what exactly is WarpUP?
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 298 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    "what exactly is WarpUP?"

    Hague and Partner's attempt to sell StormC.


    There were quite a lot WOS titles and utils, and that slight speed increase / less context switching has given it edge, no matter how much Phase 5 complained.

    I believed WOS was part of OS 3.9 (Hage again), so it kind of win, in the end.


    That's if you consider 3.9 to have been worthwhile at all. You could live quite happily without it, if you already had 64 bit aware versions of scsi.device and FastFileSystem. The rest was mainly a hodgepodge of unnecessary reworks of Amiga preferences in ReAction and some glowicons via enabled via slightly-less-hacky way. Only really worth it for the new HDToolbox and IconEdit. (Although the ppc-native picture.datatype did finally allow you to remap and dither pictures within seconds to an 8 bit screen rather than minutes. Pity many people didn't use 8 bit screens any more...)

    As Piru said, the context switching rigged demo that came with WOS was outed as a lie as soon as games compiled for WarpUp proved to have awful performance before being optimised to reduce context switches. At least one WOS proponent who I won't name (but whose name rhymes strongly with Steffen Hauesser... oops) was known to completely disable sound in his ports to reduce context switching without having to do any real work.

    Only real advantage of the whole affair was that eventually it became possible to use PUP under WOS with an emulation library and so users didn't need to worry about any of it any more.
  • »07.07.18 - 22:52
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    munk
    Posts: 94 from 2006/3/27
    Quote:

    Piru wrote:
    WarpOS/WarpUP had number of disadvantages: It had a non-standard binary formats, compilers and and tool, making it a technological dead-end.

    I do not think EHF was such a disaster, it fits quite well within the HUNK format. And H&P proved with (Storm)GCC, that it was possible to use a "standard" compiler to create EHF object files. FWIW, in 2004 I created a cross-compiler with their sources using Frank Willes pasm and vlink as tools. I successfully compiled mpega-libmad with it as CISC can certainly tell you. BTW, are current sources for mpega-libmad available somewhere?

    Recently I noticed that H&P added some EHF support to bfd and gas in their binutils. However, that support was not completed.
  • »09.07.18 - 20:59
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Piru
    Posts: 380 from 2003/2/24
    From: finland, the l...
    Quote:

    munk wrote:
    BTW, are current sources for mpega-libmad available somewhere?



    http://morphos-team.net/files/src/3.11/mpega.library.tar.bz2

    For some reason they're not linked on the home page in the correct section. I'll make sure to create a ticket to fix that.
  • »09.07.18 - 23:16
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    bennymee
    Posts: 71 from 2004/4/14
    From: Netherlands
    Quote:

    porneL wrote:
    WarpUP/WarpOS/powerpc.library is PowerPC kernel/subsystem for AmigaOS, made by Haage&Partner.

    It has basically the same function as original PowerUP/ppc.library from Phase5: running Amiga programs on PowerPC CPU.

    There is no third kernel for AmigaOS3. But there is more PPC kernels for classic Amiga - MorphOS's Quark and OS4's ExecSG.

    WarpOS is able to emulate PowerUP. MorphOS is able to emulate them both.



    I remember that it was more complicated with the WarpOS / PowerUP 'war' back then to get the right version of the software to run on your machine for the endusers.

    Why H&P invented their own kernel and not licenced PowerUp is strange.
  • »10.07.18 - 11:28
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 298 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    bennymee wrote:
    Why H&P invented their own kernel and not licenced PowerUp is strange.



    Probably due to ambitions to create a range of PPC accelerator boards or even full systems, starting with the Brainstormer G4. They had no intention of allowing Phase5 to control that niche by defining the PPC kernel standards.

    Of course, they completely underestimated the difficulty of designing a PPC board for Amiga and all that was left of their plans was division and a WarpOS that turned out to be absolutely useless to the OS4 guys when they picked it up.
  • »10.07.18 - 12:39
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 797 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Phase5 made working but overcomplicated HW with SW that worked within the limitation of that concept.
    (IMO a pure PPC with a super-minimal MorphOS-0.1 like emulation layer would have been the smarter idea even back than).


    I believe they have been deluded by Petro, that a pure PPC AmigaOS was "around the corner" and had to do this quick Frankenstein-like card redesign when Petros promises proved to be groundless. There was no time to write MorphOS-like solution (too many features would be missing). The minimal 0.4 version was ready not earlier than 2001 and the market was long gone by then (as well as phase5 itself).

    In Poland we have a phrase saying that "A drowning man will grab even a razor". That's basically what the weird two-CPU board design was - a razor for a sinking company the phase5 was back then.

