History is history
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12113 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Seem to recall that the pegasos and "morphos" was the ng amiga system, until
    > amiga inc didt pay their bills ? ;P

    It had nothing to do with Amiga Inc. paying or not paying anything. Before Hyperion started their OS4 project in late 2001, Amiga Inc.'s own OS4 project was running since early 2001, with Fleecy Moss acting as the project lead, H&P supposed to do the core OS, P96 Team contributing the 2D part and Hyperion the 3D part (and several other parties like Olaf "olsen" Barthel). Needless to say that this project went nowhere especially with H&P starting to promote Amithlon and AmigaXL and the subsequent discord with Amiga Inc.
    It was during this timeframe that negotiations between the MorphOS developers and Amiga Inc. took place with the aim to have MorphOS published as AmigaOS4. Both negotiations (1st early 2001 and 2nd mid 2001) failed due to Amiga Inc. wanting too much control over OS development decisions for the MorphOS developers' liking.

    > Andreas? quessing you have some quotes ? ;D

    Some links should do:

    http://www.diff.org/diff/sette/amigaos4e.shtml
    http://anna.amigazeux.org/comments2.cgi?view=1002052615&category=forum
  • »13.11.13 - 17:02
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Well, atleast I wasn't completly off :-P

    [ Edited by Yasu 13.11.2013 - 19:03 ]
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »13.11.13 - 19:03
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    cha05e90
    Posts: 55 from 2010/6/23
    Quote:

    I disagree, both MorphOS and AROS are quite ahead of OS4.

    At least from my personal more or less daily experience with both MorphOS and AmigaOS I'll disagree: It (MorphOS) isn't. (Though I don't know AROS - so that one might be true).
    II/G4
  • »13.11.13 - 19:41
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    connor
    Posts: 570 from 2007/7/29
    @ Crumb

    you stated:
    Quote:


    OS4 is apparently no longer developed as it has not received real updates for ages


    which is just wrong. Even me as a non OS4 user but just an occasional reader knows this. Many better informed users like cha05e90 could tell you eaxctly what all has been updated and is in development. But your statement is so simply wrong for everybody to prove that there is no need to discuss about this any further.

    Quote:


    both MorphOS and AROS are quite ahead of OS4.


    this can be your opinion which is mine, too, but it is not a fact as you try to state.

    Quote:


    collaboration with something of low quality that tries to mimic linux is not something any amigan would desire, unless he has been brainwashed to think that linux is amiga.


    shows that you prefer to throw oil into the fire instead of *really* thinking about what a good collaboration could be of benefit for MOS as well.



    @ tolkien
    Quote:


    I dont understand BLUEvsRED war either...We lost more than we gain I think.


    Exactly. this is what I try to show Crumb. We all lost. No one gained a little by the multiple divorces. This war has to come to end but that obviously is not Crumb's intention.
  • »14.11.13 - 19:43
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12113 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Many better informed users like cha05e90 could tell you eaxctly what all has been updated

    Yes, and it's even public information: http://update.amigaos.net
  • »14.11.13 - 21:06
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Crumb,
    Quote:

    I disagree, both MorphOS and AROS are quite ahead of OS4.


    Not only do I think this is a fair statement, I really think it is simple FACT and not simply opinion. OS4 is withering on the vine.
  • »16.11.13 - 00:01
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    You know, we really need to stop picking at this scab.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.11.13 - 01:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2795 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    You know, we really need to stop picking at this scab.


    I agree. It serves no purpose. This thread should probably be closed.

    [ Edited by amigadave 16.11.2013 - 13:14 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »16.11.13 - 22:14
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    You know, we really need to stop picking at this scab.


    I agree. It serves no purpose. This thread should probably be closed.


    Seconded.
    It merely reflects poorly on us to keep rehashing this.
    Let those in the OS4 community that want to keep this sense of rivalry thriving carry on.
    We ought to be above it.

    And with this latest drive to get Fab a bounty to port over his web browser, we actually look like the more congenial party anyway. After all, their the party that doesn't want to share software.

    And, whatever will the brothers do if our developers do make the leap to 64bit?

    After all, two developers versus over a dozen isn't even a fair fight.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »17.11.13 - 01:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12113 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > two developers versus over a dozen

    I think OS4 has more OS developers than two.
  • »17.11.13 - 15:38
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Crumb
    Posts: 732 from 2003/2/24
    From: aGaS & CUAZ Al...
    Quote:

    connor wrote:
    which is just wrong. Even me as a non OS4 user but just an occasional reader knows this. Many better informed users like cha05e90 could tell you eaxctly what all has been updated and is in development. But your statement is so simply wrong for everybody to prove that there is no need to discuss about this any further.



