New SAM460EX
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2018 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    HammerD wrote:
    The Efika didn't exactly fly off the shelves. Cheap price, but also low performance and limited ram, slow IDE interface.

    People want good pricing but they also want good performance.

    SAM460 is good, if they can keep the cost reasonable without sacrificing performance.

    Would be a nice replacement for aging PEG-2 machines, though.


    The Sam 460 offers less than a Peg2 (no Altivec, less expandibility) and is on release in autumn more expensive than a Peg2 was many years ago. To me that doesn't fit into that category "good replacement".
    A good replacement would be a 86x0 based ?ATX board. But unfortunately that isn't going to happen.

    The Efika 5200B had a few weak points.
    - too little RAM
    - too slow ide (with flash storage this isn't too dramatic anymore for normal usage)
    - not standrad form factor compatible
    - need of an ATX PSU (an onboard 12V DC plug would have been much easier)
    - no high speed usb

    But direction of the Efika was good. The Efika2 would have made a nice device - if only the cache coherence wouldn't have been a show stopper for Linux. Today I think an e300/400MHZ core isn't enough, not even for low end. The Efika 5200B is just able to decode a TV stream - but only with a low bitrate. A bit more juice is required for a low end solution okay today.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »22.06.10 - 22:24
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > if only the cache coherence wouldn't have been a show stopper for Linux.

    Actually, it was cache *non*-coherency ;-)

    > Today I think an e300/400MHZ core isn't enough, not even for low end. The
    > Efika 5200B is just able to decode a TV stream - but only with a low bitrate.

    The MPC5121e that was supposed to go into the "Efika 2" includes the Auxiliary eXecution Engine (AXE), which was "designed for efficient implementation of audio and other algorithms key to multimedia and telematics systems" (Freescale quote). But I don't know how much that unit could be of real help with A/V stream decoding. Moreover, I don't even know if that unit was ever put to any real use by anybody outside Freescale.
  • »22.06.10 - 23:27
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:32 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »23.06.10 - 00:07
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2018 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    Velcro_SP wrote:


    Quote:

    The Efika 5200B had a few weak points.


    I really never was happy with my Efika, for the reasons you name and more. As someone who has both an Efika and a Cherrypa1/LimePC X-1, the latter is IMO superior by far. It was the great missed opportunity of 2006 or whenever that was that Genesi didn't close the deal on a 5121e-based self-contained unit. It was a real tragedy. MorphOS would have been and would be still great on it and the annoying low-mem issues with OWB etc. could all have been avoided. Really sad.


    Yes, a few years back the 5121 would have been nice, but today it is too little. does your cherry pal replay DVD quality video? I think that would be minimum today. And a bit too much for teh e300/400. *If* freescale came out with asome 512x sporting an e300/600 that could be something interesting still. But i don't know of any plans like that.
    Quote:



    As for the idea, Zylesea, that software cache coherence is a showstopper for Linux... Linux runs on 5121e-based computers. In fact as far as I know it's the only OS that runs on 5121e-based computers. It doesn't seem like the Linux show was stopped. Maybe it presented some challenges to the actors, but I don't think it stopped the show.


    Well it was a show stopper since it added much, much additional work on the software side - consuming time and introducing more delays. All in al it just took too long. And cherrypal/lime may have a working product now (for a while), but obviously it isn't selling like hot cakes today. It took too long. It pops up here and then from time to time (last time as the Vodafone Sout Africa offer), but yet I don't have heard from a real success story. Unfortunately, I must add.
    Quote:



    I do hope Genesi strikes gold with their ARM systems though. I guess there is some excitement there.

    Yeah, I wish them all the best luck, too. Not only because I think they deserved it (i think they did good work), but also because they never said they left ppc world totally and forever. Having earned some money and additional reputation, maybe a new ppc project may be a good addition to the portfolio. But the current priority is of course to get the EfikaMX successfully to the market. But who knows what the futre may bring...

    [ Edited by Zylesea on 2010/6/23 3:36 ]
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »23.06.10 - 00:35
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > 2006 or whenever that was that Genesi didn't close the deal
    > on a 5121e-based self-contained unit.