    [ Edited by koszer 10.07.2018 - 13:50 ]
  • »10.07.18 - 12:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9790 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > ambitions to create a range of PPC accelerator boards or even full systems,
    > starting with the Brainstormer G4

    The start was a little less ambitious with the Brainstormer G3. And let me name the failed Predator Plus that arose from the failed Brainstormer G3/G4, and the failed Escena AmigaOne that arose from the failed Predator Plus :-)
  • »10.07.18 - 22:48
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 379 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Piru wrote:
    There was clearly a division between the PowerUP and WarpOS/WarpUP "camps" back in the day. Interestingly these divisions were carried forward in the MorphOS and OS4 "camps" almost as-is.

    I'll end this post with a classic quote that some might remember:

    Quote:

    ELF is a monster !!!


    :-)


    ELF format is a monster, I remember there were mixed 68k/PPC elfs even, like apple mixed PPC/x86 binaries during Intel transition.

    And elves are a bit of monsters!

    Thanks Piru. What is analogy? pUp guys went MOS, wOS guys went OS4? (I see warp datatypes and few thingies were endeed OS4 ported) >:)

    Well, none of pUp/wUp software does work on my x1000, even it is AOS PPC code it has quite lost relevance. If that ReWarp thingie is done, I might go back in time to explore!

    Since I live in not so rich area of Europe had just two friends who ever owned them and likewise wasnt much impressed. 060 impressed me more. And MorphOS as well. Too bad Amiga Inc made the wrong choice of picking Friendes brothers.

    Hope one day you could add support for the damned Nemo board aka A1-x1000.

    Also, any possibility of latest Odyssey getting 68k (Vamp) and OS4 branches? AROS too. Browser is our week knee, next to Office and Printing.

    [ Edited by vox 12.07.2018 - 23:06 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »12.07.18 - 22:04
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  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Leo
    Posts: 410 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:


    Thanks Piru. What is analogy? pUp guys went MOS, wOS guys went OS4? (I see warp datatypes and few thingies were endeed OS4 ported) >:)


    And they all went reimplementing the very same APIs (AmigaOS API + Cybergraphics + AHI + MUI,...), porting the very same apps, etc...

    What a waste.

    And now they are pretty much both in the same situation: locked on PowerPC hardware :)
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »12.07.18 - 22:30
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 379 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Leo wrote:
    Quote:


    Thanks Piru. What is analogy? pUp guys went MOS, wOS guys went OS4? (I see warp datatypes and few thingies were endeed OS4 ported) >:)


    And they all went reimplementing the very same APIs (AmigaOS API + Cybergraphics + AHI + MUI,...), porting the very same apps, etc...

    What a waste.

    And now they are pretty much both in the same situation: locked on PowerPC hardware :)


    Yup the circle is complete. "What if" efforts were joined, we ll never know, we can only thing of each sides strong points.

    However its good some things have become cross platform standards like MUI5,AHI, Odyssey ...

    As well as we got shared hardware at least in form of Peg2,SAM460ex and x5000. Sadly could be more if there was a better cooperation.
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »12.07.18 - 22:33
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1014 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Since I live in not so rich area of Europe had just two friends who ever owned them and likewise wasnt much impressed. 060 impressed me more. And MorphOS as well. Too bad Amiga Inc made the wrong choice of picking Friendes brothers.

    Technical considerations did not play a role in their choice. They were offered to get a PowerPC-native port of AmigaOS within months for a measly 25.000 EUR. Only to then get sued by their contractor and ultimately lose the intellectual property rights altogether.

    This gave a totally new meaning to "You get what you pay for."

    Quote:

    Hope one day you could add support for the damned Nemo board aka A1-x1000.

    Just buy a PowerPC Mac already. They cost a tiny fraction of an X1000.

    Quote:

    Also, any possibility of latest Odyssey getting 68k (Vamp) and OS4 branches? AROS too. Browser is our week knee, next to Office and Printing.

    Technically, AROS (on x86) uses a more recent Webkit version, which is an open source browser engine and can be ported by everyone who wants to. You are barking up the wrong tree, I am afraid.
  • »12.07.18 - 22:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9790 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I remember there were mixed 68k/PPC elfs even

    No, there were not.

    "Problem with ELF binary format was that [...] mixing PPC/68k code was not possible. Extended Hunk Format (EHF), developed by Haage & Partner, allowed mixing PPC and 68k code to single executable without modifying the existing system if PowerPC accelerator was not installed."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hunk#Extended_Hunk_format

    > I see warp datatypes [...] were endeed OS4 ported

    ...as well as to OS3/m68k and MorphOS.
  • »12.07.18 - 23:05
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 379 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Hope one day you could add support for the damned Nemo board aka A1-x1000.Just buy a PowerPC Mac already. They cost a tiny fraction of an X1000.


    That is less of a problem. I can get bare mini G4 for 40e, plus added value of Linux working out of box and macOS X. Problem is I do have x1000.

