To the developers, with greatest love and affection

Its not hard, when you interact with enough of what remains of the Amiga community, to get the impression that the is a higher rate of mental deficiency amongst Amigans then is present in the general population.
This is not my own thought, but I'll leave it uncredited and just say that lately this seems very true.
While MorphOS has picked up new user recently, perhaps focusing on a dwindling market of increasingly eccentric individuals is not a model for sustained success.
And a significant percentage of these individuals already hold a bias against our OS.
Further, it has always baffled me why, after the initial rejection by the Amigatard community, Ralph and the rest of the developers didn't immediately retool the OS for the obvious business and industrial applications it could have had.
Hobbyist OS? Why?
Didn't you guys want to make money?
You've got a kernel that's as good as the one in Microware's OS-9.
If you strip MorphOS of Abox a make some changes you've got a damned good embedded OS.
With its compact size and modular nature I'm sure you could have scaled it anywhere from rommable systems to servers.

You have one of the few micro-kernel OS' that works really well and I don't think most people appreciate the accomplishment.

In the '80's I sold OS-9 systems and dabbled in Minix. Microware, if they'd had any brains, should have take the buy out offer Microsoft made them when CDi still looked viable.
And Minix? I firmly believe this is a better concept then the Linux kernel and it has gone almost nowhere. It doesn't even have a GUI yet.

So I look at what you've accomplished, and I wonder, why did you put so much of your hearts and souls, your hard effort and intellect in creating something this grand? To accept this?
Are you guys bitter?
And why not seek your vindication in success?

This project was not started to be a hobby.
You were selling a legitimate OS to a hardware vendor.

With big hopes for a future.

Why'd you let it go?

Jim

[ Edited by Jim 21.11.2012 - 00:52 ]

> it has always baffled me why [...] Ralph and the rest of the developers didn't
> immediately retool the OS for the obvious business and industrial applications
> it could have had. Hobbyist OS? Why? Didn't you guys want to make money?
> [...] If you strip MorphOS of Abox a make some changes you've got a damned
> good embedded OS.

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2005-01-00108-EN.html
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3220&forum=11&start=2
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3217&forum=11&start=2

;-)

> Minix [...] doesn't even have a GUI yet.

"In MINIX there are three window managers available: Tom's Window Manager, Joe's Window Manager and Equinox Desktop Environment. The first one, twm, is installed by default with the X.org package and the second and the third can be installed through the pkgin (tool to manage pkgsrc binary packages) utility."
http://wiki.minix3.org/en/UsersGuide/WindowManagers

Screenshot of MINIX 3 with twm:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Minix_3.png

Sorry for few inaccuracies Andreas, but you must admit Minix should have progressed further.
And, I'm sure many of you will consider that post inappropriate or over the top.

I'm sure the MorphOS team could be pictured as struggling along with a wounded warrior on their shoulders.

But make no mistake, that body is a corpse and maybe its time to throw it to the ground.

I'm not even sure I like most Amigans these days. Interacting with them is abrasive, they're opinionated, demanding, childish, and inconsiderate.

In business, in someone want to use you, at least you get paid.

If you guys are unsure how to move on this, and I have no idea what so ever why you would be, then there are some people we can talk to.

But you've put this off a long time.

Isn't it time to put away the hobbies?

[ Edited by Jim 21.11.2012 - 02:10 ]

> you must admit Minix should have progressed further.

MINIX has been created primarily for educational purposes so it's beyond any competitive pressure.

> I'm not even sure I like most Amigans these days.

What matters more is whether you like using AmigaOS (or rather MorphOS considering that we're on MorphZone here) these days :-)

> it has always baffled me why [...] Ralph and the rest of the developers didn't
> immediately retool the OS for the obvious business and industrial applications
> it could have had. Hobbyist OS? Why? Didn't you guys want to make money?
> [...] If you strip MorphOS of Abox a make some changes you've got a damned
> good embedded OS.

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2005-01-00108-EN.html
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3220&forum=11&start=2
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3217&forum=11&start=2


I'm sorry Andreas,
But those don't even come close to answering the questions I've mentioned.
And I've got a lot more.