    Not before 2007.

    http://media.freescale.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=196520&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1004385

    > as far as I know it's the only OS that runs on 5121e-based computers.

    "This includes support for popular real-time operating systems from Green Hills, QNX and Wind River, as well as open-source Linux solutions."
    http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC5121e
  • »23.06.10 - 00:38
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > a few years back the 5121 would have been nice, but today it is too little. does
    > your cherry pal replay DVD quality video? I think that would be minimum today.

    I think that need for DVD quality video replay capability is not something that came up only during the last 3 years ;-)

    > And a bit too much for teh e300/400.

    Does anybody know if the AXE unit is actually used on the MPC5121e based devices from THTF/MTC/LimePC/Cherrypal running Linux?

    > *If* freescale came out with asome 512x sporting an e300/600 that could be
    > something interesting still.

    It's not that there're no 600+ MHz e300 core based processors:

    http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8347E
    http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8349E
    http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8360E
    http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8377E
    http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8378E
    http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8379E

    Why not take PowerQUICC II Pro (starting at 39.12 USD for 667 MHz MPC8377E, 46.16 USD for 800 MHz) instead of MobileGT (starting at 22.08 USD for 400 MHz MPC5121e) if it must be e300?

    The cheapest one is also the most desktop suited one. MPC8377E has DDR2 RAM controller, one PCI, two PCIe x1 (or one PCIe x2), two SATA2, two GbE, USB 2.0. Anything important missing with that chip? Ah yes, a GPU and AC'97. These are the only real disadvantages I can spot over the MPC5121e. For that, a single chip like the SM502 (which is on the Sam460EX) combining 2D GPU and AC'97 (and more) might be sufficient.

    Discussions of the MPC8377E:
    http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1502
    http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1478&start=75 (I see that you took part in that one)
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6096&forum=11&start=40#60451

    > they never said they left ppc world totally and forever.

    You don't have to say you leave something totally and forever to leave it totally and forever ;-)
  • »23.06.10 - 01:25
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    I don't even know if that AXE unit was ever put to any real use by anybody outside Freescale.


    And that was the easy one, at least a driver for AXE did exist. The biggest feature of the MPC5121e was its PowerVR Lite 3D core, for which there's never been a public driver...

    I fear even the CherryPal/LimePC, being consumer products, are still severely crippled by unefficient software. Which, in turn, can only be because of inefficient management. And I'm not talking power management, those techniques to save battery life...
  • »23.06.10 - 07:17
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > its PowerVR Lite 3D core, for which there's never been a public driver...

    Really? Not even in Linux binary form? I've been under the impression that the driver just wasn't open sourced. (A MorphOS driver would have to be developed from docs either way.)

    > I fear even the CherryPal/LimePC, being consumer products, are still
    > severely crippled by unefficient software.

    It would be interesting to see if the pre-installed Linux OS on the LimeBook/Linkbook or the C114/C120/LimeBox/X1 supports the 3D core of the MPC5121e. A real shame if it doesn't.
  • »23.06.10 - 09:13
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:24 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »23.06.10 - 09:27
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Velcro_SP wrote:

    the built-in multimedia co-processors are not supported.


    Sadly true. And, in the manufacturer's view, if the product is "fine" for its current market (not to mention lifespan)... then don't waste a dime on making it obviously better.

    Shamefully, those PowerVR and AXE cores you've paid for stay idle. There's public information and driver for the AXE, but I bet Imagination Technologies would request you a lot of money for the PowerVR documentation.

    Sometimes I think technology is actually going backwads instead of forward. With sittuations like this, it's easy to believe that the anti-amigan "use the CPU for all" idea is best.
  • »23.06.10 - 11:08
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4956 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    jcmarcos wrote:
    Sometimes I think technology is actually going backwads instead of forward. With sittuations like this, it's easy to believe that the anti-amigan "use the CPU for all" idea is best.


