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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > you are a bot.

    Seems the other half of your split personality disagrees with you:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=5724&start=40
  • »23.06.11 - 11:42
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4788 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Yes, having to log in to view the PDFs is a pain since you can't link to them when creating posts. I'm having trouble locating one of the files Andreas asked about, but I've sent him the others.
    And I've put in a request for the file I couldn't locate.
    they should respond by tomorrow.
    I've been really busy at work, so I haven't had a chance to review them.
    Can't wait to see what Andreas picks out that's note worthy.
    These files along with the announcement of the new processor really have me stoked.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.06.11 - 03:16
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I'm having trouble locating one of the files Andreas asked about, but I've sent
    > him the others. And I've put in a request for the file I couldn't locate. they
    > should respond by tomorrow.

    Thanks for your efforts. It's really appreciated.

    > Can't wait to see what Andreas picks out that's note worthy.

    ;-) I've yet to have a look at them but will do so ASAP.*

    > These files along with the announcement of the new
    > processor really have me stoked.

    They have despite the fact that Freescale underdelivered compared to what you had hoped for? ;-)


    * Addendum:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=665

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 24.06.2011 - 05:41 ]
  • »24.06.11 - 03:38
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > I'd really like to know what the improvements of the
    > updated AltiVec are.

    Page 12 of FTF11_NET_F1176 document mentions "Improved load /store to ease bit alignment" and "New instructions for video analytics".

    Edit: Now also there:
    http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/brochure/PWRARBYNDBITSSKD.pdf (page 3)
    http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/brochure/PWRARBYNDBITS.pdf (page 59)

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 27.03.2012 - 19:39 ]
  • »24.06.11 - 05:18
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4788 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >> These files along with the announcement of the new
    >> processor really have me stoked.

    >They have despite the fact that Freescale underdelivered compared to what you had hoped for? ;-)



    Oh YES! Between this and the new developments at IBM (and Nintendo) I really excited to see PPC processor development advancing. For all those naysayers that said this was a dead ISA, things sure seem to be moving along nicely.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.06.11 - 21:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1888 from 2003/6/4
    APM announced a new ppc NAS processor, too.
    The APM86491 - Key features: 1.2 GHz 465 core, 256 kb L2 cache, 2x usb 3.0, 2x SATA, 2x Gb Ethernet, 2 x PCI Express, 2.5 W energy uptake, 20 US$ in bulk volume.

    http://phx.corporate-ir.net/preview/phoenix.zhtml?c=78121&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1576895&highlight=

    While designed for NAS boxes, this may also be used for a small low cost low end, low cost computer if you attach a video and audio codec to it.

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 25.06.2011 - 01:51 ]
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »25.06.11 - 00:49
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > APM announced a new ppc NAS processor, too. The APM86491

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=671

    ;-)
  • »25.06.11 - 01:42
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1888 from 2003/6/4
    Care to elaborate what you wanna tell with your link? I see the Sam460 specs only...
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »25.06.11 - 09:07
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Care to elaborate what you wanna tell with your link?

    Yes, of course. It is meant to take you to a three day old posting of mine where I reported the announcement of the APM86491.

    > I see the Sam460 specs only...

    I guess you're using MorphZone with reversed posting order then. Unfortunately, the MorphZone upgrade from some months ago destroyed the facility to link to a particular posting regardless of the selected posting order. In this regard, the upgrade was more of a downgrade actually. I could give you a direct link using reversed order and the new 'showonepost' facility but this only works for postings on page #1 of a thread so as soon as my posting drops to page #2 due to new postings in the thread the link will stop working. This is the same with my 'post_id' plus fragment identifier links I used before the upgrade. So unfortunately, my MorphZone interlinks can only work with non-reversed posting order. This also means that all my older interlinks from before the upgrade don't work anymore. What I could do to work around this problem is to hardcode the non-reversed posting order in my links like this:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=671&sortorder=0

    This should take you to the right posting (does it?) but may confuse you because of the non-reversed order, i.e. reversed compared to the way you chose to view threads here on MorphZone.
  • »25.06.11 - 11:18
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1888 from 2003/6/4
    Yor link for reversed order works and that inks of course makes sense.
    The ordering thing is indeed pretty confusing. Probably I should switch to no reversed order in my settings.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »26.06.11 - 01:05
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2552 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    For all those naysayers that said this was a dead ISA, things sure seem to be moving along nicely.


