MUI4 for OS4?
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1113 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Is that the same Steven Solie that also promised an OS4-netbook ?

    It may also be the Steven Solie who "has re-written the "C" language to make it more Amiga efficient" ;-)


    My God these people are morons.

    The blind led by the blind!
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  • »16.10.13 - 10:04
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    boot_wb
    Posts: 874 from 2007/4/9
    From: Kingston upon ...
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Steven Solie has made the claim that Hyperion's OS is going to get MUI4 just like MorphOS has.

    Anyone know if this is true or is it yet more BS from him?

    http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1748#p20204


    Quote:

    "However MUI4 we have already, but it will go from 4.2"


    Comment 7 (from Samo79, OS4 betatester)

    (Google translation)


    [ Edited by boot_wb 17.11.2013 - 13:39 ]
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  • »17.11.13 - 12:21
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    "These go to eleven..." - Nigel Tufnel

    Oh well, at least sometimes the OS4 community is good for a laugh.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »17.11.13 - 16:09
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Minuous
    Posts: 163 from 2010/2/12
    Why not just port ReAction, which has been the official GUI since 1999, instead of always stressing about MUI?
  • »27.11.13 - 02:51
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  • Fab
  • MorphOS Developer
    Fab
    Posts: 1331 from 2003/6/16
    Quote:

    Minuous wrote:
    Why not just port ReAction, which has been the official GUI since 1999, instead of always stressing about MUI?


    - Because it's too limited and awful to code with. Name us a couple relevant apps that are more than simple prefs editors or frontends? I can only think about Aweb itself... And maybe that OS4 dev tool. Anything else? Weird, isn't it?

    - Because MUI is the official toolkit in MorphOS, why should one bother about ReAction, when there's almost no app needing it anyway? And if one really wants, he can always install ClassAct classes on MorphOS anyway.

    - Is ReAction even "official"? I really wonder how one can consider 3.5/3.9 official. Piracy is also declared an official AmigaOS standard since they included a pirated TCP/IP stack then?
  • »27.11.13 - 03:53
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  • MorphOS Developer
    zukow
    Posts: 649 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Minuous wrote:
    Why not just port ReAction, which has been the official GUI since 1999, instead of always stressing about MUI?


    Yeah, Please, ask Hyperion to release the source code of Reaction. I don't know if Hyperion wants some cash for it but maybe 500$ will be ok considering its complexity.
  • »27.11.13 - 08:25
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    XzIt
    Posts: 250 from 2005/1/19
    From: Norway
    Without Mui MorphOS wouldt exist...

    No mui = LOL
  • »27.11.13 - 10:50
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Minuous
    Posts: 163 from 2010/2/12
    >Because it's too limited and awful to code with. Name us a couple relevant apps that are more than simple prefs editors or frontends? I can only think about Aweb itself... And maybe that OS4 dev tool. Anything else? Weird, isn't it?

    Well, I wouldn't call a program like AmiArcadia a simple prefs editor or frontend, it's AFAIK the most feature-complete emulator existing on MOS. With the possible exception of ports of generic multi-host emulators such as MAME.

    >Is ReAction even "official"? I really wonder how one can consider 3.5/3.9 official. Piracy is also declared an official AmigaOS standard since they included a pirated TCP/IP stack then?

    So someone made some libellous and presumably false allegation against H&P. Odd that it never went to court then if there was any substance to it. If they were a bunch of pirates do you really think they would have been running the Amiga No Piracy campaign? Various such allegations are always floating around the community in regard to most Amiga-related companies. Should I therefore believe the allegations floating around about Genesi stealing the AmigaOS 3.1 source code? According to your logic, I should. (Perhaps this explains the lack of OS3.5/3.9 support in MOS...) But I prefer to wait for hard evidence before jumping to conclusions.

