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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    jcmarcos wrote:
    Great! Let's make our own computer then!


    Oh no! Andreas, what do you think?
    If someone want to step up and pitch in ten grand or so, we can start slogging through the manufacturers datasheet and compile the massive amount of detailed info need just to start.

    But, I'm not playing that game with MY money. How about yours?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »29.12.10 - 21:01
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Let's make our own computer then!

    > Andreas, what do you think?

    See my answer to jcmarcos' suggestion.

    > If someone want to step up and pitch in ten grand or so, we can start slogging
    > through the manufacturers datasheet and compile the massive amount of
    > detailed info need just to start.

    I don't think jcmarcos referred to designing a new board but rather to using existing eval boards in order to build new Power Architecture based computer systems.
  • »29.12.10 - 21:12
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> Let's make our own computer then!

    > Andreas, what do you think?

    See my answer to jcmarcos' suggestion.

    > If someone want to step up and pitch in ten grand or so, we can start slogging
    > through the manufacturers datasheet and compile the massive amount of
    > detailed info need just to start.

    I don't think jcmarcos referred to designing a new board but rather to using existing eval boards in order to build new Power Architecture based computer systems.


    Oh! I get it now. He's never priced a PPC evaluation board.
    Remember the $4000 I was quoted for the FreescaleHPCN-MPC8641D (Matt said he got his during the period they were 'discounted' to the oh so affordable price of $2000)..

    Why aren't PPC evaluation board commonly used to build practical systems?
    I'll avoid posting this in the caps I want to use, because they're too damned expensive!.
    The odd thing is I got the impression (after a lot of work) that if I was serious about producing something with their product, Freescale would have given me the layout files and design info.

    That's kind of why I was curious about jcmarco's comment about building a computer.
    Semiconductor manufacturers don't want to sell you motherboards (those are design examples - proof of concept). They want to sell you the components to populate motherboards.

    This is where we need someone as foolhardy (in a kind of admirable way) like Treavor who is willing to take a potential loss on a vanity project.

    I really DID think he meant "build a computer". Believe it or not I've been around long enough for that to really mean to me "design, finance, build and sell" a computer. I've been part of that kind of operation before and you can take a royal shellacking on it.

    I think you were right when you first mentioned that we'd end up with something as expensive as the X1000 (which I like, but will never buy).

    This is where ARM starts to look seductive. Remember the last ARM evaluation board I mentioned to you? $200!
    Find me a $200 PPC board (let alone a manufacturers evaluation board).

    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/30 2:37 ]

    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/30 2:38 ]

    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/30 2:39 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.12.10 - 02:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    xyphoid
    Posts: 870 from 2008/7/11
    From: Delaware, USA
    I like my arm 800ghz coby kyros which l just got for under 150US$. I say later with the old stuff but we may have missed porting to mobile devices. As for X1000...it's a hugh move but hey it's something. AOne had it's run at long awaited supporters too. Right now whatever hobby works for whoever.
    can't complain till I'm more of a contributer. ;-)
  • »30.12.10 - 04:13
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Oh common man. Of course you can complain. You come from the State I live in, You know our country men. Americans have refined complaint to an art form.
    You can complain, but who'll listen?

    That's where you have to respect the contributors (which now that I think about it - I can't consider this post to be a part of)..
    Sorry.

    The ARM system sounds interesting. <$150! Neat.

    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/30 4:33 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.12.10 - 04:31
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Quote:

    I don't think jcmarcos referred to designing a new board



    Oh yes I did! I wanted also to point out my frustration about how much easier is to make you own computer with other CPU architectures... It's a pity PowerPC is so expensive and hard to source. Maybe every PowerPC provider sucks?

    Quote:

    rather to using existing eval boards.


    Well, that's how the Pegasos started. You buy a single eval board, and blatantly copy it for you new computer. In the process, you will be tempted to add some bits you want, and remove others you don't.

    (I can feel the audience's boredom at rading this - OK! :-D)

    Quote:

    He's never priced a PPC evaluation board.