    *IT IS* a dead architecture for all purposes interesting to MorphOS; it makes little to no sense to run MorphOS on a NAS, Switch or a Printer... ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »26.06.11 - 09:32
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it makes little to no sense to run MorphOS on a NAS, Switch or a Printer... ;-)

    ...or a gaming console for that matter ;-)
  • »26.06.11 - 10:10
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 363 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    *IT IS* the only architecture for all purposes interesting to MorphOS;


    I fixed it for you.

    Or have the developers said otherwise?
  • »26.06.11 - 11:35
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2552 from 2003/2/24
    @minator

    No need to "fix" anything. AFAIK, *nobody* is building viable and affordable PPC desktop and/or laptop motherboards, because simply there is no point, and I see no reason whatsoever to believe this will change. The PPC Macs were the last of its kind, Apple *was* the PPC desktop/laptop market, and when they left it behind, they left it with no pulse, no future. But I'm sure these new CPU's will make excellent routers and printers or whatever...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »26.06.11 - 13:25
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4788 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    @ takemehomegrandma,

    While i appreciate your opinion, and consider the point about affordable PPC based computers valid, I seriously disagree with you on the potential of these new CPUs.
    Have you checked the specs on them? They're hardly limited to use in routers and printers.
    Did you notice the quote Andreas mentioned on AltiVec enhancement?

    >Page 12 of FTF11_NET_F1176 document mentions "Improved load /store to ease bit alignment" and "New instructions for video analytics".

    Instructions designed for video are not intended for router or printer applications.

    To be sure, high volume, affordable PPC motherboards seem to be a thing of the past. But Acube is making PPC boards. Aeon is (sooner or later) supposed to be making PPC boards.
    And these new processors are more powerful than the APM processors used in the Acube boards and more then powerful enough to suit our purposes.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.06.11 - 17:17
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 363 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    No need to "fix" anything. AFAIK, *nobody* is building viable and affordable PPC desktop and/or laptop motherboards



    I wasn't talking about any of that. I was merely pointing out that the MorphOS devs haven't publicly said anything about any other architecture.

    Actually I entirely agree, the CPUs may be perfectly usable but until someone does a PPC beagleboard any new boards are going to be far too expensive to be interesting.


    Edit: Wrong quote, fixed.

    [ Edited by minator 26.06.2011 - 20:17 ]
  • »26.06.11 - 18:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The PPC Macs were the last of its kind

    I think the PowerStation was it. Complete 2.5 GHz quad-core G5 machine for 1250 USD seemed like a nice deal, being both viable and affordable.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=145
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=137
  • »26.06.11 - 20:08
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2552 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    I seriously disagree with you on the potential of these new CPUs.


    Tech specs of these CPU's couldn't be more irrelevant when nobody is going to use them to try to create a viable PPC desktop market (and why would anyone want to do that? Madness!)

    Quote:

    Acube is making PPC boards. Aeon is (sooner or later) supposed to be making PPC boards.


    I'm sorry, but some guys building a few batches x30 boards at a per unit price of a used car doesn't really count. If that's your idea of a future, then it would be better to spare everyone the misery and take down the sign and close the shop right now.

    It's dead, Jim.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »26.06.11 - 20:41
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4788 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    @ takemehomegrandma,

    Your perspective is fueled by your desire to see a change in ISAs.
    Since we haven't received Powerbook or G5 Mac support, there is still plenty of room for expansion.
    I'll license either model (maybe both).
    We don't need to consider an ISA change for at least a couple years.
    And who knows what will happen during that period.

