MorphZone

From Russia with love

hooligan

# 126
Moderator

Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23

From: Lahti, Finland

Quote:

Jim wrote:
Even those that have them don't want to use them, although being dead does solve _all_ problems, eventually.

You just earned a cigar for yourself
www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
»19.03.14 - 13:58

Jim

# 127
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

hooligan wrote:
Quote:

Jim wrote:
Even those that have them don't want to use them, although being dead does solve _all_ problems, eventually.

You just earned a cigar for yourself

Hey, at least we don't have to worry about protecting the Finns.
They've always been very capable at that.
Even when having to face down "Mother Russia".

And even though I've made some statements that might be misconstrued as supporting nuclear weapons, I DO find them utterly horrific. And the direction fallout takes is uncontrollable. You might irradiate your own people.

Further, this "no one has the nerve to challenge the Russian Military" crap is absurd.
Let them attack a NATO member and we will see.
We would then be obligated to respond.

While combat with foot soldiers would be grueling, we can take out Soviet armament from distances their systems can't even target accurately at, so in a limited engagement we would prevail.

Russians aren't stupid, they don't want to start a global war that they WOULD lose.

[ Edited by Jim 19.03.2014 - 16:27 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»19.03.14 - 14:12

QMaster

# 128
Butterfly

Posts: 98 from 2004/6/4

From: Ivanovo, Russia

It's a real fun to read what Polish, USA, Europe ppl think what Crimeans should do and how they must have been voting.
Also, takemehomegrandma, have you ever seen crimean vote questions or you just printing your journalist's thoughts about what questions should be there after EVIL russian AK47 pointed to the heads of all Crimean ppl?
Why are all of you covering the fascists from western Ukraine? Why do you think that people grown on Bandera's ideals will not kill (like Bandera does) all the Polish and Jude ppl from all over the Ukraine and over its borders? Why do you think that you will not be the next one?
WBR, Vladimir Berezenko
»19.03.14 - 18:24

stefkos

# 129
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 96 from 2004/2/4

Do not put all people into one bag.
I think we all dont have full view on that case, only few people have details about it....

Quote:

QMaster wrote:
It's a real fun to read what Polish, USA, Europe ppl think what Crimeans should do and how they must have been voting.
Also, takemehomegrandma, have you ever seen crimean vote questions or you just printing your journalist's thoughts about what questions should be there after EVIL russian AK47 pointed to the heads of all Crimean ppl?
Why are all of you covering the fascists from western Ukraine? Why do you think that people grown on Bandera's ideals will not kill (like Bandera does) all the Polish and Jude ppl from all over the Ukraine and over its borders? Why do you think that you will not be the next one?
»19.03.14 - 18:35

itix

# 130
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24

From: Finland

Quote:

QMaster wrote:
Why are all of you covering the fascists from western Ukraine? Why do you think that people grown on Bandera's ideals will not kill (like Bandera does) all the Polish and Jude ppl from all over the Ukraine and over its borders? Why do you think that you will not be the next one?

I wonder, why Russia was supporting Yanukovich? I dont know how much tension there have been between Ukraineans and Russians but surely it could not happen just recently. It must have happened when Yanukovich was in lead.

[ Edited by itix 19.03.2014 - 20:37 ]
1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
»19.03.14 - 19:34

Zylesea

# 131
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4

Quote:

QMaster schrieb:
It's a real fun to read what Polish, USA, Europe ppl think what Crimeans should do and how they must have been voting.
Also, takemehomegrandma, have you ever seen crimean vote questions or you just printing your journalist's thoughts about what questions should be there after EVIL russian AK47 pointed to the heads of all Crimean ppl?
Why are all of you covering the fascists from western Ukraine? Why do you think that people grown on Bandera's ideals will not kill (like Bandera does) all the Polish and Jude ppl from all over the Ukraine and over its borders? Why do you think that you will not be the next one?

As written above. We are all trapped in propaganda. East not better or worse than West.

Thing is some sources say the Svoboda and right sector are only minority with little influence and many of them aren't that evil, while other sources claim UA is just on the edge to become a Hitler Germany reloaded. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

Same for Crimea. Some sources say it's all borked, illegal and void while other sources praise the democratic process. And indeed there are troops and there was indeed a referendum. It's hard to build a proper picture from the information available and the actual agenda behind it.

I will not judge about that and would prefer neutrality from the EU. A clear word agaist fascists in UA and a clear word against military intervention/imperialism from Russia. But don't take party of any side.