    Sure, but I know these toys are expensive. BUt why on earth do I have to stand that a Beagleboard costs just a hundred bucks? It actually IS an evaluation board, for god's sake. Why can't we PowerPC lovers have the same treatment? And yet again, how the hell does LimePC do what they do?

    Quote:

    the $4000 I was quoted for the FreescaleHPCN-MPC8641D


    Many people would devote those four grands to anything else but hardware you are not going to see in the market. By the way, you mentioned ten grand, are you saying that's enough to make a new computer out of nothing (plus an eval board to copy, of course)?

    Quote:

    That's kind of why I was curious about jcmarco's comment about building a computer.


    I was hoping for someone to stand up with those ten grand. It's Christmas after all, the time for miracles. Oh boy, I've just realized the world is in crisis.

    Quote:

    Semiconductor manufacturers don't want to sell you motherboards (those are design examples - proof of concept). They want to sell you the components to populate motherboards.


    And most of them, if you ask for less than a zillion units, just don't hear you. Legitimate, but hurting, don't you think? Then, a different provider treats you better, and you end up building a different computer. You also wave goodbye forever to the first provider, giving them your "best" wishes.

    Quote:

    This is where we need someone as foolhardy like Trevor


    Oh, fantastic: Has he (or better say, the people he has convinced) some ten grand left for us? By the way, you weren't around back ni the age when Genesi WAS MorphOS, were you.

    Quote:

    we'd end up with something as expensive as the X1000


    Nope, there's chips out there for something cheaper. Remember the original Efika. Only, this time, with the MPC8610, or something similar. But then, some crook asks you four grand for a single unit. Can you keep any desire left to build a computer around that CPU? Go figure. Jeez, freescale should be giving away eval boards for their products!

    Quote:

    This is where ARM starts to look seductive.


    Want a surprise? That's exactly what freescale thought: Instead of making PowerPC (your key market) accesible for developers, you switch to ARM. Of course people who've been there for years like Samsung and Texas instruments are sissies you can easily defeat.

    quote]Remember the last ARM evaluation board I mentioned to you? $200![(quote]

    Would you pleas stop torturing me already? :-D
  • »30.12.10 - 10:48
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    Jim schrieb:

    This is where ARM starts to look seductive. Remember the last ARM evaluation board I mentioned to you? $200!
    Find me a $200 PPC board (let alone a manufacturers evaluation board).



    The MPC 5125 eval board is 119 US$ ( http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=TWR-MPC5125-KIT&fsrch=1&sr=3 ), but is intended for usage with the Freescale Tower system. While the 5125 is probbaly not what you had in mind, I still rate it one of the most interesting ppcs out there. Sure, it is very low end, but has a very competetive price tag and MorphOS on a e300/400 runs okay.
    But situation is, nobody comes around willing to invest making a 50 US$ low end board happen and the MorphOS-Team would probably be not too euphoric about an e300 again. But if you wanted to do a actually sellable ppc system the 5125 would be pretty high on my list. The 86xx ship unfortunately has more or less sailed, next chance for a modest powerful ppc system will be with the Altivec enabled QorIQs, but it will take a litle time until they arrive.

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea an 2010/12/30 12:17 ]
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »30.12.10 - 11:14
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    No Zylesea, theMPC 5125 eval board wasn't even close to what I was thinking off, but you've got a point. There are a few low cost evaluation boards, they just don't include the kind of processor I like to use.