    The updates seem minimal, latest one just included AmiUpdate, it's like claiming AmigaOS3.x is continuously evolving because Grunch was released for it :-)

    Quote:


    this can be your opinion which is mine, too, but it is not a fact as you try to state.



    Fact: AROS has public Gallium and OS4 doesn't so best card you can use with OS4 are R200.

    Fact: AROS runs on 64bits systems (and can use more than 2GB of ram).

    Fact: MorphOS supports R300 cards and OS4 doesn't.

    Fact: MorphOS runs on laptops and OS4 doesn't.

    It's not a matter of opinion I think.

    Quote:


    shows that you prefer to throw oil into the fire instead of *really* thinking about what a good collaboration could be of benefit for MOS as well.



    I just mean OS4 has little to offer for MorphOS and that OS4 is heading towards a linux-like system, something that is not Amiga/MorphOS phylosophy... not desirable for me. Collaboration is nice if both sides win something.


    Quote:


    Exactly. this is what I try to show Crumb. We all lost. No one gained a little by the multiple divorces. This war has to come to end but that obviously is not Crumb's intention.


    I have not interest in OS4&linux nor his users so it's funny that some people come pretending that nothing happened and that we have something to win... IMHO MorphOS Team should stay away from Hyperion&Ben Hermans. Everybody Ben Hermans deals with is sued by him (latest example is Amiga Inc)

    Collaboration between 3rd party developers? Of course, it's very desirable. But Collaboration between OS4&MorphOS Team? No thanks, that's just asking for trouble. Collaboration between AROS&MorphOS is a good idea too.

    OS4 will probably vanish alone due to the incompetence of its management, so don't worry, no need to look for "enemys" nor writting history books about conspiracy against OS4.
  • »18.11.13 - 12:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12113 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The updates seem minimal, latest one just included AmiUpdate

    According to the web page I linked to in posting #50, the latest update to OS4 was "Kernel | sys:kickstart/kernel | 53.58 | 2013-09-27".

    > best card you can use with OS4 are R200.

    ...if you want hardware-accelerated 3D.

    > MorphOS supports R300 cards and OS4 doesn't.

    I think it does in 2D.

    > Everybody Ben Hermans deals with is sued by him (latest example is Amiga Inc)

    Hyperion countersued Amiga Inc., but that was only after Amiga Inc. initially sued Hyperion. Besides, I think that Hyperion has had way more business partners that were not sued than those who were. Can you provide a list of all people or corporations that you think were sued by Hermans?
  • »18.11.13 - 14:31
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > two developers versus over a dozen

    I think OS4 has more OS developers than two.


    I have heard that rumor too, but every time someone brings up OS4 development they mention the Freiden brothers.

    So far, I have not seen anyone else make a credible claim that they were working on OS4.

    It seems painfully obvious that Steve Solie is not talented enough to handle it.

    >> MorphOS supports R300 cards and OS4 doesn't.

    >I think it does in 2D.

    Yes, a 2D driver has been available for some time.

    It's 3D drivers they seem to have a problem creating.


    [ Edited by Jim 18.11.2013 - 18:22 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »18.11.13 - 19:18
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12113 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> I think OS4 has more OS developers than two.

    > I have heard that rumor too

    Funny one :-)

    > but every time someone brings up OS4 development they mention the Freiden brothers.

    That's because those 2 are at the very core and are the only ones supposedly being paid fulltime for OS4 development (see how "100K euro per year" is a usual salary for 2 contracted senior programmers in Germany?). If this meant they were the only ones, MorphOS would have no OS developers by that logic.

    > So far, I have not seen anyone else make a credible claim that they were working on OS4.

    Huh? Where have you been looking for these claims? Surely not on the official Hyperion blog or official Hyperion support forum (or Amigans.net).

    "Alex Carmona and Lyle Hazelwood"
    http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=724

    "Fredrik Wikström"
    http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=736

    "Thomas "imagodespira" Claus and Frank "Goos McGuile" Menzel"
    http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=936

    Those alone are 5 people. Other people claimed to be current OS4 developers from http://www.amigaos.net/content/11/credits include:

    Colin Wenzel
    Costel Mincea
    Hans de Ruiter
    Karl Churchill
    Martin Merz
    Massimiliano Tretene
    Peter Gordon
    Philippe Ferrucci
    Sebastian Bauer
    Simon Archer
    Steven Solie
    Thore Böckelmann
    Tony Wyatt

    ... essentially every Hyperion Support Forum member with "AmigaOS Core Developer" status. I'm sure there're even more names from the AmigaOS credits page who claim or are claimed to be currently active in the OS4 project.
  • »18.11.13 - 21:22
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    cha05e90
    Posts: 55 from 2010/6/23
    Quote:

    Crumb schrieb:

    The updates seem minimal, latest one just included AmiUpdate, it's like claiming AmigaOS3.x is continuously evolving because Grunch was released for it :-)

    This is only *one* of those uneducated assumptions you made.