PPl should overcome the idea of Russia vs. Europe. Russia is Europe, too. And Russia is of course not perfect and free from doubt, but who actually is? Critics yes, confrontation no!
--
http://via.bckrs.de

Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
»19.03.14 - 22:17

TheMagicM

# 132
Paladin of the Pegasos

Posts: 1217 from 2003/6/17

Quote:

hooligan wrote:
Quote:

TheMagicM wrote:
From here on out...if I was UA, I would build up my nuclear arsenal.

Good idea. Every country should have some nuclear weapons. It would solve _all_ problems, eventually.

Its not about solving problems, its keeping countries at bay.
»19.03.14 - 22:50

takemehomegrandma

# 133
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24

Quote:

Zylesea wrote:

We are all trapped in propaganda. East not better or worse than West.

I don't agree with this at all. Most Western European media is independent and free, and have *their own* reporters present (both in Ukraine and in Russia) to report what's going on without any agenda. A key here is plurality, independence and freedom. The Russian media however, and especially the broadcast media, is not, and they have been pushing propaganda to the Russian public that there was some kind of a problem in Crimea, that the ethnic Russians living there was oppressed by a fascist Ukrainian government, making the broad population believe that Russia has now *saved* and *liberated* Crimea, and as a result, most Russians are now very happy about this development, as they seriously believe it was the right thing to do.
MorphOS is Amiga done right!
MorphOS NG will be AROS done right!
»20.03.14 - 09:19

itix

# 134
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24

From: Finland

@takemehomegrandma

We still dont know everything. According to the news source there was not only Ukrainian soldier shot dead but also Russian soldier was shot dead. Russians and local police claim they were shot by a sniper.

One of snipers at Maidan square was holding Russian passport but that itself proofs nothing.
1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
»20.03.14 - 11:37

Jim

# 135
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

Zylesea wrote:
East not better or worse than West.
... Russia is Europe, too. And Russia is of course not perfect

Russia is Europe?
And the Russians are our equivalents?
Damn, from a smart man, profoundly dumb ideas.

Do we know exactly what's going on?
Of course not, the Russians aren't going to tell us.

But they have lied, denying the identity of their own solders.
And they are occupying another country.
Evidence enough of their lack of trustworthiness.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»21.03.14 - 11:39

takemehomegrandma

# 136
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24

Quote:

Jim wrote:

Russia is Europe?

The Western part of it is, which is separated from Asia by the Ural Mountains and by the Caspian and Black Seas:

eunewneb.gif

Quote:

And the Russians are our equivalents?
Damn, from a smart man, profoundly dumb ideas.

Well, your US perspective appears to be somewhat different than the European one, perhaps especially the East-European one...
MorphOS is Amiga done right!
MorphOS NG will be AROS done right!
»21.03.14 - 12:01

ASiegel

# 137
Posts: 1370 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

Quote:

Jim wrote:
Quote:

Zylesea wrote:
East not better or worse than West.
... Russia is Europe, too. And Russia is of course not perfect

Russia is Europe?

Considering that 77% of Russians live on the European continent, it takes a special person to argue that Russia is not a part of Europe.

Quote:

But they have lied, denying the identity of their own solders.
And they are occupying another country.
Evidence enough of their lack of trustworthiness.

This is not a comment on the situation in Crimea but I fail to understand your continued obsession with "trustworthiness".

If you bother to think for a minute, I am sure you can come up with examples of Western countries first supplying arms to dictators to help them get into power and then removing said dictators with miliary inventions years later.

Historically, international politics have been greatly defined by opportunistic, not trustworthy behaviour.
»21.03.14 - 12:35

Kronos

# 138
Moderator

Posts: 2242 from 2003/2/24

Quote:

ASiegel wrote:

Considering that 77% of Russians live on the European continent, it takes a special person to argue that Russia is not a part of Europe..

Except for the fact that really isn't an European (or Asian) continent and there have been over the times several different lines used to split the eurasian continent.

If you are talking bout political and historic "europe" than Russia is more like an involved outsider similar to Turkey or to some extent even the US.
»21.03.14 - 13:18

Jim

# 139
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
Quote:

Jim wrote:

Russia is Europe?

The Western part of it is, which is separated from Asia by the Ural Mountains and by the Caspian and Black Seas:

Quote:

And the Russians are our equivalents?
Damn, from a smart man, profoundly dumb ideas.

Well, your US perspective appears to be somewhat different than the European one, perhaps especially the East-European one...

So Russia straddles Europe and Asia and is only partial European.