    OK! jcmarcos! You did mean what I thought you meant. That's cool.
    I'll let you in on something that's not really a secret, several of us have repeatedly examined this idea.
    Well, not just examined, really more like established contacts with company reps, obtained price quotess, did at least some preliminary design work.
    Andreas is more familiar with this than I am. I spent time on inquiries with I BM and Freescale and went so far as to start the design of an MPC8640 based system (with an ATI SB600 Southbridge).
    One of the few people I quizzed for feedback was Andreas (which is why I threw the question at him in this thread).
    Another MorphOS contributor (who can talk to you himself or Andreas can reference) still has regrets about not following through with an 8610 based design.
    I myself still think it might be a good idea (a new PPC motherboard) and I can see two possible sources for the processor (Freescale and Applied Micro), but there are some qualifiers.
    Price is the biggest one. I gave up my design when G4 Mac support was announced. An MPC8640 design would have some advantages, but the ultimate clock speed would be lower than the G4s. And how are you going to compete with the price of Macs that are practically being given away? Ultimately, once you crunch the numbers, you realize that the price of the X1000 and Acube's products aren't as overpriced as everyone complains.
    Low scale production of custom boards like this is expensive.
    The other qualifier (and I'm sure there are more) is performance. While a few PPC processor are now being introduced that again have started pushing performance up, its still hard to beat the performance of the G5 (and again these systems are dirt cheap).

    Think carefully about this,. It would be great to have a new system and the new options that would offer us (like PCI-e 2.0), but in practical terms- does it make good economic sense to invest a fairly large amount of money to produce something that will cost several times what an older platform (that would competently perform about as well) would? What is your market? Is it larger enough that you're not going to take a bath (financially)?

    Genesi and Acube have pursued other markets than just the MorphOS market when developing new hardware. Can you do that? Are there the resources and time necessary to pull this off?

    And its going to be a lot of work. Are you willing to commit that much of your life to this as it will obviously take?
    All thoughts that have gone through my mind and still I find the idea tempting.

    Anyone elses input on this would be gladly accepted. I don't know what the answer is. It would be nice, but how to do it, where to find the financial resources and how to organize it are all questions that still vex me.

    Anyone?

    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/30 15:28 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.12.10 - 15:21
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    does it make good economic sense to invest a fairly large amount of money to produce something that will cost several times what an older platform would?


    Of course not. I've taken out the rest of your valuable comments, because I've assimilated them easily. In fact, nothing of what you say is a surprise.

    In the end, when something doesn't get done, it has to be because of something.

    So sure, my comment about "making our own computer" can be reduced to an act of sarcasm.

    Final note: This is a cold, ungrateful world...

    Final note 2: The Team's idea to use Mac hardware might have been the best idea in amigaland in decades. ;-)
  • »30.12.10 - 16:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> I don't think jcmarcos referred to designing a new board

    > Oh yes I did!

    Then it seems I misread your response to my answer to your question if there's already a development board for Applied Micro's Mamba processor :-)

    > yet again, how the hell does LimePC do what they do?

    What do you mean specifically?

    >> we'd end up with something as expensive as the X1000

    > Nope, there's chips out there for something cheaper.

    This statement was made under the (improper) premise that you were referring to using existing eval boards :-)

    > freescale should be giving away eval boards for their products!

    At least they're giving the CPUs away for free for evaluation purposes ;-)

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7001&forum=3&post_id=74509#74509
  • »30.12.10 - 17:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Matt said he got his during the period they were 'discounted' to
    > the oh so affordable price of $2000

    I think it was $1500.

    http://www.newsletterarchive.org/2008/07/18/397039-Freescale
    http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/158082.shtml

    > Remember the last ARM evaluation board I mentioned to you? $200!

    It's $174 now:

    http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=UEVM4430F-01-00-00-ND
  • »30.12.10 - 17:27
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Matt said he got his during the period they were 'discounted' to
    > the oh so affordable price of $2000

    I think it was $1500.

    http://www.newsletterarchive.org/2008/07/18/397039-Freescale
    http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/158082.shtml

    > Remember the last ARM evaluation board I mentioned to you? $200!

    It's $174 now:

    http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=UEVM4430F-01-00-00-ND


    I'd call your last post a fine exaple of why you were one of the few people I ask advice from. Scary, now that you mention it, it probanly was $1500 (still about 33% higher than it ought to be, but I would have paid that).

