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It *IS* grossly unfair to blame marcik for something he has not done directly. The bounty terms are indeed quite clear, as Acill pointed out. As I said, I'd like to see it open source, but I understand his doubts and respect his decisions.
Indeed, if someone evangelized a MorphZone bounty elsewhere, that's not MorphZone or marcik's fault. There is already a multiplatform bounty set, with a much higher reward, and that's called Amizilla. Since marcik never got an answer from the Amizilla guys, I understand him twice.

Kind regards,
Andrea

O.k. a quesegtions

Couldn't Sputnik been put under GPL (not LGPL) to avoid anybody making a fortune on Marciks work ? Not that it would be as easy as some suggest, just to be sure.

What about making it a multistep bounty, current sum for basic browser (as stated in bounty), current sum + xxx for an advanced version (details/features would need to described before).

This would be much easier than sending money directly, it might even make Marcik filthy rich (well atleast compared to what he could earn by single supscriptions) and "we" would still have a good&free browser, which might at one point be included in MorphOS1.5.......

Maybe set up seperate bounties for those running infidel OSes

Erm, first of all, I am not blaming him for anything, do not put words in his mouth. I asked honest questions. Secondly, the terms of the bounty are quite clear, indeed, they indicate an open source port. This is what people from other systems donated for, not ports to their own systems. Nobody would mind if the source isn't released but Marcik gets help from a couple of other people for a few ports here and there but if the source doesn't get released and the port stays MorphOS only, I feel that it is cheating those people and does nothing other than enlarging the god-damned fence we have errected in this community.

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That doesn't seem to be in line with the bounty requirements. The requirements explicitely states this:

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Therefore, if the BSD-licensed code would be kept closed source, the bounty requirements wouldn't be met.

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It was a bounty for MorphOS with the guarantee that all sources would be released, not just part of them. With all sources, a port to AOS4 would then have been quite easy.

With just the KHTML code, the port to AOS4 is as far in time as it has always been: KHTML already compiles even for AROS, I and Adam Chodorowski made it compile a couple years ago, what is needed is a wrapper from QT to MUI, which is what Marcik has implemented, and without it the KTHML source is as useless (or useful, depending on your point of view) as it has always been.

[ Edited by falemagn on 2006/7/31 15:11 ]

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If they were that clear, there'd not be so much confusion. Read my other posts to know why.

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This idea is quite sound, indeed. The LGPL part still needs to be released as LGPL, it cannot be converted to GPL, but the BSD part can be released as GPL without problems, and then anyone wanting to use it would be required to release his/her code under the GPL license as well.

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No way. Forget it. I won't touch any C code , and this is especially true in case of any code for OS4. Period.

Signed,
Pascal Freak

Never mind, not my business anyway.

[ Edited by falemagn on 2006/7/31 20:32 ]

@CISC

> he's not bound by anything by merely accepting to work on it

I guess deadlines mean nothing in MorphOS land anymore?

@gelb
err, two more weeks? SCNR

I dunno, it seems to me like if you agree to the bounty, you should keep your promise. Even if you take the work you started (to earn the bounty), after it is done and build on that to sell, that's OK in my book. But the work you say you do for the bounty-you should do and provide it as the way you earned the bounty.

Just my two cents.

ChainQ, just curious, do you have a DKB Wildfire 060 board in your 2000? Even if not, that's a mighty sweeet Amiga 2000!

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My point is that nothing is promised when you start a bounty, apart from trying your best to fulfill it. Anything else would be unreasonable given the circumstances of how bounties work and what they usually are trying to achieve...

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Well, so far Marcik has not indicated that he will or is planning to do otherwise, so I don't really see what the big fuzz is about.

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One does not get paid until a bounty is fulfilled within agreeable terms to the donators, thus you are in effect not being paid for the work you are doing, but the work you have done once everyone agrees you are finished.

Therefore a promise is not made by either party until such an event occurs (but rather a statement of intent if you will (the donators intend to grant access to the money if certain criteria are fulfilled, and the party accepting to work on the bounty intend to work towards the goal required to collect that money)) .. when it does both parties agree on an exchange of money vs whatever was settled as the goal of the bounty. If either party change their mind during the process leading up to this they are entitled to do so and the bounty will be left unresolved and possibly opened for takers again...


- CISC

[ Edited by CISC on 2006/8/1 5:58 ]

I dunno, it seems to me like if you agree to the bounty, you should keep your promise.

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My point is that nothing is promised when you start a bounty, apart from trying your best to fulfill it. Anything else would be unreasonable given the circumstances of how bounties work and what they usually are trying to achieve...

My point is that when you step up to the plate and say 'I'll take on that bounty' and then start working on it, then provide screenshots which get more donators hyped enough to send in money (which is exactly what's happened here) then start going 'oh well maybe I'll just give up and sell this instead' then it is kinda like grabbing the base at the last second and walking away. It IS breaking a promise. By that rationale, Amiga never promised anything either..

Those people gave money on the promise of future functionality seen in the screenshots and read about in the updates. Pure and simple. The bounty got bigger after each update.

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Even if you take the work you started (to earn the bounty), after it is done and build on that to sell, that's OK in my book.

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Well, so far Marcik has not indicated that he will or is planning to do otherwise, so I don't really see what the big fuzz is about.

I didn't get that impression. I got the impression he's thinking quite seriously about bailing out on the bounty now. I can't say that I blame him in a way, but I would still feel kinda jerked around if I'd stuck in $500 or something.

