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Of course not, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, the "no nothing, nothing at all" was supposed to connect in context to the part of my text that you 'conveniently' deleted in your quote above, effectively meaning: nothing at all like the civil war, butchering of civilians, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, etc we saw at Yugoslavias break down.

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What?! That is actually more than a little offensive! Don't put words in my mouth, especially not making it sound that I would be OK in some weird way that 95 people gets killed. I am certainly not!


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Read the thread again, and you will see that my post was a reply to post #15.

"There is no difference." ( <- Comparison )

It's just that I beg to differ. The accumulated track record of all the mad things that went on during the balkan wars *clearly* (at least in my eyes) shows that foreign peace keeping forces as mentioned in post #15 (and other posts by Intuition above) was *more* warranted there, than after a series of demonstrations in Ukraine, even if they tragically meant 95 deaths.

Those two doesn't compare, at least not in my eyes. There *is* a difference!

I believe the name of the game is Global Consolidation. Hitler wasn't the only one with that particular idea, it's just the approach is different.

Edit: Though my point isn't that Russia is taking over the world, I'm just saying, this is but a detail in the ever changing global...

...what ever you call it.

[ Edited by XDelusion 06.03.2014 - 16:53 ]

Crimea should belong to Tatars. All Russians are immigrants in Crimea. Most of people in post soviet block know that the less russian control, the better. We (Poles) support Ukraine despite the killing of 150000 people by Bandera's commandos and losing Lviv, Luck and Tarnopil for Ukraine after II World War because every country may have own dream about being idependent.

If only countries were truly independent any more or even bothered to aspire for it at that. :/

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Couldn't agree more... that money may end up being used to buy weapons to fuel a civil war. IMHO Russia has done the right thing to protect their militar bases and the russians of Crimea. EUs interest in helping Ukraine has been poor until now. I would be pretty worried if a philo-nazi party full of hate against the russians had done a putsch to control the government. If the new government was democratic would be preparing elections to choose a new political party&president.

USA is pushing EU to expand its limits to ex-URSS countries or even current Russia allies, sometimes even countries not ready to become part of the EU.

USA attacks any country of their choice to get profits making the target country pay to USA companies for reconstruction, reactivating their militar industry and pissing off Russia and China: Afganistan, Irak, Siria, Libya, Somalia... and indirectly in many other countries, specially caribean and souhamericans. I wouldn't trust their warmonger goverment much, oil and money it's all the justification they need (disguised with some lame and fake "liberty" motto.


@Recedent
About your example of the redefinition of Poland borders please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought after the war most germans in that areas were forced to leave their homes and move to the west and leave the area "clean" of germans (if that was not the case I guess most went back to Germany to avoid russian army vengeance). Crimea in contrast was given to Ukraine "as is" without forcing its original population to move so there's still people alive who was born russian and lived in Russia before Nikita Jrushchov have the weird idea of giving Crimea as gift. I think that if there are old men alive that were born russian and knew that area as Russia is just different than talking about Khans and Julius Caesar, it's a different scale of time. All in all: Crimea going back to Russia would make sense IMHO since not much time has passed (there's people alive who lived in Crimea being Russia, not the same about talking about Khans or the Roman Empire) and most population is russian too.

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We kinda have the same situation in Finland and have been that way for quite some time. Theres some noise but having a huge nationalist party haven't made that much difference. I was afraid of way more dramatic happenings which luckily never happened.

I am talking about True Finns political party

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic

The current situation in Ukraine sounds oddly familiar in some ways...

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Kosovo was a different aspect even when portrayed in contrast with the whole Yugoslavian breakdown. First of all, it happened AFTER the collapse and ending of the (ex-civil) war between the major three nations involved. Secondly, the UN had absolutely nothing to do with it at all. It was solely a NATO thing (with the exception of us holding a neutral position). Ultra right wing Albanian paramilitary organization UCK, geared with US weaponry, started the ethnic clearance on the region with the goal being to unite with Albania. It was the same paramilitary organization, consisted in large by criminals, murders and fascists, that had printed maps displaying part of the north west Greece as Albanian territory. Hell, I remember them waving them proudly on CNN back in 1999! I know that the middle European has pictured Serbs like medieval cannibals feeding themselves with human babies (partially due to real slaughters and brutality of their army ordered by their asshole leaders between the actual Yugoslavian breakdown) but Kosovo was a chance to neutralize Milosevits and force Russia to quit its last standing ally on the region.

@ hooligan & Zylesea

Yeah, it's worrying to see how fascists and ultra-nationalists starts to gain entrance to so many parliaments in Europe now. On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily mean they will gain real political influence. In Sweden, they are totally isolated by other political parties. In this case however, I agree that it is problematic that they are in the government, but supposedly, it's an Interim Government of limited life time, and there should be new elections soonish (which is the plan at least AFAIK). Of course, this new events may even boost support for ultra-nationalists even more, which would be unfortunate and yet another effect of the Russian aggression.

However, Ukraine is at the brink of bankruptcy. The country is in urgent and desperate need of a HUGE emergency financial injection into their economy to prevent a financial break down of Ukraine. *Then* can the mending of the economy start, which will take a long time, and they can't do it alone. So they must turn to either Russia or the EU, USA (and IMF etc). And for some reason, I think they no longer trust Russia. And with money from foreign tax payers comes often conditions and terms that has to be met by the receiving part, as with Greece and many other examples. So it remains to be seen what real-life impact those fascists can have on the politics. They will need to keep the givers happy, and the money stream from abroad open.



