> from the _very_ few docs out there that I could find, it looks like a mix of Cell SPU
> and AltiVec. Some instructions are the same, others -esp the double fp or the decimal
> fp support- have no Altivec equivalents.

Thanks for information. My main question would be if VSX is backwards compatible to VMX/AltiVec by itself or if POWER7 supports both by having both implemented separately. Or similarily put: Does a CPU implementing VSX automatically support VMX/AltiVec, i.e. is VSX a strict superset?

I think it would be pointless for AMD and Intel to "do" anything other than what they're doing right now.
Currently, they're providing virtually all processors used in personal computers (unless you want to include iPad and other compact devices in with PCs).
While some of use seem to be worried about ARM, X86 is the real competitor. Upgraded constantly, originating with a small company building calculator processors, and very luckily picked for IBM first off the shelf consumer oriented computer.
This unlikely architecture has matured to dominate the market.
Would that it weren't true, but AMD and Intel have no reason to "do" anything else.

> I think I could get used to a netbook, even with a small display and keyboard, if the
> screen resolution was better (say 1024X768 or at least 800X600)

7" netbooks easily have been doing at least 1024x600 for years, even PPC based ones:

http://www.limepc.com/book_specs.shtml

> don't worry about Andreas' comment, he knows perfectly well that none
> of the three companies I mentioned produce PPCs.

I guess you just got confused by KimmoK answering to an April comment of mine ;-)

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Yes, that's true (and I probably should have left out the 800x600 spec), but 1024x600 requires more vertical scrolling than I want to do.

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Sure? When do you think that the market split between Intel 32 and 64 bit CPUs will turn around? I mean, every computer I see over here is 32 bit, perhaps there's a couple 64 bit, running boring 32 bit software. Is that a "norm"?

Computers grew to double bitness, and yet the world is exactly the same...

All this talk about new PowerPC processots... Has anyone a rough idea about how much building a new PowerPC based computer would cost? It seems everyone and his dog are cooking ARM based 'puters nowadays, why the hell does it have to be so hard with our favourite CPU? Why doesn't freescale play the Beagleboard game? No Andreas, I don't think those "tower" development boards are the same.

Where's bPlan, by the way? Gerald and Thomas got boring jobs? Or became millionaires and live in Bahamas, drinking caipirinhas? Pun intended, for those long time amigans.

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That's a sweeeeet PowerPC CPU! I was told that, in order to have terrific graphics output, it has the GPU "wired backwards", giving it priority over other general I/O lines. A quick jump to wikipedia would make me learn a lot, but I feel too amigan today.

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Andreas asking questions? Now the world has turned over Perhaps I should start believing about 64 bit processors being everywhere...

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You are very right. That also explains how boring this little world of computers became amny years ago. Have you being doing something positively different in your computers for the last ten years?

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I don't know, perhaps it depends on the environment, for me here, the norm is 64-bit, as I don't really know anyone with a 32-bit PC anymore, unless it is an old laptop, but then again most of my friends are geeks :)

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It's not easy, The beagleboard was a terrific idea, and this is what I attempted to do with the 8610 board -which is not dead yet, there are some ideas to revive it- and which would be a good ppc alternative, even if the X1000 is released and even if the 8610 is EOL'd.

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Busy with the EfikaMX :)

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To me (without bothering to read down into details) it seems that xbox 360 has similar architecture as the xbox1, where the GPU does the memory controlling and CPU get's only what is left over from the GPU.
Like classic Amigas with only Chip RAM.

PPC SOC designs (440ep, 460ex, PA6T) have own memory controllers and they therefore should perform slightly better than chips with external controllers.

I forgot to answer that yesterday:

> AMD and Intel may actually be the first to introduce processors with
> decent on die GPUs (but it hasn't happened yet, all current processors
> offering this feature have horrible GPU performance).

jcmarcos wrote something interesting regarding Xenon 1.5 weeks ago:

"The new version, jsut on sale now, has a new chip with the CPU, the GPU (!) and the RAM (!!!) all stacked in the same component!"
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7186&forum=11&start=18

Wikipedia:

"Introduced in the Xbox 360 S was the XCGPU where Microsoft have integrated the Xenon CPU, the Xenos GPU and eDRAM in the same package."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon_(processor)#XCGPU

"...the XCGPU, an integrated CPU/GPU/eDRAM chip using a 45 nm fabrication process."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360#Xbox_360_S

Unfortunately, that chip is only available for Microsoft.

>> Where's bPlan, by the way? Gerald and Thomas got boring jobs? Or became
>> millionaires and live in Bahamas, drinking caipirinhas? Pun intended, for those
>> long time amigans.

> Busy with the EfikaMX :)

What part of it? Hardware development? Firmware development? Hardware production?

> Where's bPlan, by the way? Gerald and Thomas got boring jobs? Or became
> millionaires and live in Bahamas, drinking caipirinhas?