    You see jcmarcos, here's is THE man on the post with total recall, who has done a lot of research on topics related to our market. And no, I don't think you were being sacastic. I feel that way every time I see a new promising introduction. Then all the economics courses I took in the past kick in, and I reach the same (somewhat depressing solution) - not practical. For now the MOS development has the right idea.

    BTW - Andreas, thanks for throwing the Digikey reference back at me, I may have to buy one of those just to play with it (if they're available).

    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/31 2:37 ]

    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/31 2:44 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.12.10 - 18:48
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > 800ghz coby kyros

    Had those specs been written by Max Seybold by chance? ;-)

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6726&forum=11&post_id=77311#77311
  • »31.12.10 - 02:35
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    xyphoid
    Posts: 870 from 2008/7/11
    From: Delaware, USA
    looks familiar though can't get over opensuite, which reads all my m$ stuff! c'mon mannn!
    with editing...been only b!tching for something similar on morph now for like ever!
  • »31.12.10 - 03:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The MPC 5125 eval board is 119 US$

    That development board by THTF/LimePC for the Freescale Tower System is not *the* MPC5125 eval board, which is rather the ADS5125 by STx (2000 USD). The same as with the MPC5121e: There's the ADS5121 ("Hellrosa") eval board by STx for 2000 USD (or 500 USD for an older revision) and there's the much cheaper MPC5121e development board by THTF/LimePC for the Freescale Tower System.

    > The 86xx ship unfortunately has more or less sailed

    Freescale at least say they'll ensure its availability until 2018 ;-)
  • »31.12.10 - 03:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > established contacts with company reps, obtained price quotess,
    > did at least some preliminary design work.
    > Andreas is more familiar with this than I am. I spent time on inquiries
    > with I BM and Freescale and went so far as to start the design of an
    > MPC8640 based system

    I don't quite understand. What is it that you think I'm more familiar with than you?

    > I can see two possible sources for the processor (Freescale and Applied Micro)

    I'd add LSI to that:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7001&forum=3&post_id=77307#77307

    > Acube have pursued other markets than just the MorphOS
    > market when developing new hardware.

    I'd even go as far as saying that the MorphOS market has never been in ACube's mind ;-)
  • »31.12.10 - 04:08
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    > yet again, how the hell does LimePC do what they do?

    What do you mean specifically?


    Mass manufacturing and selling (!) of lovely little PowerPC computers. They even make the best (read: non crazy expensive) evaluation boards for freescale! Funnily, that was the space I once though Genesi was in - perhaps that THTF betrayal went much further than I thought...
  • »31.12.10 - 09:18
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > established contacts with company reps, obtained price quotess,
    > did at least some preliminary design work.
    > Andreas is more familiar with this than I am. I spent time on inquiries
    > with I BM and Freescale and went so far as to start the design of an
    > MPC8640 based system

    I don't quite understand. What is it that you think I'm more familiar with than you?




    Sorry, haste fequently makes my posts unclear. Of course I only mentioned some of what I'd done. But you were familiar with both the proposed 8610 system and my work.

    Plus you're much better than me a remembering timelines and specific details (ie the price Matt paid for his evaluation board).
    So, what I meant was for a general overview of the period these ideas were still floating around/under consideration, you might be better at providind a holistically consise summary.

    What I have, is a less accurate memory, and a lot of technical print outs, notebooks filled with specific lists of pin functions, equivalents between Uli and ATI Southbridge components, and notes related to a huge variety of specific comsiderations (too long to summarize here).
    As well as the beginning entries/files for circuit layout.

    In essence, I feel comfotable with the technology, but feel you are a better speaker/writer (even if english is my first language and a secondary one for you) than I am. I value accurate, concise explanations.



    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/31 11:47 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »31.12.10 - 11:44
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    I'd add LSI to that:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7001&forum=3&post_id=77307#77307

    > Acube have pursued other markets than just the MorphOS
    > market when developing new hardware.