    With IBM and Frescale's continued focus on further development of Power architecture, my vote is that we stay where we are.
    Like X86 needs yet another alternative OS.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.06.11 - 00:06
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Like X86 needs yet another alternative OS.

    I don't believe the proponents of an ISA change for MorphOS think that any other ISA needs MorphOS but rather that MorphOS needs to support another ISA.
  • »27.06.11 - 00:27
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4788 from 2009/1/28
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    I myself wouldn't mind an ARM port.
    But the developers only have so much time available and right now there is no ARM processor as powerful as a G5.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.06.11 - 00:40
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2552 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Your perspective is fueled by your desire to see a change in ISAs.


    No, I couldn't care less what CPU MorphOS runs on, as long as it will continue to be developed in the future for a HW platform that has some kind of pulse. So it's really the other way around; my desire to see a change in ISA comes from my perspective that PPC is dead.

    Quote:

    We don't need to consider an ISA change for at least a couple years.


    "We"? Perhaps not you and me, but a "proper" migration (in parallel to the "normal" development) would probably take a couple of years at the current "hobby development pace", so an ISA change is something I hope the developers has already decided upon some time ago already.

    Quote:

    right now there is no ARM processor as powerful as a G5.


    But right now there are ARM processors capable of giving the user a generally faster experience than Efika 5k2, which many MorphOS users (including me) already feels is more than adequate for most usages, and playing any kind of media files you throw at it in 1080p through HW acceleration on top of that, which I think would be the main selling point for G5 to general users, but without the heat and noise. So that is already covered. And you can buy new HW as well, from more than one manufacturer, and it's really cheap. Perfect for a hobby platform. And the future ARM evolution is very interesting, probably the most interesting and dynamic of all architectures right now, with the architecture going through a transition far into territories it hasn't been in before. I read somewhere that more and more laptop manufacturers are considering building ARM machines in the future, when coming generations of ARM CPU's are released, and Windows 8 is released for it. It won't be any shortage of cool HW.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »27.06.11 - 08:08
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10303 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > ARM [...] architecture going through a transition far into territories
    > it hasn't been in before.

    You mean like the "general desktop arena"? ;-)
  • »27.06.11 - 11:32
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4788 from 2009/1/28
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    The problem with all of these discussions about "cool hardware" or what "ought to be supported" is the time required to create the port and the likely lifetime of the target platform.
    ARM is mutating faster than a virus and what is current now will be dead in only a year or two.
    Also there's a great deal f variation in platforms. What do you support? The choice would be crucial as (just as in AROS' case) it would not be possible to support all the hardware available.

    Right now we have equipment that is low priced and performs more than adequately.
    The G5 will greatly increase our processing power with a negligible increase in cost.
    At this point we still have at least a couple of years before we need to worry about moving to another ISA.

    I would hope that the developers are thinking about what their future plans will entail.
    But, since the choices to be made will be crucial to the success or failure of MorphOS, these choices need to be made very cautiously.

    I for one am very satisfied with the direction the development team has chosen to follow. We have well made, highly available, low cost hardware that works and performs quite well. The useful life span of the Apple hardware we're using has proven to be quite long. Even now, the performance of a G5 system is still relatively competitive.

    Once the move is made to another ISA, will the target system(s) have similar longevity?

    I'm not disagreeing with any of your point. I'd only advise caution as the decisions to be made are vital to our success or failure.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.06.11 - 14:39
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4788 from 2009/1/28
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    So Andreas, now that you've had time to look a the preliminary data on the new AMP T4240 with its e6500 multihreading core, what do you think?
    Is the PPC dead?
    Is this device unsuitable for desktop use?
    Without SMP, I can't see MorphOS making much use of this, but I would like to see a Linux implementation.
    Just a dual core model would allow four concurrent threads, with enhanced Altivec support, and 64 bit addressing.

    Virtualization has come to the PPC in a big way with this one.
    Maybe some clever tweaking of Quark could allow multiple copies of MorphOS to run at the same time.

    [ Edited by Jim 27.06.2011 - 18:29 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.06.11 - 18:14
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