[ Edited by takemehomegrandma 07.03.2014 - 11:00 ]

1921150_671124802943586_1179476340_o.jpg

Ha ha, that reminds me of this:

Global Politics in 30 Seconds:

http://youtu.be/Hf-xePlM-zg

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It always makes me laugh to see the anti-american nonsense coming from someone in the UK. Your leaders aren't acting any different than Obama.

Anyhow, I do agree that the US shouldn't be involved. As a matter of fact I think we should recall all US troops to defend the US 50 states and announce to the rest of the world they are on their own.

Good luck.

Absolutely, after all, you Europeans were doing so jolly well before we joined in with you during WWII.

Good luck.

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Similar to Syrian conflict, there are no good sides. Its hard to ally, even EU/NATO easily pick their side. Just like Russia, one should remember NATO violates all UN conventions on their own protection of "US interest anywhere", starting from 1999 bombing I have experienced with almost no military goals and a lot of civic victims.
Not to say Putin is any better in use of force and political preassures. Seems UN is a failed project due to veto part which makes nations unequal.

Nice summary on Ukrainian situation, which is exteremely complex.

There are pro Russians and Ukranian nationalists, poor and rich part of country and Crimea with special status. Sadly, it is civic war since all involved beside Russian army are factually Ukrainians.

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Well, now when capitalism is only (fake) mode of survival, I also like to remind myself of Red Heats "Capitalism" phrase

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppl8KJETIfQ

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True, about Tartars - Crimeas is Russian as much as Tibet belongs to China, but Stalin has moved them away and I dont know about their civic status in Ukraine. As far as I know these Western parts of Poland did belong to Ukraine.
However, there is land taken from Poland after WWII.

Sadly, in ex-Yu experience, dreams of national independence often end
in neoliberal global dependency worse then before when in larger federal union = less economic and social freedoms and greater social inequalities.

Nazi, Hitler, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, 9/11, God, Allah, Jerusalem, done.

The discussion was somewhat interesting but, seing the last posts, could we please do it Bouma-style for once and lock this political thread or hide it away from the front page before some people write direct insult toward others?

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Don`t be fooled, check e.g. Stormfront, right wingies are sadly on raise during world crisis. Take a look at Hungary, just as an example.

Hope mind of people will not be poisoned by 21st century national romanticism, but real belief in human solidarity in times of great world sufferings under neoliberal capitalism (no joke, its for quite long now recession in almost all but China and Latin America).

On US policies: fake cradle of democracy has legal neonazis and KKK, as well as it often supports extreme regimes if being somewhat allied with them (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Talibans vs Russians, Tudjman in Croatia etc.)

Slightly related, did you know that the James Bond movie that shares the name with this thread, had it finnish release name changed to "Salainen agentti Istambulissa", which can be directly translated to "Secret agent in Istambul"?

While the focus is on Ukraine, see what the Czech Republic did, and only CNN noticed!

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Russia saved Europe. USA just saw money. Btw, this link is very interesting
http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/03/inside-ukraine-reader-speaks-ukrainian-russian-challenges-western-media-view-events/

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Yes, I'm sure you're right and that the Polish and German nationals formerly living in Communist governed countries would agree. ;)

Russians "saved" Europe...in case they get hungry later.

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What does upset an developer so much, it needs censorship?

I have been browsing all over the thread and seen no faulty language,
just different angles on same matter. Or it has to be a single hive mind?

Vox: Funny!

The sad thing is, is that the world is heading towards a great irony which I call Corporate Capitalism, where in Big Business has more to say over public affairs and concerns than the governments do.
And the worse part, according to our Democratic REPUBLIC, the people are supposed to rule the government, though then again when the people are not educated in the means to protect them selves against the "public relations" and "opinion making" methods of the psychologist and sociologists behind the media (and other fields), such concepts as "the people" and "democracy" are kind of rendered null and void.
Ignorance is no defence against social engineering and generational conditioning. And the anti-Zen state that is perpetuated by sensationalists talking heads on the screen, the simplified printed word on the papers, and the mantras of the air waves isn't helping people to be neutral, observant, and protective of their personal sovereignty in any way shape or form.

Though with quotes like this one should it come as any shock?


"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans."
- Bill Clinton, USA Today on 3/11/93, page 2a


Or quotes like these that can generally be researched and found as true... going years and years unnoticed even after they came true, well I think that just makes the big picture even scarier.

“We have stricken the (slave) shackles from four million human beings and brought all laborers to a common level not so much by the elevation of former slaves as by practically reducing the whole working population, white and black, to a condition of serfdom. While boasting of our noble deeds, we are careful to conceal the ugly fact that by an iniquitous money system we have nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined, is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery.”
- Horace Greeley - (1811-1872) founder of the New York Tribune

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
- Henry Ford

“The money power preys on the nation in times of peace, and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes.” - Abraham Lincoln

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining super capitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
- Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

Great stuff Chris.

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I don't find anything offensive about this thread. Its on general discussion, lets do some general discussing.