As to Western views of Russia, obviously not all Eastern Europeans feel so fond of Russia.
The East Germans are now reunited with their free Western brethren and Poland jumped at the chance to get out of the Russian sphere of influence.
Georgia which is quite Russian, doesn't want to be part of Russia, and neither did the Ukraine.

Russia is taking the opportunity provided by Ukrainian political turmoil to seize part of another country.
One that just happens to have a vital Soviet Naval base in it.

Now, considering our occupation of part of Cuba, it would be foolish to pretend that there are no parallels here.
But don't pretend that this is an issue where Ukrainian interests are at the heart of the matter. This is entirely in Russia's interest.

[ Edited by Jim 21.03.2014 - 13:36 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»21.03.14 - 13:28

ASiegel

# 140
Posts: 1370 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

@ Kronos
Quote:

Except for the fact that really isn't an European (or Asian) continent

Well, the geographic community and leading encyclopedias disagree.

While there are different views about whether Africa, Asia and Europe are a single or multiple continents, the definition of "Europe" as a continent is pretty specific and hardly one that is being debated in the 21st century.
»21.03.14 - 13:35

Jim

# 141
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

ASiegel wrote:
Considering that 77% of Russians live on the European continent, it takes a special person to argue that Russia is not a part of Europe.

No other country in Europe straddles so much territory that it covers multiple regions.
As Russians can be of European or Asian descent, yes they are not traditional Europeans.

Quote:

This is not a comment on the situation in Crimea but I fail to understand your continued obsession with "trustworthiness".

If you bother to think for a minute, I am sure you can come up with examples of Western countries first supplying arms to dictators to help them get into power and then removing said dictators with miliary inventions years later.

Historically, international politics have been greatly defined by opportunistic, not trustworthy behaviour.

VERY well stated. Our record, especially in Central America, South America, and Africa is pretty bad.
And then there is Spain in Europe (well at least Franco is still dead).

On the other hand, and we share this accomplishment with the Russians, we didn't let Europe remain in the hands of the Fascists (well, we didn't interfere with Spain, can't win them all).

"Trustworthiness"? Well our free press is absolutely no guarantee of accurate reporting, but it does have more of a chance of revealing the truth than the Russian State controlled media.

Someone brought up GDP in relationship to this discussion.
Outside of the outstanding performance of the Chinese, why don't we take a quick look at the per capita figures for Western vs. Eastern economies?

Russian oil reserves have greatly helped in this type of comparison, but I'll hold up our standard of living over theirs any day of the week.

Russian GDP per capita GDP $14,037.03 Ranked 44th.
US GDP per capita $49,965.27 Ranked 10th.
4 times more than Russia

And a better measurement would be Gross National Income

Russian Gross National Income $253 billion Ranked 17th.
US Gross National Income $9.78 trillion Ranked 1st.
39 times more than Russia

Equivalent? Not even close.
We are by far more productive.
We enjoy freedoms unknown to Russian citizens.
And at times while our opinions may appear to be biased based on perspective, you should understand that our foundation sits on a deeply held belief that God has granted all people with inalienable rights that should be respected.

Crimea had a vote? Really?
And when did Russia discover the democratic process?
Dissent may not be tolerated in Russia, but it is here (even against our own leaders) and this is a bogus move by the Russians backed by by a military occupation with masked soldiers.

Equivocate all you want. Many of you are on the wrong side of this.

[ Edited by Jim 21.03.2014 - 19:03 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»21.03.14 - 13:47

boot_wb

# 142
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 874 from 2007/4/9

From: Kingston upon ...

Quote:

Jim wrote:
ASiegel wrote:
>Considering that 77% of Russians live on the European continent, it takes a special person to
> argue that Russia is not a part of Europe.

No other country in Europe straddles so much territory that it covers multiple regions.
As Russians can be of European or Asian descent, yes they are not traditional Europeans.

> This is not a comment on the situation in Crimea but I fail to understand your continued
> obsession with "trustworthiness".

> If you bother to think for a minute, I am sure you can come up with examples of Western
> countries first supplying arms to dictators to help them get into power and then removing
> said dictators with miliary inventions years later.

> Historically, international politics have been greatly defined by opportunistic, not trustworthy
> behaviour.

VERY, well stated. Our record, especially in Central America, South America, and Africa is pretty bad.
And then there is Spain in Europe (well at least Franco is still dead).

On the other hand, and we share this accomplishment with the Russians, we didn't let Europe remain in the hands of the Fascists (well, we didn't interfere with Spain, can't win them all).

