@discreetfx,

Do you really get that much support with MorphOS? Compared to AROS which has mailing lists and forums and an IRC channel too?

The FreeBSD guys made their choice with their license which gets BSD software out to the rest of the world. The same license made WebKit the best browser engine on the planet - so much so that Apple, Nokia and Google's contributions (which they did NOT need to make) continue to make it the best free AND paid for browser on the planet (by paid for, I mean for Apple you would probably do better to be running a Mac, and for Nokia, the chances are you bought a $500 phone). The same kind of license, ironically, applies to the TCP/IP stack running on MorphOS, many of the included tools and features (including PNG icons).

With AROS on the Efika MX, you need to buy the Efika MX. Isn't that a fair enough price for the support you'd get? The original idea was that the Efika port of MorphOS would be free, and Genesi actually paid up front for this (while it was still MorphOS 1.5), and until it took 2 years to actually get there, was still the plan.

Did your 150 Euro make up for the 2 years without an OS update? :)

Let's be honest; there is a lock-in with MorphOS, which is the hardware. It only runs on discontinued products. We no longer actively support the Pegasos and the Efika will probably lapse except for special cases in a few years. Apple have not made a PowerPC Mac Mini for 3 and a half years. It would be better for MorphOS all-round if it ran on hardware that, while still a lock-in to certain hardware models, was actually purchasable without going to ebay or Craigslist.

Without that hardware available, the number of new users will be absolutely zero, and the market can only decrease.

@Neko

We love AROS and are developing a version of Aladdin 4D 6.0 for it. It's amazing how far AROS has come recently. Having a virtual machine version was a great idea to get more people trying it out. AROS should have a basic version for free and a higher end version that costs money. It would bring in more resources to advance AROS even further. You bought up Webkit and it's awesome. Free works in that case since all web browsers have to be free thanks to Microsoft and the killing of Netscape. We don't mind Mac's and our main system is a MacBook Pro with an iPhone 3GS. MorphOS 2.3 is a fantastic operating system, it's future is up to the MorphOS Team. Quality software development always takes time and hard work. Only the MorphOS Team knows what a far price is for their labor.

[ Edited by discreetfx on 2009/8/28 1:06 ]

[ Edited by discreetfx on 2009/8/28 1:10 ]

[ Edited by discreetfx on 2009/8/28 1:13 ]

[ Edited by discreetfx on 2009/8/28 1:15 ]

[ Edited by discreetfx on 2009/8/28 1:16 ]

[ Edited by discreetfx on 2009/8/28 1:24 ]

Matt, I'm curious, is this your personal opinion or official Genesi policy?

Matt, I'm curious, is this your personal opinion or official Genesi policy?

I guess it is official, looking at his signature.

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Sure, as would I, why would you even mention it you daft bugger? :P

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Sure, but the important difference here (as is what I was trying to tell you in my first post) is that they were trying to offer a complete and compelling product .. too bad they failed, as I'm sure Genesi will do too unless they come up with something that would actually appeal to a broader market.

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The same to you, next time you might actually want to read the whole post before replying... :P


- CISC

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.. And nothing to do with underpowered and lowspecced hardware? :)

@Neko

Reading your posts through the thread, I'm not sure what your goal is. The first impression is that you want MorphOS on Efika MX (and ARM architecture, generally speaking). I guess there are more "business style" ways to achieve this, better than pitching PPC being a dead end (which may be true, but your way of using this fact in discussion is not very nice).

The second thought is you are promoting AROS as multi-architecture AmigaOS clone, working (in the future) on Efika MX. But then promoting a product by bashing its competitors just does not work. It is also worth noting, that AROS software base is thin, even compared with MorphOS.

The last alternative is just you are getting some cheap entertainment on this forum, but then I would't sign it with the professional signature.

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That is capable of having up to 512mb RAM, but has been crippled by only being available with 128mb and having firmware that does not allow it to be upgraded to any other amount of RAM (or so I have been told).

But isn't there one real poblematic issue with MorphOS: What comes after the Mac port? I definitly like the step by step approach and think it was the best decision to use old Apple hardware to sustain hardware for the next time. But once MorpOS for the Mini (and maybe the powerbook and iBook) is out -- what's on scheudule afterwards?
I think there are precisely two choices how to proceed:
Either Keep the ppc path (however that wil be achieved) or switch architecture.
In the 2nd case the alternative is either x86 or ARM. If ARM gets chosen, then the Genesi products seem pretty fine, but so do a lot of other products. The only advantage for Genesi woud be that in earlier times there was a cooperation between the MorphOS-Team and Genesi. I think the outcome was pretty nice...

[ Edited by Zylesea on 2009/8/28 9:41 ]

@ Zylesea

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While I understand your curiosity as a user, there is zero incentive to discuss in public what may or may not happen years in the future. If the history of the Amiga has taught us anything it is what damage can be caused when available real-world products are being overshadowed by vapourware.

If there was any confirmation that MorphOS will move to another processor architecture in 201x, this will most certainly not increase interest in the existing PowerPC versions but it could potentially convince some people to maybe not get a Mac Mini G4 now and wait for that yummy MorphOS 5.0 that is to be released at some unspecified point in the future.

