by some others already, this is in no way a "downgrade", as no hardware with 3D support lost Warp3D support. R300 just didn't get any. Yet.

This is the first ever version with "any" 3D support on R300. I rather have OpenGL support now, rather than OpenGL and Warp3D support "perhaps later", if anyone bothers writing the latter.

And regarding R300 support, I'd rather have all OpenGL bugs fixed first before anyone bothers with Warp3D

I don't have any experience with it, but I don't think Warp3D is too complex. Of course there's the issue of "having to include all undocumented bugs", to get games that do wrong things work "correctly".

Of course Warp3D is a MUCH bigger issue on AmigaOS4, as their only OpenGL implementation (forgetting any software rendering only MESA compiles) depends on it.

Also, I might be able to do some "generic OpenGL code" for any3rd party library reimplementation.

[ Edited by Jupp3 20.06.2013 - 15:45 ]

Quote:

Thanks BSzilli!

PS - I miss the Steed avatar!

Waited a long while for MOS3.2 on the PB, to be honest it was a bit of a disappointment not to have the same MorphOS experience on the PB G4 as other MOS platforms...ie. pretty much full support of all Amiga hacks (incl. Warp3D.)

Those ancient games were pretty much the only eye candy fun stuff that's good to while away some time and make a fun demonstration. I guess GLquake still works?

I don't do anything particularly useful with my PBG4, it's simply nostalgia so it is what it is I guess...can't complain too much since I couldn't program my way out of a pair of brackets.

I believe we have access to much much more quality games using tinygl than warp3d.

If I have a quick look at my hd, I can see aquaria, chromium, foobilliard, fortis, freespace2, glhexen2, homeworld, neverball, various quake 1/2/3 ports, rrootage, return to castle wolfenstein, torcs, ufo alien invasion, virtual grand prix 2, xmoto etc...
So, even if warp3d stuff don't run on r300+ yet, there are probably many working 3d accelerated games to play today...