    H&P were licenced by Amiga to produce these as official OS versions, so of course they are official. Anyway if one component of an OS is found to be in breach of some licence/contract, that doesn't mean the entire OS is suddenly unofficial. Eg. to use an example from a different platform, DoubleSpace technology in MS-DOS 6.0. According to such logic MS-DOS 6.0 is therefore unofficial...

    >Yeah, Please, ask Hyperion to release the source code of Reaction. I don't know if Hyperion wants some cash for it but maybe 500$ will be ok considering its complexity.

    I guess compared to something overly complex and bloated like MUI it's simple, yes. I doubt Hyperion would want to sell a key technology like that to their main rival. However it maybe be possible to acquire ReAction source from H&P or from the original developers. (In fact perhaps H&P has uploaded it to some warez site, after all they are just a bunch of pirates supposedly.) Frankly there seem to be only minor improvements in the OS4 ReAction compared to the OS3.9 ReAction.

    [ Edited by Minuous 13.12.2013 - 21:40 ]
  • »13.12.13 - 10:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12442 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > someone made some libellous and presumably false allegation against H&P.
    > Odd that it never went to court then if there was any substance to it.
    > [...] Various such allegations are always floating around the community
    > in regard to most Amiga-related companies. [...] I prefer to wait for
    > hard evidence before jumping to conclusions.

    Read there directly from the horse's mouth:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20050221085432/http://www.guru-group.fi/~too/amitcp.txt
    http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/amitcp392.txt
    http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2000-12-00114-EN.html

    > Should I therefore believe the allegations floating around about
    > Genesi stealing the AmigaOS 3.1 source code?

    You can easily deduce these allegations as nonsense (unless they involve a time machine in Genesi's possession):
    - MorphOS development start: 1998
    - initial MorphOS release: 2000
    - incorporation of Genesi: 2003

    > Perhaps this explains the lack of OS3.5/3.9 support in MOS

    There is an easier explanation:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9641&start=28

    > it maybe be possible to acquire ReAction source from H&P or from the
    > original developers. [...] there seem to be only minor improvements
    > in the OS4 ReAction compared to the OS3.9 ReAction.

    I don't know about the ReAction enhancements in OS4, but licensing an old ReAction version for MorphOS would surely result in a situation similar to the current MUI situation, only with the two operating systems reversed.
  • »13.12.13 - 12:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1113 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38546&forum=14
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  • »24.12.13 - 19:49
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Wow, MUI, Odyssey, a little more work and they'll have....a slightly slower version of our OS (without Reggae, TinyGL, etc.).

    I thought we were the party accused of copying.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.12.13 - 20:02
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  • Moderator
    guruman
    Posts: 461 from 2003/7/21
    As far as I can tell, it is just a fork of MUI. Our MUI4 (I'd say, to avoid confusion, the only MUI4) is version 4.2, copyrighted 2012 by Stefan Stunz. Their is 4.0, copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz. I'd also say that the internals of MUI4, which were completely and heavily rewritten, are completely different for this release. As far as I can tell, these are most of the functionalities of MUI4 needed for Odyssey and MPlayer built on top of MUI 3.9.
    As often happens, the usual inferior copy of MorphOS functionalities somebody else has to live with... ;-)

    But feel free to correct me.

    Kind regards,
    Andrea
  • »25.12.13 - 12:59
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    If this was Amiga.org or AmigaWorld someone would, then they would probably insult your penis size.
    But we tend to be above such silliness.

    Still, how is it again that we get accused of copying?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.12.13 - 13:48
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Jim

    I don't know about that. I think a lot of MorphOS users have a sadistic liking of downtalking AmigaOS 4 (like in the thread in question). You either keep pounding in your points to those people, or you try to be the bigger person. You can't have both.
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  • »25.12.13 - 17:24
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1113 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    If this was Amiga.org or AmigaWorld someone would, then they would probably insult your penis size.
    But we tend to be above such silliness.

    Still, how is it again that we get accused of copying?


    Becoz it teh reeel Jim! ;)
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

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  • »25.12.13 - 17:39
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2727 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    guruman wrote:
    Their is 4.0, copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz.