>>> it has always baffled me why [...] Ralph and the rest of the developers didn't
>>> immediately retool the OS for the obvious business and industrial applications
>>> it could have had. Hobbyist OS? Why? Didn't you guys want to make money?
>>> [...] If you strip MorphOS of Abox a make some changes you've got a damned
>>> good embedded OS.

>> http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2005-01-00108-EN.html
>> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3220&forum=11&start=2
>> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3217&forum=11&start=2

> those don't even come close to answering the questions I've mentioned.

I think they (especially the first) could help answering some of your questions I quoted and replied to with those links.

MINIX has been created primarily for educational purposes so it's beyond any competitive pressure.

I've heard that excuse before and refuse to consider its validity as its value foe "educational purposes" is limited by its unique structure.

What matters more is whether you like using AmigaOS (or rather MorphOS considering that we're on MorphZone here) these days

What I'm worried about is is the butterfly ever going to hatch?

I'm sick of Amiga.

IAndreas_Wolf, Quote:


I promise to more carefully comb these, but right now as you might be able to tel I'm distracted by the loathing of our red "comrades".

@Jim

I remember reading some of those posts... I was very disappointed at the time, but my opinion is still the same. Since the early 90's the Amiga computer has been in a whirlpool of instability... actually all its life it has had to face tremendous obstacles just to find its niche and have success. What has kept any interest in the Amiga has been its community... Yes the technology was great in 1985. but it was the spirit of that time that still inspires us to use "Amiga" like technology. Morphos embodies that spirit exceptionally... Yes I would like to see a more mature Qbox...?? maybe a move away from the compatibility issues (32bit os)?? But I have no problem with the development that has gone on in the last 11 years I've been following this OS. Actually I'm amazed.... As far as community goes? two-edged sword for sure! And I will be around as long as I can until the end... even if I may duck out from time to time. Mos 1.4 was great. 1.45 was even more mature. Mos 2.0 Rocked!!! 2.4 & 2.7 opened new doors and opened Morphos to new users... and now Morphos 3.x has exploded on the scene when i didn't think we would see it. It's been a fun ride so far, I think there are more surprises awaiting us users. And there is nothing anyone can say that will make me stop enjoying this platform... its simply too good!! even Morphos haters that claim to be OS4 lovers...

@Jim

And why not seek your vindication in success?

Why care about the thing you call a "success"? Turning MorphOS (or rather Quark if I understand you well) into an embedded OS for industrial controllers would be the end of MorphOS in fact. It will be caught in a net of agreements, patents and lawyer fights.

[ Edited by Krashan 21.11.2012 - 12:02 ]

>> MINIX has been created primarily for educational purposes so it's beyond
>> any competitive pressure.

> I've heard that excuse before and refuse to consider its validity

It's not an excuse but a mere fact:

"MINIX is a Unix-like computer operating system based on a microkernel architecture created by Andrew S. Tanenbaum for educational purposes [...]. MINIX (from "mini-Unix") was first released in 1987, with its complete source code made available to universities for study in courses and research. [...] Andrew S. Tanenbaum created MINIX at Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam to exemplify the principles conveyed in his textbook, Operating Systems: Design and Implementation (1987). [...] Its licensing fee was very small ($69) compared to those of other operating systems. Although Tanenbaum wished for MINIX to be as accessible as possible to students, his publisher was not prepared to offer material (such as the source code) that could be copied freely, so a restrictive license requiring a nominal fee (included in the price of Tanenbaum's book) was applied as a compromise. This prevented the use of MINIX as the basis for a freely distributed software system. [...] In April 2000, MINIX became free/open source software under a permissive free software license, but by this time other operating systems had surpassed its capabilities, and it remained primarily an operating system for students and hobbyists."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX

> as its value foe "educational purposes" is limited by its unique structure.

Huh? Care to explain that?

>> What matters more is whether you like using AmigaOS (or rather MorphOS
>> considering that we're on MorphZone here) these days :-)

> What I'm worried about is is the butterfly ever going to hatch?

Depends on what exactly "hatching" implies for an OS in this case.