The whole idea behind the demo mode of MorphOS is to keep people focused on the here and now and enable them to test the operating system and see if it fits their requirements *as-is* *today*. If it is does, you are free to buy a key to disable the time limitation. If it does not, you might want to resell that $99 Efika mainboard to someone else or keep it if the *free* MorphOS demo is sufficient for you. Just do not buy MorphOS based on what you personally hope it will become some day rather than what it is in the present because the developers are not making any promises regarding the future just to get an extra sale.

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I think I am with you on that generally, but there is also another way to see it: Without a kind of far going road map one might think (note the conditional!) MorphOS would be on a dead end and therefore leave the train and neither use MorphOS 2.x nor wait for MorphOS 5.0...
Just for the record: *I* don't think that, but others might.

|||

[ Edited by Velcro_SP 24.04.2011 - 07:22 ]

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What's wrong with keeping a modest roadmap somewhere public? I don't mean exagerations like "MorphOS 3.0 will support SMP, OpenCL, <name your wishlist items here>, etc". I refer to the current PowerPC situation -you know, no new available hardware etc. I wish it was different, but it isnt'. The thing is that sooner or later a decision has to be made, regarding the platform. The MorphOS developers have of course the final word and its their decision, but this secrecy isnt' really doing any good. I don't think they would make a bad choice if they stated eg. a 2-year roadmap of what they think should happen. Heck, they could even discard any comments of their userbase if they wish regarding the roadmap, but at least everyone would know that there is a specific roadmap to be followed. Deviations might happen, but that happens even in huge corporations anyway. It's not a military weapon, it's an OS, ffs! And many people -incl. myself- would see this as some first sign of openness on the part of the creators. Even better, if users (ie registered users, so that it becomes an incentive to get a license) would actually have a say in the decisions, via some kind of poll.

My 2c.

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Of course it doesn't. It didn't "need" to implement it in the beginning either.

If you haven't noticed, there are lots of really small (as in "userbase") X86 operating systems done from (relatively) "clean table, at least MenuetOS and SkyOS come to my mind immediately, yet I don't think they are THAT popular. And I wonder what would have made this "68k-incompatible" MorphOS on (say) X86 any more popular?

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Are you trying to claim that supporting (only) PPC somehow makes it impossible for MorphOS to extend beyond / get rid of old Amiga legacy? Because that's what it definitely sounds like. As I see it, it's two different issues.

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No, you have been told that the amount of memory is a *design decision* that has to be made *pre-production*. The Efika must *be built* with more memory *from the start*. The Efikas out in the wild today was designed and built with 128MB, and no firmware upgrade will change that, it's a HW thing. To make an Efika with more memory you will have to build it slightly different from the start. That wouldn't help you, me or anyone else with a 128MB Efika.

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I think Zylesea has a strong and valid point there...

@ Zylesea

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Others might feel and fear a lot of things which may or may not be the result of fact-based rational thinking. In the end, what really matters is that you offer software that people like so much that they are willing to buy / use it. It is really as simple as that.

When people do not actually like the current product offering enough to justify the expense and need a lot of promises regarding the future to lure them into a purchase, they are most likely best advised to just stay away for the time being and perhaps reevaluate their decision in the future in case they are still interested.

It would be nice to have MorphOS running on all kinds of different hardware, including the newest Efika, brand new x86 PC's and Macs, NetBooks and laptops, but the reality is that the size of the MorphOS development team is, what, 20 people, 15, 10, or is it only 5 that can put up serious hours of work on it with the rest just being able to contribute a few hours here and there when they feel like it? They certainly aren't doing it for the money because there isn't any to be made from such a tiny user base. Just some pizza & beer money when you look at the amount that has been made and then spread it over the number of programmers and the amount of time it has taken to make MorphOS and also complete the free updates.

MorphOS started out on PPC for various reasons that made some kind of reasonable sense at that time and the path of least resistance has kept it on PPC, probably at least partly because of the tiny size of the team that is doing all the work on it and the reluctance to take on the increased workload that would be required to port MorphOS to another architecture. That is just a fact of life that there are limited resources (men and hours available to work on this hobby OS) and that it is more work to port the OS to another CPU and architecture than it is to continue porting it to any PPC computers that are available. It is easy for others who only sit on the sidelines watching MorphOS progress slowly to second guess the team and spout their views of what should have been done and which platforms should be ported to next, but none of them are actually doing the work for next to no pay, so they have no idea of exactly just how much trouble and how many hours are involved in doing what has already been completed, or how much more it would take to port to a different architecture and CPU.