    Quote:

    Technically, AROS (on x86) uses a more recent Webkit version, which is an open source browser engine and can be ported by everyone who wants to. You are barking up the wrong tree, I am afraid.


    I dont see that one included in AROS 68k, or am I wrong? (not all AROS is equal). On OS4 situation is severe.


    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I remember there were mixed 68k/PPC elfs even

    No, there were not.


    As usual your memory and tech knowledge is right. If I missremembered it was ELF, I remember someone even did the mixed mode.



    [ Edited by vox 13.07.2018 - 00:16 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
  • »12.07.18 - 23:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9790 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> pUp guys went MOS, wOS guys went OS4?

    > they all went reimplementing the very same APIs
    > (AmigaOS API + Cybergraphics + AHI + MUI,...)

    Has AHI ever been reimplemented? I've been thinking the original implementation is used by both.

    > porting the very same apps

    Thanks to using and/or reimplementing the same APIs, porting between the two has been mostly a piece of cake, relatively speaking (if no proprietary APIs are used in addition) :-)
  • »12.07.18 - 23:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9790 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > They were offered to get a PowerPC-native port of AmigaOS within months
    > for a measly 25.000 EUR. Only to then get sued by their contractor

    Let's not forget that they sued their contractor first :-)

    >> any possibility of latest Odyssey getting 68k (Vamp) and OS4 branches?

    > Webkit [...] is an open source browser engine and can be ported by
    > everyone who wants to. You are barking up the wrong tree, I am afraid.

    I guess he refers to Odyssey v1.25 that comes with MorphOS 3.11 specifically. Is its source available to "everyone who wants to"?
  • »12.07.18 - 23:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9790 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I remember someone even did the mixed mode.

    And I even quoted who :-)
  • »12.07.18 - 23:42
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    munk
    Posts: 94 from 2006/3/27
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > [vox] I remember there were mixed 68k/PPC elfs even

    No, there were not.

    This is blatantly wrong! Check mpega_libmad for powerUP which is a shared library with the PPC part being an ELF file included _in_ the HUNK structure. This required an additional program (eg. Data2Object). This technique can be used for "normal" programs as well.
    With EHF you would prelink all PPC code with -r into a single object using a suitable linker (eg. vlink) which would then be used in the final link.

    Quote:

    "Problem with ELF binary format was that [...] mixing PPC/68k code was not possible. "
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hunk#Extended_Hunk_format

    Sometimes information on wikipedia is indeed wrong.
  • »13.07.18 - 08:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9790 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> I remember there were mixed 68k/PPC elfs even

    >> No, there were not. [...]
    >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hunk#Extended_Hunk_format

    > This is blatantly wrong! Check mpega_libmad for powerUP which is a
    > shared library with the PPC part being an ELF file included _in_ the
    > HUNK structure. This required an additional program (eg. Data2Object).
    > This technique can be used for "normal" programs as well.
    > Sometimes information on wikipedia is indeed wrong.

    Thanks for correction. I should have known better than to think that claims on Wikipedia going unchallenged for 7 years means they're probably true ;-)
  • »13.07.18 - 12:11
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    munk
    Posts: 94 from 2006/3/27
    Quote:

    Piru wrote:
    http://morphos-team.net/files/src/3.11/mpega.library.tar.bz2

    Thank you for providing access to the sources!

    Is the MorphOs team interested in changes for the amiga parts?
  • »16.07.18 - 18:08
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    munk
    Posts: 94 from 2006/3/27
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> I remember there were mixed 68k/PPC elfs even

    >> No, there were not. [...]
    >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hunk#Extended_Hunk_format

    > This is blatantly wrong! Check mpega_libmad for powerUP which is a
    > shared library with the PPC part being an ELF file included _in_ the
    > HUNK structure. This required an additional program (eg. Data2Object).
    > This technique can be used for "normal" programs as well.
    > Sometimes information on wikipedia is indeed wrong.

    Thanks for correction. I should have known better than to think that claims on Wikipedia going unchallenged for 7 years means they're probably true ;-)

    I did not check when this misinformation was entered in wikipedia, but apparently the impossible was done years before.

    Furthermore, there seems to be a very well hidden "secret": The last SAS/C patchset for PPC available on AmiNet added support for mixing m68k and PPC code in one executable for powerUP. This is a custom extension of the SAS/C compiler and had to be activated when compiling with scppc with the HUNKOBJ keyword (without this argument scppc produces normal ELF objects). There is little documentation for this feature thus using it is challenging, especially for a shared library, but nevertheless it can be done.

    I never checked the structure of the HUNKOBJ objects. It is probably possible to add some basic support for these objects to the amigaos binutils port.
  • »16.07.18 - 19:12
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