    The only public stable (non-beta) version of MUI that existed back in 2006 was MUI 3. A few (2?) public betas of MUI 4 was released after that over a few years before it formally arived in MorphOS 2.0 in mid-2008.

    That the info screen of the OS4 "MUI4" says:
    (C) 1992-2006 Stefan Stuntz
    (C) 2006-2013 Thore Böckelmann, Jens Maus

    ...means that this is *NOT* the MUI4 that Stefan Stuntz spent a few years developing post 2006, it's something else, developed by some others. And to confirm this, itix heard from an OS4 beta tester that this is something Hyperion built themselves on top of the MUI3.9 they bundle with OS4.

    Quote:

    I'd also say that the internals of MUI4, which were completely and heavily rewritten, are completely different for this release.


    Of course, they are simply not there, since the internals in OS4 "MUI4" is MUI3.9!

    Quote:

    As far as I can tell, these are most of the functionalities of MUI4 needed for Odyssey and MPlayer built on top of MUI 3.9.


    Indeed, that seems exactly how this is. It's MUI 3.9 with selected custom written third party classes added, and a "MUI4" sticker slapped on. A "bastard fork", that will (as itix says) always be a little left behind because Hyperion must wait new MorphOS SDK to be released in order to implement changes to their development tree.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »25.12.13 - 18:06
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Well ain't that gonna start a shit storm with the OS4 community.
    Hey, they need to get over themselves.
    So they copied something.
    There's a long tradition of that in OS development, ask Bill Gates.

    And we appear to be providing the bulk of the funding for the Odyssey port (which, come on, is the reason for this development in the first place).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.12.13 - 19:07
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  • Moderator
    guruman
    Posts: 461 from 2003/7/21
    Quote:

    guruman wrote:
    I'd also say that the internals of MUI4, which were completely and heavily rewritten, are completely different for this release. As far as I can tell, these are most of the functionalities of MUI4 needed for Odyssey and MPlayer built on top of MUI 3.9.

    After some quick investigation, I have to say it appears code is based on an early snapshot of MUI4 beta rather than on MUI 3.9, so internals are less different than I originally thought. But for the rest it is still partially reverse engineering on top of old code.

    Kind regards,
    Andrea
  • »25.12.13 - 20:58
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    In any case, it appears to have its primary purpose in allowing our community's developers to throw more pearls before swine.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.12.13 - 23:16
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1193 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Jim,
    Quote:

    Well ain't that gonna start a shit storm with the OS4 community.

    ...or alternatively, MorphOS developers get the blame for not "just handing over" the code, that OS4 developers promised to their users without having any access to it.

    Hey, we could go RiscOS route here! MorphOS has MUI4, OS4 could set their version number as 5, while MorphOS team works on MUI6 etc.!
  • »26.12.13 - 10:04
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Or we could just let it go since the OS4 community will seek to turn this against us somehow.
    Let them do as they will.
    In order to continue to update, they will need to follow our lead.
    And if its inferior to our implementation, that just leaves us looking all the better.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.12.13 - 10:58
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Tom01
    Posts: 187 from 2009/9/20
    MUI4 for AOS4 is like casting perls to the swines.
    They should stick to their Reaction crap.
  • »26.12.13 - 12:53
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    rebraist
    Posts: 96 from 2011/4/6
    From: Naples, Italy
    Really don't understand this hatred.
    Mui was born on Commodore Amigas as an extension/enhancement to its operating system.
    So what's the problem if it runs on Amiga Os4?
    It runs, in an opensource-clone way in Aros, and I think it's a blessing the three camps share such a good framework!
    Stuntz's idea was a great one, even after twenty years, and hyperion paid for it.
    I own all three amigoid systems and it's a good thing to have a similar behaviour on all three platforms when you come to MUI.
    You write once and use the same code (or very similar one) on three platforms. Great!
    Mac Mini g4 1,5 mos 3.1 registered
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  • »26.12.13 - 13:39
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