An Open Letter to Dave Haynie
  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Damn David,
    That's the harshest comments you've ever posted for that part of the community.
    I'll admit, I too am tiring of the slights coming from AOS4 fanboys.
    I had hopes that we might see some development across platforms, but so far I haven't seen much OS4 software I want to use.

    OS4 is developing really slowly and I hope the project doesn't fail. That would probably result in AInc.'s reacquisition of the AOS trademark.

    I'm not a big fan of Hyperion, but I like Bill McEwen even less.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »13.06.11 - 19:03
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    cha05e90
    Posts: 52 from 2010/6/23
    amigadave,
    Quote:

    Hyperion do not appear to have the talent, or money to purchase the talent, to improve their crippled OS, and I don't see that changing in the future.

    I also don't see their user base growing. The existing AOS4.x users are mostly people that are too embarrassed to admit that they made a bad choice and wasted too much money on inferior products and OS, when confronted with the reality of the other two choices, or three choices, if you consider staying with AmigaOS3.x & 68k based systems.


    ...still thinking about wether I'm part of your "mostly" crowd or not.

    Am I embarrassed? No. Do I have the feeling that I did something wrong by purchasing a SAM440ep with OS4.1? No. Do I have the feeling that OS4.1 is "crippled"? No. (BTW: When did you last use OS4.1, Dave?) Does it feel vastly inferior to MorphOS2.7 (especially on my Pegasos II, that runs both MorphOS and AmigaOS)? Another No.

    Will I start a rant, beginning with "It is people like Dave and a few other MorphOS2.x users that are really..."? No.

    What will I do instead? I will reboot this machine (Pegasos II currently running OS4.1 Update 2 with OWB while writing this post) into MorphOS to play some Quake III Arena online, 'cos 3D stuff is nicer under MorphOS. Hopefully I'll find someone with "dave" in their game handles - and frag'em... ;-)
    II/G4
  • »13.06.11 - 21:12
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2792 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    I forgot to add that most of them are also too embarrassed, or too stupid to realize and admit what a waste of money buying their weak, overpriced SAM hardware was. They can get very creative by inventing all kinds of justifications for why they chose a slower, less compatible system and OS that got stuck with the left-overs that the MorphOS Dev. Team decided were not worth using.

    Luckily, FAB took pity on the OS4 users and helped fix or write a version of OWB for them, so they would have a decent web browser to come here and try to spout their fantasies about how great their HyperionOS is.

    Edit: Last tried HyperionOS4.x late last year and no significant changes have been made since then. If you could comprehend my message, you would understand that I don't have a problem with the OS, it is the fanboys and Hyperion that I have a problem with.


    [ Edited by amigadave 13.06.2011 - 17:35 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »14.06.11 - 01:28
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> What would you've expected me to do or write then?

    > Pretty much what Koan and I have posted. Basically, "Dave, why haven't you
    > addressed the point of this thread?"

    I think he did address the point of this thread when he wrote:

    "I have no first-hand knowledge of ANY of the Phase V code going into MorphOS. The copyright issues certainly still apply -- if anyone studied, say, the Amiga Exec source code, then went and built their own clone, that would still violate copyrights. But I don't know that to be true either, and Ralph says it's not, so I'm more than happy to take him at his word."
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7824&start=61

    However, whether you're satisfied with this answer is another matter, given the fact that Ralph's word on this was published a decade ago.
  • »14.06.11 - 03:34
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
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    NO.

    I'm not satisfied with that answer in any way, shape, or form.
    It doesn't repudiate his comments (so recently repeated) and it slights Ralph's reputation by claiming to differ to his word.
    It was an off hand, dismissive, condescending statement and it in no way makes up for years of unsupported accusations.

    You've finally managed to disappoint me Andreas.

    [ Edited by Jim 14.06.2011 - 03:57 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.06.11 - 03:54
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The thing that annoys me about MorphOS is THOSE who choose
    > MorphOS DIDN'T choose to also LEAVE the Amiga world.

    Huh? MorphOS (via its ABox) is an AmigaOS 3.1 API compatible and (limited) binary compatible OS, so choosing MorphOS is choosing to stay in the "Amiga world" by definition (well, my definition of that term at least).

    > If I had been brave enough to walk a new path I would have also had the
    > courage and willingness to create something completely new and seperate,
    > so from my point of view I really don't get you MorphOS types.