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One does not get paid until a bounty is fulfilled within agreeable terms to the donators, thus you are in effect not being paid for the work you are doing, but the work you have done once everyone agrees you are finished.

That is exactly what I said above, CISC. When the work you did is done, you earned the bounty. Not before it is done.

But, the fact is that he's been on it since 2005, so no one else (possibly who coulda completed it?) started working on it instead. If he does quit now, that puts the bounty and its prize a YEAR BEHIND where it woulda been if he'd just not done it and let someone else take the bounty. That's frustrating. Now, if this isn't what is happening then, thankfully, its just so much hot air. I really hope this is the case. But, our man needs to come out and say 'OK, I'm gonna fulfill the bounty and make this thing work, so don't worry about it.' or else he needs to go ahead and try to go commercial with what he's got. Good luck in this market. In other words, its hit it or quit it time.

I'm not bashing here, I'm not flaming. Just trying to make the point that if he's been working on this for so long then bails-it doesn't matter so much that he doesn't get paid. What matters is if he bails, we're yet another year behind in getting a real browser. This is my point.

When Marcik comes on here and says 'hey guys, chill, I'm still going towards the bounty, here's a new screenshot, don't worry be happy!' then I'll breathe a great sigh of relief that most of this thread just became pointless

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Who is confused?

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Those are quite different things though .. if that happens no-one is really ripped off .. the coder leaves with nothing but his/her hard work, and the donators still have alot of money saved up for anyone else willing to do the job per terms.

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Sure, it might be frustrating, but you can't really blame the person if that happens. There might be a number of reasons for someone to quit a bounty, and usually it's because the situation changed, either the money to work ratio didn't turn out as expected, or there was some other major obstacle that made the person re-evaluate everything, either being perfectly reasonable excuses to quit the bounty. This might be equally frustrating to both parties, those that donated don't get what they hoped for (but they might if someone else takes on the bounty again), and neither does whoever accepted the bounty, however this person might have put in alot of hard work on this project so can't really be blamed for wanting to move on with it elsewhere...


- CISC

[ Edited by CISC on 2006/8/1 18:32 ]

I agree with Tronman that if somebody who accepted a bounty a year ago backs out, it sets back all the donors by a year, because they could have been recruiting the next programmer in that time.

I disagree with the person who said he solicited OS4 donors for the project and so they have a stake in the bounty too, because this is a bounty for a MorphOS port. Every bounty at Morphzone is for a MorphOS program. Nobody was supposed to tell OS4 users they'd get hooked up too. Let them start their own KHTML bounty. And that's not a bad idea, some of those fanatics would probably sell their homes or cash in their bible college tuition to pump up their (OS4) bounty.

One thing that marcik could possibly do is fulfill the MZ bounty with a costless MorphOS release, grab the pot, and then he could sell OS4 and classic and AROS versions.

It's difficult to accept a crippled version but possibly a Sputnik version that allows one single browser window and no tabs would be bearable, and then there could be the opportunity to upgrade to complete feature set. It would be horrible if someone crippled the bookmark feature or time-limited it or something.

In all of this brainstorming (which I know laire hates) the one thing I really believe is that marcik made a commitment when he accepted the bounty and he should carry through on it, as best he can.

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I think OS4 users donated thinking that an open source MOS port of KHTML would be easy to port to OS4.

I was that person and I wasn't the only one. The standard answer of many MorphOS people about a browser was "you know where the bounty is". The OS4 users didn't donate for a port to their system, they donated for a port to Amiga like system, so that the source would be easy to adapt to their system as well.

Let me quote from the FAQ:
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Notice how the FAQ says that a port would not be difficult? This assumes that he would allow such a port, closed or open source. This is what matters, not what licence it's gonna be under.

And, again, the bounty mentions an mcc. What about that? I would assume that with a commercial browser coming out of this project, this will not be released, or will be shareware. Right?

I always thought that source code was going to be provided.

Marcik can leave the bounty. That is also allowed by the rules.

It's certainly a pity, but you can't blame him as he hasn't earned a single cent because he hasn't submited the results.

The contributors allowed him to change the deadline date because he was supposed to release it with sources.

If he had said this when the time was finished other person could have taken the bounty. Now the time has passed and although the amount is quite high it just means yet another year waiting.

I think that he could release the MCC as GPL so no one can use it without making his browser free (for example the IBrowse team).

He could release a basic browser with sources as example about how to use his khtml.mcc and also keep selling Sputnik, his advanced and professional web browser and charge money for it without the need of publishing Sputnik's sources.

The situation is complex, but a solution could be reached. Keeping the MCC closed source won't allow YAM/Simplemail to use it for example, and I'm sure people contributed thinking that it would be a free software MCC.

[ Edited by Crumb on 2006/8/3 11:28 ]

I sugest to let marcik take a final decision before burning down the house...

The solution imho isn't too complex, altrough the final decision is not mine ...

Release all the Sputnik project Open Source, and add a simple Paypal button in a future Sputnik's Home Page

2000$ is already availible for Marcik thanks to the old donations, plus with future PayPal ...

Off course, this is only my personal opinion

i suggest we stop bull s h i t ing about this and leave the guy working in peace. No need to pollute his mind with what looks like a beginning of amiga-style childish war.
Marcik will see when it's done.


edit : i hate when i can't write b u l l s h i t properly.



[ Edited by SoundSquare on 2006/8/4 20:51 ]