    Quote:

    I just mean OS4 has little to offer for MorphOS and that OS4 is heading towards a linux-like system, something that is not Amiga/MorphOS phylosophy...

    ...and another one. You can't be more wrong. But hey, just go on - we're on the blue side of things here. People like Jim will believe you, no problem.

    Quote:

    IMHO MorphOS Team should stay away from Hyperion&Ben Hermans.

    Not only in your humble opinion. Since "then" everything's coming out just niceley here, so there's no reason to change this.

    Quote:

    OS4 will probably vanish alone due to the incompetence of its management

    It won't. No, really. It will not go away...
    II/G4
  • »18.11.13 - 21:47
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    "People like Jim will believe you, no problem."

    I find that more than vaguely offensive.
    First, there is no one like me.
    Second, I'd place no more faith in an unsupported claim from a MorphOS user than I would an OS4 user.

    And on that point, thanks again Andreas.
    The last time I tried to find some information on OS4 it was so disorganized and scattered amongst several sites that I almost gave up.
    That has not encouraged me to continue exploring.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.11.13 - 12:15
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    It doesn't matter guys! This hypothetical merge will simply not happen.

    This discussion will take us nowhere.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »19.11.13 - 12:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12113 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The last time I tried to find some information on OS4 it was so disorganized and
    > scattered amongst several sites that I almost gave up. That has not encouraged
    > me to continue exploring.

    The two main OS4 resources are:

    http://www.amigaos.net
    http://wiki.amigaos.net

    None of those sites has a list of the currently active OS developers, but that shouldn't be needed for exploring the OS.
  • »19.11.13 - 13:35
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    No, knowledge of the OS4 developers is not really necessary.
    And curiously enough, I have grown rather sympathetic to the situation the Frieden brothers have found themselves in.
    Amiga fanatics can be a little abusive (as MorphOS supporters have probably noticed).

    If you disregard Ben's part in this endeavor, these are just to contracted developers trying to take on a really large project.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.11.13 - 23:15
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    It doesn't matter guys! This hypothetical merge will simply not happen.

    This discussion will take us nowhere.


    And that IS the central point.
    They developed an entire operating system rather than cooperate, so why would they shift direction now?
    AND why would our developers want to pursue that idea?

    Let's just move on in the direction already mapped.
    I'm ready and want to see where OUR developers would take this.

    Amiga is a dead issue.
    Cursed (might have even done in a hardy weasel like Barry Altman - God rest his soul).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.11.13 - 23:21
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Jim,
    Quote:

    Let's just move on in the direction already mapped.
    I'm ready and want to see where OUR developers would take this.

    Amiga is a dead issue.



    Though I do think there should be more cross compiling from third party developers. A lot of games and programs could/would/should work for all three platforms and that would automatically mean more potential revenues. Not much, granted, but having a little more income has to be better than to keep yelling "No! I'm not porting this for OS YYY because I only like OS ZZZ!".

    I don't think the Amiga is *dead* (terribly small and without commercial posibility maybe, but not dead). There is still so much love and will to push forward that we have 3 whole useful (more or less) OS's to choose from. What other OS from over 20 years ago can brag about that? BeOS? OS/2? I don't think so :-)
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »20.11.13 - 00:10
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    I actually dug out a copy of OS/2 to play around with an ISA video digitizer I had, but that OS can be tricky to find for download (Windows, unfortunately, is much easier).

    BeOS, Haiku, one of these days...

    I guess I was being a little hard on Amiga OS.

    And I don't see MorphOS developers unwilling to port to other NG OS' (now the other direction...).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.11.13 - 03:23
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    To parapharase the guy at Osnews.com: "the only place where something interesting is always happening when it comes to obscure OS developments is the Amiga camp."
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »20.11.13 - 12:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12113 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Maybe this guy is doing something...

    A year later:

    http://portingwx.blogspot.com/2013/12/game-over-play-again.html
  • »20.01.14 - 13:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    One blog entry for the entire year...
    Me thinks he is not trying that hard.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.01.14 - 16:18
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