> I'm sick of Amiga.

If you're sick of using AmigaOS/MorphOS you should stop using it. Simple.

@Jim

Friend, there are a lot of bozos out there, self - labeled as Amiga users, but I can assure you that it wasn't like that in the past. For example, don't know if you remember, the scene explosion (that still burns within the heart of the Amiga platform, especially at 68k). It was the people behind the machines/programs that we enjoyed hanging around with and we still do. To me, MorphOS looks like it was created by Amiga artists and coders that carry over that flame. So, don't hate anything Amiga, because without that legacy we would be here :)

If you strip down MorphOS from anything Amiga, then you don't have MorphOS anymore, imho. I can't comment of its core aspects, for example I would love having smp, mp, >2GB Ram (especially mp) but I can live without these as well. I am mostly sure that a great portion of what you had described are doable but if MorphOS was to be specialized in a industry (i.e. embedded OS) it would need a financial back up from a real company (hardware vendor perhaps?). Otherwise, please let it continue being the same "hobby OS" that serves as our daily NG Amiga fix ;)

I actually agree Jim. We've already separated the wheat from the chaff, so it is now time to move on. If people in the Amiga Kommunity are not using MorphOS in 2012, they probably never will.

I love the compatability with legacy Amiga but I am very ready to break this to move forward. Scrap Abox and port Ambient to Qbox. Change some flags and recompile, should be easy

-Edit-
To be clear, I have no use for MorphOS as an embedded OS, just a desktop OS.

[ Edited by redrumloa 21.11.2012 - 08:05 ]

> Scrap Abox and port Ambient to Qbox.

Wouldn't there have to exist a QBox in the first place before you can port anything to it?

redrumloa,
Quote:

Sorry Red, that was just an example of where it could have had success, not something I desire either.

But it is time to move on.
Consider this, if Trevor Dickinson, instead of investing his money in motherboard development had funneled his money into our OS what could we have had?
These guys are remarkable coders, very efficient, and I'm sure we could have realized some of the end goals.
We're still being compared to OS4.1 and AROS, because the 3.1 API has been the developers focus.

There's a much broader potential market out there.
And given something more powerful, developers would find the OS more attractive.

Krashan,
Quote:

That was only one example of how a bigger, more profitable market could have been reached.

BTW - Glad to have a develop speak up.

How about if we define success not as monetary, but by the size of the installed base?


A more powerful MorphOS attracts more users, greater success.

Jim,
Quote:

Agreed. Only Trevor knows if he is happy with his investment. From my perspective it would have been much better spent on MorphOS.

Quote:

Very much agreed. They have done so much wtih little to no resources, amazing talents!

Quote:

Agreed. I have nothing against AROS but having any association with "AmigaOS" in 2012 and going forward is a huge anchor around our ankles.

O.k. so now lets just say MorphOS goes quark ....

Why should I care, if it's nothing of the OS I got so used to for the last decade (or 2 if I count prior AmigaOS-useage) ? And I'm talking both as a user and a hobbist developer.

Why should the embeeded world care about an OS that might have all the right buzzword but no real track-record when prooven alternatives are available (often even at no cost) ?

The real problem is how would one modernize MorphOS without loosing it's identity ? Cos the easiest (and most obvious) way of doing it what end up in borrowing technology from Linux&Co. Once you have those in place, why not port over user-land apps (since it's so easy now) ?

Once you start running QT,GTK etc on MorphOS your down to YALD.
Cos from a users POV:
NetBSD with a Gnome-desktop -> YALD
QNX running FireFox -> YALD
OS4 running Cygnix or TimberWolf -> YALD

And there are allready more then plenty real YALDs to choose from.

To both Kronos and Stefanos,
Some of those speculation just come from my business background and education. Ideas of what might have worked.
It bothers me when I see something really well made that isn't doing as well in the market as it could.

I don't expect the support for the Abox the fade.
In fact, with a GUI capable of displaying Abox and Qbox tasks simultaneously its utility could be enhanced.

I just think the focus has been on a market that has a lot of people who don't want or don't understand our OS. And worse yet, these mofos are rude.