I don't think so (regarding the 'millionaires' part):

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39467
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2009/04/cloudcityme.html

> Andreas asking questions?

I consider feanor to be an authority when it comes to SIMD computing. So it's quite naturally for me to ask him on that.

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Whoops! The first URL leads to something (back in 2008) that looks like bankrupcy filling. The second, about being in the clouds, I don't get it. What's the relation with bPlan?

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But I almos never see you asking questions, while it's very common seeing you giving answers. Oh, I've just seen your question below...

> The first URL leads to something (back in 2008) that looks like bankrupcy filling.

Carda's personal insolvency filing in October 2008, yes.

> The second, about being in the clouds, I don't get it. What's the relation with bPlan?

Read further down. It mentions Carda as well. Kind of side job maybe? ;-)

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Thanks Andreas, though I am hardly an authority on the subject, I just like the stuff, and I enjoy SIMD algorithm optimizations immensely. Not to mention, that no matter how much I read, I always end up thinking that I know nothing and have to read more. If I was an authority, I could perhaps influence Freescale to revive AltiVec and or enhance it -I did sent some email To Freescale with suggestions on AltiVec 2, a few years ago, didn't really get anything more than "thanks we'll look into it". :)

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Aha, thanks. I agree with you. So here is where Gerald was last seen in the wild:

[img]http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20090331&t=2&i=9520862&w=460&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=2009-03-31T231705Z_01_BTRE52U1SOQ00_RTROPTP_0_GERMANY[/img]

(Will inline images ever be back on MorphZone? Andre, why not?)

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Hardware development is mostly done by Pegatron -with the cooperation of bPlan-, and production is done solely by Pegatron but bPlan are very close to finishing Aura development on the EfikaMX, thus providing an high level abstraction to the devices/drivers of the device in an OS-agnostic way. Of course, an appropriate Linux kernel is also developed at the same time.

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Are you sure of any of this information, Andreas? At 65nm we were dealing with separate components. I haven't seen a tear-down of the newest XBOX360, but one chip would combine three different components.
Since the system has to operate the same as older XBOX360s this can't offer any architectural advantages, only lower cost of production.

That doesn't really strike me as an advantage to the user (unless Microsoft wants to pass on some of the savings). Its a little like Intel giving the latest Atoms an on die memory controller, but not changing the design to take advantage of it being on-die. There's no performance increase.

In a situation like that, I'd rather have separate components so I don't complicate or limit upgrade ability.

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Thanks for the clarification Konstantinos. So, what Genesi/bPlan/Pegatron are doing is making a new computer and custom operating system. Well, almost... But in many regards, it is. Once done, it's all a matter of convincing the world to write kernels for Aura.

The product is almost ready. Hey, I swear I red the word "August" there a moment ago...

>> I consider feanor to be an authority when it comes to SIMD computing.
>> So it's quite naturally for me to ask him on that.

> I am hardly an authority on the subject, I just like the stuff, and I enjoy SIMD algorithm
> optimizations immensely. Not to mention, that no matter how much I read, I always
> end up thinking that I know nothing and have to read more.

Alright, make that "an authority compared to most other MorphZone members including me" then ;-) Could you please have a look at my question over there?

> So here is where Gerald was last seen in the wild:
> http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20090331&t=2&i=9520862&w=460&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=2009-03-31T231705Z_01_BTRE52U1SOQ00_RTROPTP_0_GERMANY

Yes, AFAIK. Bigger version:

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?d=20090331&t=2&i=9520862&w=1024

> Hardware development is mostly done by Pegatron

That's what I had thought.

> with the cooperation of bPlan

Interesting, that's news to me.

> production is done solely by Pegatron but bPlan are very close to finishing
> Aura development on the EfikaMX

Again what I had thought.

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AFAIK, yes. Power7 -which is the only cpu currently supporting VSX- supports VMX as well. VSX is like an extention, or a superset as you put it. I don't know if that's guaranteed to be so according to the Power ISA, but at least on Power7 they implemented both. Though, I doubt that they would implement one without the other, to be honest.

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Let's just say that bPlan has lots of experience which proved valuable many times :)

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This sounds interesting. I still think there could be some potential.

> Are you sure of any of this information, Andreas?

I just quoted some things from the interwebs. How can one be really sure of anything written there? ;-)

> I haven't seen a tear-down of the newest XBOX360, but one chip would
> combine three different components.

Yes, that's how I read it too.

> Since the system has to operate the same as older XBOX360s this can't
> offer any architectural advantages, only lower cost of production.

Yes, no implications to the opposite. I was just referring to you stating that "all current processors offering this feature have horrible GPU performance". So I think this new Xenon version (or 'XCGPU' how it's called) seems to be a processor offering this feature while *not* having horrible GPU performance. But as I said, unfortunately not available outside Microsoft.

> In a situation like that, I'd rather have separate components so I don't
> complicate or limit upgrade ability.

I don't know if today there really would be a need to upgrade from an R500/R600 hybrid like the Xenos GPU yet.