"Trustworthiness"? Well our free press is absolutely no guarantee of accurate reporting, but it does have more of a chance of revealing the truth than than Russian State controlled media.

Someone brought up GDP in relationship to this discussion.
Outside of the outstanding performance of the Chinese, why don't we take a quick look at the per capita figures for Western vs. Eastern economies?

Russian oil reserves have greatly helped in this type of comparison, but I'll hold up our standard of living over theirs any day of the week.

Russian GDP per capita GDP $14,037.03 Ranked 44th.
US GDP per capita $49,965.27 Ranked 10th.
4 times more than Russia

And a better measurement would be Gross National Income

Russian Gross National Income $253 billion Ranked 17th.
US Gross National Income $9.78 trillion Ranked 1st.
39 times more than Russia

Equivalent? Not even close.
We are by far more productive.
We enjoy freedoms unknown to Russian citizens.
And at times while our opinions may appear to be biased based on perspective, you should understand that our foundation sits on a deeply held belief that God has granted all people with inalienable rights that should be respected.

Crimea had a vote? Really?
And when did Russia discover the democratic process?
Dissent may not be tolerated in Russia, but it is here (even against our own leaders) and this is a bogus move by the Russians backed by by a military occupation with masked soldiers.

Equivocate all you want. Many of you are on the wrong side of this.

Jim took the Red, White & Blue pills.

If we were to consider the nations of the world as individuals, they would almost without exception be the most scurrilous, devious, usurous, manipulative lying scumbags any of us has ever met.

Why are you currently so certain that the perspective put forward by the US and its allies (and subsequently 'press-released'/'media-briefed' through the various News channels) is less bullshit than that put forward by Russia et al through its press? I refer you to the Western presses' -ahem- critical analysis and questioning of the wisdom of the 'war on terror' et al post 9/11. (Hint: there wasn't any, at least in the mainstream presses. Even the most critical wanted to be 'seen to be Patriotic', so as not to lose readership/sales. The "Fourth Estate" as its known in the UK entirely failed to act as a counterbalance to the governmental jingoism and the drums of war.)

Personally, I think that Russia is annexing Crimea aggressively. I also think the international outrage has knack all to do with altruistism, and everything to do with money, geography, and longer-term 'just in case' military strategies of both the US and Russia.

Also, please don't bring God into it.

EDIT: Language Timothy!
EDITs: Damn quoting kludge.. grumble, grumble.

[ Edited by boot_wb 21.03.2014 - 13:58 ]
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»21.03.14 - 14:51

Jim

# 143
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Personally, I am not worried about the Russian long term strategy. The weight of their economy should brake any long term ambitions that the Russians have.

And as politicians ARE uniformly evil creatures, I wouldn't be able to counter your "personhood" argument. Governments are run by politicians all of whom have an agenda. And none of whom can be trusted as sources of the truth.

Further, as I have a multitude of issues with my own country, you won't hear me making an argument based on moral platitudes, just on the lesser of two evils.

The countries in the Western sphere are relatively prosperous. Alternately, Russia's allies are not.
And this is not a reflection on market or political systems. Our largest trading partner is a Communist country (China). And frankly, they kick ass in business. I have an order for circuit boards coming this week via DHL from China. Cost of production? About 25% of what a US manufacturer could produce, and quick turn around from Gerber files to boards shipped in less than a week.
Pity the Russian's can't seem compete in a similar fashion.
They have the people and the resources, but they just can't deliver the goods.

So, have we in the US injured you all SO badly?
Look at Germany if you really think so.
They recovered and they kick ass like no other European country.
In fact, I think they are more tactful than they might be since I'm pretty sure none of the rest of Europe works as well.
As another example, look at the Japanese.
Their re-creation/modernization has been remarkable.
Both examples, strong willed intelligent people who grasp the fundamentals of productivity and run circles around other countries in the process.
Our once enemies, now partners, that we greatly respect with no small measure of admiration.

So we continue to watch Russia in its failed experiment at making Communism a viable form of government mutating into some weird reflection of the fascists of old and you expect me to join the equivocation?
Ain't happening.
If Russia expects anything but continued isolation, it needs to moderate its expansionist tendencies.

Edit - God doesn't want to be brought up in rants about politics either.

