New SAM460EX
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Thanks for the clarifications on your part, Andreas (as I said, I would never presume to speak for you). And you had a clearer picture of the PA6T and about Varisys' owner than I ever did. After contacting Varisys, I found your input on these points to be very informative (and in the long run dead on).
    I just got my first response back from Freescale. They want me to dig up the name of the contact I made when I first received my NDA.
    I've looked for it in my e-mail, but when I found it the e-mail server crashed. So, now I'll have to wait till that's back up.
    But then, if the P5010 isn't due to be released till Q4, I've got some time to make sure my NDA is up to date.

    BTW - Thanks for bringing up this processor. The last of the e600 cored SoCs were becoming a bit dated and their development had stopped. I can't remember where I saw the 3.0 Ghz quote, I've been all over (the internet) since you first brought this up. But you're correct first 2.0 and 2.2 Ghz, then 2.5 Ghz. Twice the speed of the MPC8641! This looks very promising.

    Once I have the basic specifications on the P5010 and can get an idea of how complicated a basic design utilizing this processor would be, I can reconnect with the manufacturer I have a relationship with in PA and see if its worth pursuing.

    The 5500 cored processors certainly look more hopeful than the MPC86XX or the low end AM processors that Acube uses.

    Thanks again for being such a well informed member of the community.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.07.10 - 17:43
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I can't remember where I saw the 3.0 Ghz quote

    It was e700 that was said to go up "to 3 GHz and beyond" when announced in 2004. Maybe you got confused by all these numbers? ;-)

    > then 2.5 Ghz. Twice the speed of the MPC8641!

    2.5 GHz is twice the clock of the MPC8640. Twice the clock of the MPC8641 would be 3.0 GHz :-)
  • »02.07.10 - 18:41
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Right on both points. And 2.0 and 2.2 Ghz are only .5 and .7 Ghz above the top MPC8641 respectively.

    Still, if the DMIPS/MHz per core figures you've listed are even close to correct this sounds like a very powerful series of processors.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.07.10 - 20:10
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > if the DMIPS/MHz per core figures you've listed are even close to correct

    I hope they (all) are. I didn't run the Dhrystone benchmark on any of these myself but found the (sometimes contradictory, like with PPC470) figures on product websites, fact sheets, product briefs, presentation PDF files and such. Still, the PA6T vs. PPC970 issue is puzzling me.
  • »02.07.10 - 20:39
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Yes, it would imply that MorphOS developers would be much better off porting to a well tested system like a G5 Mac and not to the X1000.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.07.10 - 21:03
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 25.04.2011 - 07:09 ]
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  • »03.07.10 - 11:18
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:59 ]
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  • »03.07.10 - 11:21
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    Quote:


    Velcro_SP wrote:
    You mean you don't understand, feanor, and that's okay.



    I still don't, whatever...
  • »03.07.10 - 11:58
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:54 ]
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  • »03.07.10 - 15:45
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    There's no point in being obsessively argumentative here.

    And I'm not impressed with the performance of the 5121e (and PowerVR is ancient).

    As to PowerQUICC II Pro based processors, since they use the e300 core (based on the PowerPC 603e that runs in some Amiga accelerators) these processors are not limited to the applications you've mentioned (they could easily run MorphOS).

    Further, PowerQUICC is being supplanted by the software-compatible QorIQ platform on e500 cores. As we were discussing the latest development to the e500 core (the e5500) and the P50xx processors based on that core use less than 30 watts, that seems like reasonably low wattage. And there are lower wattage PPC processors available that don't give up as much performance as the 5121e.

    I don't understand why are so many posters fascinated by low cost, low performance systems built for third world markets. Do you really want to put an OS on a PC that costs more than the computer?

    Recently when I discussed PPC based systems with the owner of Varisys (the designers of the X1000 motherboard) I got this response:

    "In terms of PPC we are thinking QorIQ here for higher end designs."

    We can continue to discussing relatively dead end processors like the 5121e and the PA6T, or resume discussing processors that seem to have a future.


    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/3 18:40 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »03.07.10 - 16:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Even there, you can't resist removing the paragraph break. That didn't happen with the
    > copy and paste. You went in and removed a blank line. Am I wrong? Yes or no?

    No, you are right. I like to have things condensed. And I don't think that removing the blank line changed anything in meaning. After all, there's still the paragraph break, isn't it?