    Nope, its just stagnating. If technology was going backward we might see the Amiga become a popular, well supported system again.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.06.10 - 11:42
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I bet Imagination Technologies would request you a lot of money
    > for the PowerVR documentation.

    Concluding from past postings on powerdeveloper.org, THTF/Cherrypal or whoever could even obtain driver source from Imagination Technologies and distribute a binary if they wanted:

    http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9045#9045
    http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9534#9534
    http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=10238#10238

    I don't know the costs of such license though.
  • »23.06.10 - 12:01
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4956 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    That just seems so counter productive. Try to sell a product. Demand additional payment for documentation and licensing.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.06.10 - 12:42
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    Concluding from past postings on powerdeveloper.org, THTF/Cherrypal or whoever could even obtain driver source from Imagination Technologies and distribute a binary if they wanted:

    http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9045#9045


    Very, very revealing. Well, actually not revealing at all, because that's something I had actually red, so it was already revealed... Three years ago!
  • »23.06.10 - 14:55
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2018 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    Velcro_SP wrote:
    Quote:

    Yes, a few years back the 5121 would have been nice, but today it is too little. does your cherry pal replay DVD quality video?


    DVD video is normally 720 pixels wide and 480 or 576 pixels high. No, but you must keep in mind that the built-in multimedia co-processors are not supported. Maybe in the current software for LimePC X-1 they are. I do not know what the result would be were the co-processors supported.


    Look, that is the prob with the 5121. It is on the market now for quite a while and *still* it isn't supported well. But time is a limited resource?and hardware progesses in the mean time, too. Nobody is interesed in a 400 MHz e300 for general computing any more. Yes, it does some job (I like my Efika), but the more the merrier. Instead of wasting resources to finally get support better stop it when you see it is too much work and decide for another product. In ppc-land that probably means for very low cost to better use some PowerQICC (Andreas mentioned it again) or maybe chose a chip from Applied Micro (no e300s though). The 5121 sounded nice back then, but it didn't kept promises and time has moved on. The idea of a 5121 and general computing better gets buried, RIP.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »24.06.10 - 07:29
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > there is something like the e5500 a 64 bit core derived from e500 for QorIQ in
    > the pipeline, but no e700 (which would AFAIK a 64 bit derivate from the e600) .

    Seems some Wikipedia editor's opinion differs from yours:

    "Freescale have used the e700 and NG-64 monikers to refer to this core since 2004. [...] PowerPC e700 - The former codename for what probably was to be this product."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_e5500

    "The PowerPC e700 or NG-64 (Next Generation 64-bit) [...] was eventually revealed as the e5500 core."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_e700

    "The e700 is not based on e600."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:PowerPC_e700

    I was extremely surprised to actually find a Freescale PDF file (dating September 2005) supporting his view:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060623094707/http://www.freescale.com/files/abstract/overview/FTF_BN112.pdf (page 35)

    Can it really be that e700 was supposed to be based on e500 (and not on e600) from the very beginning? For instance, I couldn't find one single document listing AltiVec as a planned e700 feature, which is further supporting the Wikipedia editor's view.

    Edit: some more documents indicating that e700 was supposed to be a continuation of e500:

    From June 2005, few weeks after Apple's switch announcement:
    http://www.freescale.com/files/community_files/MCUCOMM/1033_e300_e500_e600_comp.pdf (page 7 indicates e700 to become the basis of future PowerQUICC processors)

    From September 2007:
    http://www.power.org/devcon/07/Session_Downloads/PADC07_Maguire_Sept25_MPC5121e_Freescale_final.pdf (page 8 lists e700 together with e500 in "Book III-E" column)

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf on 2011/3/4 13:13 ]
  • »24.06.10 - 16:57
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2018 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Can it really be that e700 was supposed to be based on e500 (and not on e600) from the very beginning? For instance, I couldn't find one single document listing AltiVec as a planned e700 feature, which is further supporting the Wikipedia editor's view.