    Yes, it's obvious that you don't get what the motivation to create MorphOS was in a time without any API and/or binary compatible upgrade path from m68k based OS3. Ironically you seem to have no problems getting the OS4 "types", who were late to the "binary compatible upgrade path from m68k based OS3" party, while the only conceptual advantage OS4 has over MorphOS is bearing the "Amiga" name. Some may even argue that isn't an advantage any more.

    > I just don't understand why you'd want to do that to the very thing you loved?

    Do *what* exactly?

    > ...staying with the girl 100%. [...] it's probably what some of you would
    > have preferred for yourselves

    Yes, that's even what the father of MorphOS would have preferred (see negotiations with Amiga Inc. to make MorphOS the official AmigaOS 4 a decade ago).

    > it won't return until someone like me opens there own forum.

    Yes, it's no secret that you would like to delete everything that doesn't follow your line of thought.
  • »14.06.11 - 04:11
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > NO. I'm not satisfied with that answer in any way, shape, or form.

    As I said, that doesn't change the fact that he did address the point of this thread, which is what you gainsaid. Let's have a look at what the point of this thread actually is:

    "I'd like you to put up and present your evidence to the public. [...] Alternatively you can of course retract your claims."

    What I quoted from him sounds to me like a modest attempt at retracting his claims. I don't know his motivation though to suddenly believe Ralph's clarification when he hadn't done so for a whole decade.

    > It doesn't repudiate his comments (so recently repeated) and
    > it slights Ralph's reputation by claiming to differ to his word.

    Maybe I have a language problem here but to me "take him at his word" means the opposite to "differ to his word".

    > You've finally managed to disappoint me Andreas.

    I've done so several times before and you let me know each time. Not that I care much, though.
  • »14.06.11 - 04:27
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > When I first heard about MorphOS I just thought why.

    When was this? People who heard the first time about MorphOS after OS4 was announced or even released might have thought that, unaware of the fact that MorphOS development start (and release of the first public version) happened long before OS4 was announced.

    > if anything AmigaOS has suffered because of the MorphOS and
    > perhaps somewhat from AROS coming in to being

    I believe that without MorphOS there wouldn't be OS4.
  • »14.06.11 - 04:51
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > license of AmigaOS4 explicitly forbid running AmigaOS4 on anything
    > else but AmigaOne branded systems (or classics with PPC)? Those
    > terms coming from the then-rightsholders of "The Name"

    I don't think that's true. The Micro-A1 was never an "AmigaOne" branded system yet OS4 has run officially on it.
  • »14.06.11 - 12:16
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
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    > FAB [...] helped fix or write a version of OWB for them, so they would have
    > a decent web browser to come here and try to spout their fantasies about
    > how great their HyperionOS is.

    I doubt that any of them used this still unreleased OS4 version of MUI-OWB to write here in this thread.
  • »14.06.11 - 12:35
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
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    >Maybe I have a language problem here but to me "take him at his word" means the opposite to "differ to his word".

    Yes, this is only a qualified statement rather then an absolute.

    >> You've finally managed to disappoint me Andreas.

    >I've done so several times before and you let me know each time. Not that I care much, though.

    I wouldn't say several, but in this case I think you've let Haynie off way too easy.
    "Not that I care much, though."
    Ouch.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.06.11 - 13:30
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> to me "take him at his word" means the opposite to "differ to his word".

    > this is only a qualified statement rather then an absolute.

    Yet it addresses the point of this thread, which was my point.

    > I wouldn't say several

    I think there were at least two incidents before where you expressed your disappointment with something I had said.

    > Ouch.

    You should know by now that I won't change my view of things just because it causes disappointment in someone else. Generally speaking, what it takes to make me reconsider my stance is hard facts or real arguments.
  • »14.06.11 - 15:13
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    koan
    Posts: 303 from 2005/11/21
    From: UK
    Andreas_Wolf,

    Dave said,
    Quote:

    "The copyright issues certainly still apply..."


    That quote from Dave was hardly unequivocal. I would describe it as conditional and unconvincing. If he was truly contrite it would include the words "I'm sorry..." or "I regret...".

    Ralph clearly said that the AmigaOS API was well known and that is what was used to develop MorphOS. The only reason to bring up clean room design in the middle of this half-apology is to express scepticism.

    If Harry or Ralph believe that this was sufficient apology then they should post here to accept and we can finish the thread.
  • »14.06.11 - 19:44
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2792 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    @koan,

    I agree that Dave's message was not an apology, but I also believe that he will never offer such apology, in public or private. He obviously has some kind of personal issue against MorphOS, or some of the MorphOS Dev. Team members.