    > At least you included the Theora part. You didn't include that in your first quote
    > of this text, or in your second expanded one.

    Yes, as I prefer to not quote things I'm *not* referring to. Wouldn't make any sense. I didn't refer to "more RAM" but to "dedicated graphics chip". And in that I didn't refer to "Theora decoder" but to "PowerVR". That's why I omitted "more RAM" as well as "Theora decoder". I can't see anything dishonest in that.

    > You're mashing the paragraphs together

    I removed a *blank* line. The paragraph break ist still there.

    > they still don't say to add a second PowerVR to a 5121e computer.
    > [...]
    > None of that refers to adding a second PowerVR to a 5121e system.

    Let's see. There are 4 paragraphs. In the 2nd one you talk about Linkbook, LimePC and your Cherrypal C114, i.e. MPC5121e based computers only. In the 4th paragraph you explain that the other "low-wattage" processors than MPC5121e are not established enough for your liking. And now you say that inbetween, i.e. in the 3rd paragraph, you didn't mean to include the MPC5121e when mentioning "slow, low-wattage processor"? Yes or no?

    > I was not thinking of PowerQiCC.

    Thanks for eventually answering that question. So it seems you don't necessarily think the MPC5121e to be much more established than the PowerQUICC II Pro. Good to have that clarified.

    > I don't think I've ever discussed network or routers or automotive or
    > point-of-sale etc. computers here.

    Huh? PowerQUICC is not a whole system but a *processor* family. You referred to "other things being talked about" and "this other low-wattage, small stuff". And PowerQUICC II Pro actually *had been* talked about right before here in this thread and *is* low-wattage, small stuff. So there's no ill will involved in assuming you may have included PowerQUICC II Pro when mentioning "other things being talked about" and "this other low-wattage, small stuff".
  • »03.07.10 - 17:43
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    boot_wb
    Posts: 874 from 2007/4/9
    From: Kingston upon ...
    Quote:


    Jim wrote:
    There's no point in being obsessively argumentative here.


    Hey, they're Amiga people- what do you expect? ;-)

    Quote:

    I don't understand why are so many posters fascinated by low cost, low performance systems built for third world markets. Do you really want to put an OS on a PC that costs more than the computer?

    This could be a great way to go for penetration of developing market though: with MorphOS available to OEMs at a low-cost (or charitable donation) OEM price, if proven to perform well on eg the "$100 noteboook" compared to eg Linux, we could have a realistic way to increase the userbase by an order (or several) of magnitude. Not to mention people's brand loyalty to the first OS with which they learned to use a computer.

    Dreaming perhaps, but an example of how the low-cost low-performance systems could be very interesting for MorphOS.
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  • »03.07.10 - 17:57
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > PowerVR is ancient

    The MBX Lite that is incorporated into the MPC5121e, yes. But there're newer and better PowerVR GPUs available than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#Series5_.28SGX.29
  • »03.07.10 - 18:20
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Hard to believe they're still developing PowerVR, Andreas, but they seems to have re-targeted their products so they don't have to compete with ATI and Nvidia.

    I still don't see the point in focusing on the MPC5121e, its aging fast.

    And there are a lot of other low wattage PPC processors.

    Sorry, boot_wb, sometimes I forget that at times we all take things too seriously.

    A cheap netbook would be nice, but right now I can buy a G4 Powerbook cheap so I hope we see that port soon. That would blank any 5121e based device.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »03.07.10 - 20:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Hard to believe they're still developing PowerVR

    They're quite successful with it, with Apple being one of their most famous customers (iPad, iPhone, iPod Touch).

    > they seems to have re-targeted their products so they don't have to compete
    > with ATI and Nvidia.

    Yes, when Kyro III was ready for release in 2002 their partner STMicro pulled back, leaving them no other option than to enter portable graphics market and optimize Kyro III for that, resulting in the PowerVR MBX in the same year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#MBX

    > I still don't see the point in focusing on the MPC5121e

    Me neither. I'm a desktop user, and I consider a 400 MHz e300 too weak even for a netbook that could be of use to me.

    > there are a lot of other low wattage PPC processors.

    Exactly. That's why when talk was about the e300 in this thread I said that my vote would be on PowerQUICC II Pro (800 MHz MPC8377E), if it must be e300 by all means that is.
  • »03.07.10 - 22:25
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    SO Velcro_SP was offended because you suggested a more powerful processor and somehow came to think that said processor was only suited to "network or routers or automotive or point-of-sale etc. computers".