[ Edited by Jim 21.03.2014 - 15:04 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»21.03.14 - 15:38

takemehomegrandma

# 144
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24

@ Jim

Of course I don't speak for everyone, but from what I have seen I think a quite common view in Europe is that Russians (as a *people*) are actually OK, I can't say I have seen any big anger or hatred at all against Russians as an ethnic group. But Putin and Russia's leadership is a completely different matter, many consider Putin to be a threat to European peace, stability, development, and a general menace to the world, at least now, after recent events in Ukraine. Two different things, in other words.
MorphOS is Amiga done right!
MorphOS NG will be AROS done right!
»21.03.14 - 16:01

takemehomegrandma

# 145
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24

Quote:

boot_wb wrote:

Jim took the Red, White & Blue pills.

MorphOS is Amiga done right!
MorphOS NG will be AROS done right!
»21.03.14 - 16:04

Jim

# 146
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
@ Jim

Of course I don't speak for everyone, but from what I have seen I think a quite common view in Europe is that Russians (as a *people*) are actually OK, I can't say I have seen any big anger or hatred at all against Russians as an ethnic group. But Putin and Russia's leadership is a completely different matter, many consider Putin to be a threat to European peace, stability, development, and a general menace to the world, at least now, after recent events in Ukraine. Two different things, in other words.

I didn't say I hated Russians.
They are, as a people, quite likable.
I don't care for their politicians or their tendency to bluster.

Makes me think of Khrushchev beating the table with his shoe.

"many consider Putin to be a threat to European peace, stability, development, and a general menace to the world"

Exactly my sentiments. I'd prefer my friends in Europe have the benefits I have in living in a freer society.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»21.03.14 - 16:10

Jim

# 147
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
Quote:

boot_wb wrote:

Jim took the Red, White & Blue pills.

What a scary thought for a liberal pacifist that grew up during the Vietnam war to consider.
I can honestly state that none of my recent posts truly offer a holistic version of my politics.

At one time I was very hopeful that Russia was joining us in the Global community.
And I'm baffled at the continued "us against them" mentality when we are no longer likely to be military adversaries.

I made the mistake of assuming the collapse of the Soviet Union would herald a more Democratic Russia. So far, the improvement is unremarkable.

[ Edited by Jim 21.03.2014 - 15:19 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»21.03.14 - 16:17

Zylesea

# 148
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4

Quote:

Jim schrieb:

So Russia straddles Europe and Asia and is only partial European.

Note that I wrote Russia is Europe, _too_. Meaning Russia is Asia _and_ Europe.

I am not voting for including Russia into EU now (grown too big anyway), but I am propagating a good relation ship between _all_ European countries. That would be of benefit for the _whole_ Europe.
Moscow is only about 1600km away from Berlin - that's not far. And a good relationship with your neighbours is always a good idea.
--
http://via.bckrs.de

Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
»21.03.14 - 21:45

Zylesea

# 149
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4

Quote:

Jim schrieb:

Our once enemies, now partners, that we greatly respect with no small measure of admiration.

According to NSA only a"3rd grade partner". And spied to #### - thank you very much!
In my book respect has another definition (absolutely not personally against you, Jim but against the US administration (for the record: UK, too.)).
--
http://via.bckrs.de

Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
»21.03.14 - 22:03

Jim

# 150
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

I don't think anyone, let alone our Politicians, controls the NSA Zylesea.
They scare me in a way the buffoons at the CIA and KGB never could.

Sorry about the slight earlier, I'm a little testy about this situation as we should have seen it coming.

And I wasn't kidding about Russians being great customers (the top bidder on my '040 processor card - Russian, the buyers for my G4 processors - Russian). One on one, I enjoy them thoroughly.
But their leader is yet another spook. I thought we were crazy after electing an actor as President, then electing his Vice President the former head of the CIA as his replacement, and now the Russians have a KGB official as their leader. Brilliant.

And the advantage we and the British have is the right of dissent. We can complain, protest, seek publication of our grievances. So, where we're wrong, we can fight for change.
Try that in Russia.

And don't let proximity bully you. The Finns fought Russian incursion and won. Most of Europe is a united front and its very unlikely that they would face similar treatment to the Ukraine.

I may be over reacting. After all, there are some very unsavory elements in the Ukraine right now.
On the point, I'd cede to the Russians. But we are all fooling ourselves if we pretend that Russia's primary concern is not their Naval base.

As to this spying issue, are you really foolish enough to think that the Russians don't do this too?
They knew about the Manhattan project before we told them about it.
Most countries are engaged in some espionage. Don't think the Europeans do it? Trust me, unlike our Keystone Cops, they just don't get caught.

Its a complex world, but when you weigh all the factors, I know what side I'm on - the winning one, with no apologies.

[ Edited by Jim 21.03.2014 - 22:07 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»21.03.14 - 22:45