    He has lost what little respect I ever had for him (not that he will lose any sleep over that fact).
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »14.06.11 - 21:48
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    koan
    Posts: 303 from 2005/11/21
    From: UK
    @amigadave

    I think it's a case of sour grapes. BPlan+MorphOS succeeded where Pios+pOS failed.

    "Amiga-like" computing is now a hobbyist's market.

    OS4 runs on SAM: expensive and underpowered, or X1000 that is planned to have a CPU that is already beyond EOL: what madness is this?

    MorphOS runs on cheap, reasonably powerful Apple hardware that will continue to be around for at least a few years. Like it or not MorphOS is at least on a technological par with OS4, if not better.

    Only irrational minds would choose OS4 without any consideration to MorphOS.
  • »14.06.11 - 22:52
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
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    Koan, Amigadave thanks.
    Whether or not Andreas was satisfied, Dave's statement was trite at best.
    Harry's never likely to receive his apology, but Dave could have admitted he was wrong rather than just take "Ralph's word".
    And the persistent mention of clean room reverse engineering means we probably haven't heard the end of this.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.11 - 00:56
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11609 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Ralph clearly said that the AmigaOS API was well known and that is
    > what was used to develop MorphOS.

    Yes, and Dave Haynie says he finally believes his word, after a decade of not believing it for whatever reason.
  • »15.06.11 - 02:32
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2792 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    I think that DH will probably let this die down for another 5-10 years before he implies the same allegations again. He knows that to pursue it any further now, without any proof, would only hurt his own reputation further.

    He has done what ever damage he intended to do and has no need to clear it up, or discuss it any further.

    [ Edited by amigadave 14.06.2011 - 20:30 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »15.06.11 - 04:28
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
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    Except Ralph worked for Phase5 and Dave hasn't recanted the "What Andy saw" story, so he can still argue that Ralph may have had prior access to AOS code and therefore MorphOs does not meet a "clean room" development spec.

    [ Edited by Jim 15.06.2011 - 04:31 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.11 - 04:30
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    boot_wb
    Posts: 874 from 2007/4/9
    From: Kingston upon ...
    koan,
    Quote:

    Only irrational minds would choose OS4 without any consideration to MorphOS.


    Only irrational minds would choose any Amiga-like OS currently ;-)

    @Thread

    Thread seems to have gone a bit downhill imho in terms of referring to OS4 users disrespectfully.

    As with MorphOS users (and AROS users, and any other group) it's not constructive or valid to make such generalisations. IMO some of the attitudes expressed in this thread give validity* to anyone who wishes to generalise about MorphOS users as name-calling trolls.

    Hey, wake up! They're not all name-following fanboys. Just like we are not all pirating name-calling trolls out to destroy Hyperion just for having the temerity to exist and get the rights** AmigaOS name/sources.

    (* As much validity as the generalisations expressed in this thread)
    (** Whatever your views on the validity, they do have the de facto rights).

    PS - The only Amiga-like OS I run is MorphOS, so go figure..
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  • »15.06.11 - 12:25
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    cha05e90
    Posts: 52 from 2010/6/23
    Quote:

    PS - The only Amiga-like OS I run is MorphOS, so go figure..

    Really? I mean: Reeeeally? No E-UAE/WinUAE on your Mac or Win machines running OS1.x-3.x every now and then? :-)
    II/G4
  • »15.06.11 - 18:24
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
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    @ cha05e90,

    >No E-UAE/WinUAE on your Mac or Win machines running OS1.x-3.x every now and then?

    No! I have three windows based computers I haven't even fired up in a couple weeks.

    >The only Amiga-like OS I run is MorphOS

    Seconded
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.06.11 - 20:42
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    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Quote:


    Really? I mean: Reeeeally? No E-UAE/WinUAE on your Mac or Win machines running OS1.x-3.x every now and then?



    I dont run UAE on my machines either. For gaming the real Amiga 500 is the best machine.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »16.06.11 - 10:41
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    hooligan
    Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23
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    Quote:

    . For gaming the real Amiga 500 is the best machine.


    sofa, cold beer*, 42" tv, ps3, amiga-emu = winning compo ;-)


    (*)can be replaced with a prefered bewerage
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  • »16.06.11 - 12:55
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