And I don't want to see it grow into something else. If expanded, it still needs to be as compact and efficient as possible.
And we don't have to and probably won't be able to support all standards.

And here's another thing. Andreas mentioned that Qbox has to exist.
I'm almost certain Ralph has run at least a shell of it a some point, even if only as a proof of concept.

Postscript - "OS4 running Cygnix"
That was a great example, btw.
We don't ever want to have to rely on something like that to get software running.

[ Edited by Jim 21.11.2012 - 21:09 ]

redrumloa wrote:,
Quote:

I understand this sentiment, but I disagree that there are not more current and mostly former Amiga users who will become MorphOS users in the future. Yes, there are some Amiga users who have no interest in any form of Next Gen Amiga system and they are content to use their Windows, Linux, or MacOSX boxes for all of their modern computing needs, and just keep using their original Amiga computers, FPGA clones, or emulation to enjoy their Amiga software and games. They have little to zero interest in going forward, except for perhaps adding some new hardware features, such as USB, or new networking capabilities, or a new accelerator, if one is offered by any company, or individual. Some of them are interested in the FPGA Arcade Replay board, or they hope that the Natami will some day be produced and released for them to buy. But this does not mean that there aren't still hundreds, or thousands of former Amiga users who will regain interest in the Amiga and will see the progress that has been made with one or more of the Next Gen. Amiga platforms and join us going forward. I think everyone can agree that there are far more "Former" Amiga users, than there are current Amiga users, so the potential of gaining new users from these thousands of former Amiga users is much more likely than gaining new users from any other group, or from the general computing public. Even as advanced and smooth running as MorphOS3.1 is, it still can't compare to any of the main stream operating systems in performance, features, and mostly in available software.

MorphOS3.1 is really great and runs very fast and efficient, but it still has a way to go before it can be competitive with mainstream operating systems. It is getting closer with each release, and can be used as an alternative to any mainstream OS for many, or even most computing needs, but it still needs work.

Quote:

A very good point that a few people seem to be ignoring, or unaware of. The QBox was abandoned before it was begun, I think. AFAIK, the QBox was only a bunch of goals and ideas on paper, or text in a file that was discussed and shared between the MorphOS Dev. Team members. I have no inside knowledge to confirm this, so one or more of the MorphOS Dev. Team members would have to confirm or deny what I just wrote.

@Jim,

I don't think you are really sick of all Amiga users, but instead are frustrated with several vocal idiots who like to stir up trouble and spout nonsense (on other forum sites, luckily we have almost none of that crap going on here), and this has created a temporary reaction from you that you will soon get over.

David,

"@Jim,

I don't think you are really sick of all Amiga users, but instead are frustrated with several vocal idiots who like to stir up trouble and spout nonsense (on other forum sites, luckily we have almost none of that crap going on here), and this has created a temporary reaction from you that you will soon get over."

Yeah, but now I know why Piru isn't posting on Amiga.org.

This site doesn't even need moderators. We're civil.

> "OS4 running Cygnix" [...] We don't ever want to have to rely on something
> like that to get software running.

I'd prefer an X11 solution running on MorphOS over rebooting into another OS any time :-)

Kronos,
Quote:

Why are you guessing one would want to copycat Linux? I think Q should be A but a bit progressed (64 bit, full resource tracking, endianess independant, smp interface and maybe, maybe not, MP (debateable)). But the general architecture would be as close to current ABox API as possible (i.e. make required changes, but not everything new).

IMHO a move to Q is required/making most sense when MorpHOS goes another ISA. Just as I wrote on http://via.i-networx.de/q86.htm a while ago.

Oh good, humor.
I was beginning to lose my sense of it.
Thanks Andreas.

BTW - Wade all the way through those threads.
Since I'll never get direct answers, those were pretty good.
I really appreciated your presence and indexing ability. Thanks.

[ Edited by Jim 21.11.2012 - 21:43 ]

Zylesea,
Quote:

Hey, I think it makes sense even if we stay in this ISA.
If you wanted to run MorphOS on a multi-core/multi-thread e6500 you'd be using a fraction of the cpu.