    I'd even go as far as saying that the MorphOS market has never been in ACube's mind ;-)


    LSI, maybe, depending on performance. And, yes, when I reread the paragraph mentioning Genesi and Acube I should have refered to not focusimg soley on "MorrphOS or AOS4" not just MorphOS.

    I thought about re-editting it for clarity, but I spend too much time making such correctiions already (I figured that eveyone would understand what I meant about not focusing on one market)..

    Thanks again for the input last night (which losely calculated would have beeen your morning). And, if I'm not mistaken you'll be receiving this fairly late on New Years Eve, so go have a beer (its traditional and its my birthday).
    Take care oh precise one.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »31.12.10 - 11:58
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> yet again, how the hell does LimePC do what they do?

    >> What do you mean specifically?

    > Mass manufacturing and selling (!) of lovely little PowerPC computers.

    Okay. Maybe the question shouldn't be "how" but rather "why"? ;-)
    Non-jokingly: The MPC512x is a very low-cost chip so I think whether to offer evaluation or development boards or systems based on this chip either for much or for little money is just a policy decision of the manufacturing company. THTF/LimePC obviously want to go for the cheap route and so they just do it. No magic involved. STx however seem to pursue quite another policy with their MPC512x based evaluation and reference boards and systems.

    > Funnily, that was the space I once though Genesi was in

    Yes, definitely:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6096&forum=11&post_id=60431#60431
  • »31.12.10 - 16:24
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > LSI, maybe, depending on performance.

    We may be in for a surprise:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7001&forum=3&post_id=79013#79013

    > I figured that eveyone would understand what I meant about
    > not focusing on one market

    I did, that's why it was meant to be a jesting comment :-)

    > if I'm not mistaken you'll be receiving this fairly late on New Years Eve

    Actually, it was about noon :-)

    > its my birthday

    Happy birthday, mate. Go have plenty of beers ;-)
  • »31.12.10 - 16:40
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> What is it that you think I'm more familiar with than you?

    > you were familiar with both the proposed 8610 system and my work. [...]
    > what I meant was for a general overview of the period these ideas were
    > still floatingaround/under consideration, you might be better at providind
    > a holistically consise summary.

    Ah, I see. Thanks for clarification.
  • »31.12.10 - 16:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > They still have 2.5 weeks left ;-)

    Unfortunately, no announcement of specific AltiVec enabled QorIQ chips in 2010 :-/
  • »01.01.11 - 23:28
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 366 from 2003/3/28
    Just discovered my posts about Titan were mentioned in this thread, and nobody knew what I was on about. I didn't give the whole story so I'll explain:

    I attended a talk by Intrinsity at work where they talked about their technology and their involvement in Titan.

    The idea behind Titan was to use the Intrinsity Fast14 technology on a cheap PPC. By using Fast14 they could make the chip fast and low power but they could also save money by using a 90nm process.

    But, Titan wasn't an existing core with Fast14 added to it. It was a completely new core designed by Intrinsity under contract from AMCC.

    When Apple bought Intrinsity I suspect Apple wanted the engineers to work on their projects and pretty much paid AMCC to drop Titan.

    However since AMCC owned the design they could still port it to a different process, presumably without the Fast14 tech.

    Titan was a specific implementation of the core, it got cancelled, and AMCC started work on a new implementation on IIRC 45nm.

    So that why Titan was the core that was cancelled, but wasn't.

    --

    BTW The Fast14 tech is very impressive, it can pretty much double performance without increasing power consumption. Before they were bought, there were rumours of Intrinsity working on a 2Ghz Cortex-A9.

    I suspect the iPad 2 might be rather more potent than anyone suspects :-)
  • »19.01.11 - 22:31
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    It's a pity Apple scarfed up the technology.
    I had some suspicion that Apple's purchase of Intrinsity was behind the shift away from Titan.

    Have you got any idea how close the new 45nm processor is to the Titan design?

    [ Edited by Jim on 2011/1/19 22:44 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.01.11 - 22:38
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