    Since I've been part of a company that marketed Point of Sale computers I'm vaguely offended. Unless you're talking about relatively dumb terminals, the computers behind a POS systems need to be fairly robust (you can't do business if your systems down).

    And why can't we leave the low performing PPCs to the AmigaOS crowd?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »03.07.10 - 23:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > why can't we leave the low performing PPCs to the AmigaOS crowd?

    Mind you, they're going to have the PA6T. There's currently no better performing CPU a PPC based AmigaOS like OS can run on ;-)
  • »04.07.10 - 00:36
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Mind you, they're going to have the PA6T. There's currently no better performing CPU a PPC based AmigaOS like OS can run on ;-)


    From the DMIPS/MHz per core figures you've list earlier, the e500, e600, G5, and e5500 if run at similar speeds would all outperform the PA6T.

    Of course, not all those cores clock to 1.8 Ghz (or above), but several do. And since the continued availability of PA6Ts is questionable I hope something else comes along.

    And, of course, if you can't afford a X1000, the you better hope you can find a good used Pegasos, because otherwise you're stuck running on one of Acube's anemic boards.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »04.07.10 - 01:22
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > From the DMIPS/MHz per core figures you've list earlier

    Dhrystone is a very artificial benchmark.

    > the e500, e600, G5, and e5500 if run at similar speeds would all outperform the PA6T.
    > Of course, not all those cores clock to 1.8 Ghz (or above), but several do.

    From my list only e5500, PPC970 and PPC470 would be able to beat the 1.8 GHz PA6T in DMIPS figures at their respective maximum clock rates.

    > you better hope you can find a good used Pegasos, because otherwise
    > you're stuck running on one of Acube's anemic boards.

    I'm eager to know how the PPC460EX performs in real life compared to the equally clocked MPC7447 in the Pegasos II G4. I expect the G4 to perform somewhat better though, even without AltiVec.
  • »04.07.10 - 03:05
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    I'd expect the 7447 to outperform a similarly clocked PPC460EX as well, and the dhrystone measurement you gave for the Titan don't look too promising either.

    A 7448 would outperform a 7447, and apparently the three processors you've mentioned would outperform that (of course, all based on - as you pointed out - a very artificial test).

    And Acube's pricing, based on performance, is worse than A-eon's.

    Now, as to the max speeds of the processors you've mentioned, they appear to be higher than the PA6T (unless that runs at 2.0 and so far its only been seen running at 1.8).

    Wouldn't we still be better off with G5 Powermacs. I can get a fairly well equipped high speed G5 for hundreds less than an Acube based system.

    And, when (if), we get Powermac support there are the 7447 and 7448 upgrades. A 1.8Ghz might or might not outperform an X1000, but its going to walk all over anything from Acube.

    As HD video decoding with current MorphOS supported hardware can be problematic at really high res, why worry about even slower hardware than the Pegasos?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »04.07.10 - 03:56
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > apparently the three processors you've mentioned would outperform that
    > (of course, all based on - as you pointed out - a very artificial test).

    Based on that benchmark, a 1.8 GHz PA6T core would marginally (by 1.3%) outperform a 1.7 GHz 7448 (that's the maximum stock clock rate according to Freescale) as well.

    > Acube's pricing, based on performance, is worse than A-eon's.

    Taking only one core of the PA6T into account, Dhrystone performance of the 1.8 GHz PA6T is twice that of the 1.0 GHz PPC460EX. I expect a full Sam460ex system to be priced somewhat less than half of the X1000. On the other hand I expect real life performance of one 1.8 GHz PA6T core to be much better than only twice that of the 1.0 GHz PPC460EX, add to that AltiVec capability, faster bus, larger caches and the option to use the 2nd core whenever OS4 will support that. So yes, you may be right in your estimation.

    > as to the max speeds of the processors you've mentioned, they appear to be higher
    > than the PA6T (unless that runs at 2.0 and so far its only been seen running at 1.8).

    Not quite. The PPC470 is clocked at up to 1.8 GHz as well (in the LSI Axxia, while being specified at only 1.6 GHz max by IBM btw).

    > Wouldn't we still be better off with G5 Powermacs.