    I just looked up my older Fresscale documents (from 2005). I found the e700 only in the context of network processors. And while it isn't stated that the e700 would include Altivec the evolution diagram suggests that.
    There are two major branches on the diagram, one for the e500 core with several 85xx chips on it. That branch just continues with an arrow to the future.
    The second major branch starts with 74xx and branches itself in 2005 into two subarrows, one continuing teh 74xx series and one integrated host processors starting withe the 8641D and directly continues with the 87xx (64 Bit, 2.5 GHz).
    *I* would understand that diagram in a way that the e700 would be the continuation of the e600. But it is nowhere explicitly stated in my documents.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »24.06.10 - 19:02
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2018 from 2003/6/4
    Just another addition: When Apple announced their switch, freescale put the e700 quite immediately on hold and during a talk a Freescale guy used Apple's switch as the reason for putting it on hold. The e700 was aimed at Apple, Therefore I akways thought it was just the successor of the e600 with Altivec. Because I think Apple would not have been pleased without Altivec. Plus, somewhere in the back of my mind I think I heard of Altivec being part of the e700 core. But my old, rusty brain may be wrong though...
    Maybe after Apple left and Freescale saw teh network communication as their new major target they decided to make the e700 a Altivec-less core which then could better get derived from the e500. Since teh e700 was mostly paper work at that time, I think it is pretty possible, that Freescale just changed the basics of the e700.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »24.06.10 - 19:15
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I just looked up my older Fresscale documents (from 2005). I found the e700 only in
    > the context of network processors. And while it isn't stated that the e700 would include
    > Altivec the evolution diagram suggests that. [...] integrated host processors starting withe
    > the 8641D and directly continues with the 87xx (64 Bit, 2.5 GHz).

    Is that 2005 document from before or after Apple's switch announcement (June)? (Apdf -> "Ansicht" -> "Informationen" -> "Letzte Aenderung")
  • »24.06.10 - 20:06
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2018 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    Is that 2005 document from before or after Apple's switch announcement (June)? (Apdf -> "Ansicht" -> "Informationen" -> "Letzte Aenderung")


    I think there a serious issues with APDF feeding a *paper* folder ;-) Maybe i should send out a bug report...
    While the event took place briefly after Apple announced the switch I think the talk (i.e. the ppt slides) was prepared before.

    [ Edited by Zylesea on 2010/6/24 23:19 ]
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »24.06.10 - 20:17
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > during a talk a Freescale guy used Apple's switch as the reason for putting it on hold.

    Yes, I've known that story from you.

    > I akways thought it was just the successor of the e600 with Altivec.

    Me too. That's why I'm so astonished by what the Wikipedia articles say in that regard.

    > somewhere in the back of my mind I think I heard of Altivec being part of the e700 core.

    I thought so too. But maybe you and me were just implying that by assuming it would be derived from e600? Otherwise I'd find it odd that I can't chase down an (official) online document explicitly stating AltiVec as an e700 feature.

    > Maybe after Apple left and Freescale saw teh network communication as their new
    > major target they decided to make the e700 a Altivec-less core which then could
    > better get derived from the e500. Since teh e700 was mostly paper work at that time,
    > I think it is pretty possible, that Freescale just changed the basics of the e700.

    Interesting thought :-)
  • »24.06.10 - 20:22
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:

    my old, rusty brain may be wrong though...


    Don't worry Ulrich, many in the audience are old and rusty too! I guess we love this debate anyway. But you guys are talking about either abandoned, crippled, or forthcoming products. Don't you think it's a pity not talking about something real?
  • »25.06.10 - 07:28
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > you guys are talking about either abandoned, crippled, or forthcoming products.
    > Don't you think it's a pity not talking about something real?

    The announcement of the e5500 core *is* real ;-) And I find it interesting to discuss if that core is what was once announced as the e700 core because there seem to exist completely opposing answers to that question with good arguments on both sides.
  • »25.06.10 - 10:55
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    The announcement of the e5500 core *is* real


    Yes, I'm not saying it isn't. What I mean is that, precisely, it's just an announcement. Lucky people using regular computers have the joy of talking about things that they can actually touch.

    Quote:

    I find it interesting to discuss


    Of course, me too!
  • »25.06.10 - 11:20
    Profile