    Performance wise, probably yes. But not everyone would be happy with the high wattage of the PPC970 I guess. That's where the PA6T shines in comparison. In real life performance (i.e. not Dhrystone) I expect the PA6T to have significant higher performance/wattage figure than the PPC970 by providing only slightly less performance/clock.

    > there are the 7447 and 7448 upgrades. A 1.8Ghz might or might not
    > outperform an X1000

    In terms of Dhrystone an e600 core above 1.72 GHz would outperform a 1.8 GHz PA6T core. So the overclocked 1.8+ GHz G4 upgrades deliver more DMIPS than a 1.8 GHz PA6T core. In real life performance though I think a 1.8 GHz PA6T core would outperform an equally clocked 7448.

    > but its going to walk all over anything from Acube.

    Yes, that's for sure.

    > As HD video decoding with current MorphOS supported hardware can be problematic
    > at really high res, why worry about even slower hardware than the Pegasos?

    I'm just curious to the whole thing. Be assured that I definitely won't downgrade from my 1.5 GHz G4 ever :-)
  • »04.07.10 - 10:53
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:02 ]
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  • »04.07.10 - 10:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12010 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I spoke to the general idea of making use of (note: not necessarily "adding," esp.
    > where already present) dedicated video hardware and more RAM to a system with
    > slow processor to improve performance.

    You wrote "dedicated graphics chip", not "dedicated video hardware" (which can be a dedicated chip, a dedicated core inside a SoC or whatever). I advice you to eventually look up what a chip in terms of electronics actually is. So regarding the MPC5121e the usage of a "dedicated graphics chip" (which you subsequently try to turn into the wider concept of "dedicated video hardware") would be equal to adding a second graphics core to the system (one graphics core in the MPC5121e SoC plus one graphics core in the "dedicated graphics chip" makes two graphics cores in the system).
    Again it boils down to the question I've already asked you: And now you say that inbetween, i.e. in the 3rd paragraph, you didn't mean to include the MPC5121e when mentioning "slow, low-wattage processor"? Yes or no?

    > PowerQuicc is said by Wikipedia to be used in automotive and routers.

    We were talking specifically about PowerQUICC II Pro because it's e300 based like the MPC5121e. Automotive is no target application of any PowerQUICC processor (and I doubt it is used in that space either, so I consider Wikipedia wrong in that *) because QUICC is a communications engine:

    http://www.freescale.com/quiccengine
    http://www.freescale.com/files/graphic/other/NCSG_QUICCENG_VID.wmv
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QUICC (not quite encyclopaedic in its wording)

    The MPC8377E I was specifically aiming at has the following target applications according to Freescale: multifunctional printer, small/medium business gateway, IP-PBX systems, network attached storage (NAS), digital media server (DMS).
    Admittedly, that may sound like it's hard to build something like a nettop or netbook with it. But technically it has everything you would want for such system, except for (as outlined before) a GPU and AC'97. For these both a dedicated graphics chip (there you go) and a dedicated sound chip connected to the SoC's PCI(e) bus would be needed, or alternatively a combined graphics and sound chip (for instance like the Sam460ex has on-board).

    > It's fine with me if someone puts a PowerQuicc processor in a netbook or
    > desktop or nettop or smartphone, but I'm not aware that's been done.

    Me neither. But that's been the whole point of that part of the discussion: to outline which Power Architecture based processors that are faster than a 400 MHz e300 *could* be used to develop and build such systems.

    *) the Wikipedia claim that "Freescale are using PowerQUICC processors as a part of their mobileGT platform" is also false. PowerQUICC and mobileGT (MPC51xx/52xx) do not overlap.
  • »04.07.10 - 12:30
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Thanks for making all the careful calculations for speculations I made out of opinion, Andreas.
    I actually feel much better about MorphOS' current and proposed future supported hardware.

    I didn't downgrade, but my most recent purchase of an Emac doesn't quite have to power of your Mac Mini.

    Nice to know that when Powermac support is introduced, I can spend a few hundred bucks and upgrade my Powermac's processor to match the X1000's horsepower.

    Blame AIM for the G5's power usage. Since development stagnated and die size is too large (is there anything smaller the 90nm?).

    Why are we still discussing the e300? I know you love banter/speculation with a focus on correct information, but this isn't far enough away from the PowerPC 603e for my tastes. Better processors than these have already reached EOL.

    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/4 16:46 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »04.07.10 - 14:42
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