Yes, it took maybe 18 months to get a stable port of MorphOS for the Efika and only the development team would know how much longer (or shorter, but I doubt it) it would take them to do a port to ARM, or any x86 hardware. I would think that everyone should take all of these things into their considerations before they criticize the MorphOS development team for not switching to some other platform. I am sure the team would like to have MorphOS on more modern and better performing hardware, but they must weigh the amount of time they think it will take them to complete such a switch against the amount of manpower and time the team has available to perform such a port to a different architecture. I am confident that they will make a switch some day if they can keep the team together, or perhaps get more help to make such a big step possible in a reasonable time frame. Only the development team can know what their resources really are and when the time will be right FOR THEM to make any change.

end rant

Amigadave: amen

[ Edited by pampers on 2009/8/28 17:09 ]

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That is not what I read from my long argument with Matt months ago? Yes, there might have to be other hardware changes besides just adding, or replacing the original RAM, or both to have an Efika with more RAM, but the pcb itself would not be different and the changes would be POSSIBLE, just not cost effective to make any change probable. The Efika would not have different pcb's for each different RAM configuration and everything else on the board COULD be replaced, or altered, but it is just not practical or cost effective. The design decision to only produce the Efika with 128mb of RAM in the first place was a mistake in my opinion, as I wonder how much difference in price it would have been in the beginning to fit it with the maximum 512mb of RAM? At least it was a mistake for us MorphOS users, but then we were not the target market for that board, the embedded auto makers were the market and they most likely did not need the additional RAM, so I understand the decision. Saving what ever amount of money on each board was additional profit in the pockets of Genesi and less capital outlay of funds to manufacture the Efika. It is just too bad that it did not make economic sense to make a smaller production run of the Efika with the maximum 512mb of RAM installed so the MorphOS users would have had a choice between the 128mb and 512mb boards.

It is my understanding that if someone, or some group made the firmware changes and the correct RAM (and possibly some other components that might be needed) could be found for sale, existing Efika's could be altered to use more RAM. This would be in violation of the firmware agreement that prohibits alteration and it is not likely that anyone or any group would do it because the benefit would not justify the cost in time, effort and parts, unless that someone, or some group got permission to do so and was willing to do it for free and the parts could be found.

I know that this is not going to happen, but look at the guy who spent thousands of Euros of his own money to redesign a new 030 motherboard for the A1000. I think stranger things have happened in the world of Amiga over the past 20 years, so anything is possible.

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where did that get from?

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I'm sorry but this is not the way it happens. I began to look into hardware myself lately, so let's give an example: let's say you have 150k (?,$, whatever it doesnt' matter) initial budget and you want to design the motherboard of your dreams. Let's say for the sake of argument that the PCB design phase with prototypes will cost you arount 80k? (it can be lower or higher, depending on the design of course). The factory tells you that production runs happen in batches of 500 -or similar quantity, for technical reasons but also for parts price reasons- , so you have to see that the remaining money (70k?) will last for the production AND the parts. For 500 units, this means you have to make sure that the cost/unit will cost at most 140?. But you're short of some cash, so you have to change the design and lower the specs somewhat. Now this varies greatly depending on the PCB, but let's say that RAM is easy to dismiss, because RAM chips are expensive and more expendable, the RAM capacity is variable. In an embedded board where most peripherals is on a SoC, you can't dismiss ethernet, you can't dismiss audio, you can't dismiss the CPU(!), so you have to take down on RAM.

Well, theoretically, you could lower your profits and use that amount to increase RAM, but that's really bad, bad, bad business practice. A product that doesn't make a profit is doomed to fail.

Disclaimer: I don't really know what happened with the Efika, and this is NOT an explanation of why it has only 128MB or RAM (which imho are just fine, the Efika is not a really desktop system). But it's a problem I've come unto myself and I think pretty much everyone that produces soemthing (and software of course, specs minimizing are not only hw-related).

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Indeed. But what if it happens? What if someone releases tomorrow or in 6/12 months a modern PPC motherboard that fulfills your wishes? Would everyone here rush out to buy it? I don't think so.

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Do some research about where most of the Efika boards sold to and read the comments about the 2% to 5% of the Efika boards sold having MorphOS licenses. Only makes sense that the remaining 95% to 98% of the Efika boards produced sold to the embedded and auto maker market, unless they are still sitting on supplier's shelves, but Genesi is sold out of their stock, so they must have gone somewhere.

[ Edited by amigadave on 2009/8/28 10:30 ]

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lol, I have 5 efikas here and I'm in no way related to the auto market - I do however work on embedded projects occasionally. If you were referring to embedded AND/OR auto markets, then ok, I agree 100% and there is no argument, my objection stands only if you were referring to the auto market alone.

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Amen to that! People can try MorphOS on the machines it is available, and if they like it as it is now, they should register, otherwise it would mean MorphOS is not the solution for them right now. Communications right now about any possible log term plan are out of the loop and do not change the way I can use my MorphOS machines right now.
On the other hand, however, some more inputs about the short term plans would not do much harm, IMHO. Having a better idea about the G4 Mac support for sure is not going to harm sales of Pegasoses or Efikas, nor registrations: I am pretty sure that most of us that were interested in that, had more than enough time to find, set up and register their machines.

And just to be clear: I'd like the team to know that I like and enjoy MorphOS as it is now (2.3), and appreciate their past and present work and efforts. In fact I did not register 2 copies of it for my two machines just to generically "support" them, but because I use said machines, and like doing so.

Kind regards,
Andrea

> If you're designing a car from scratch and not just plagiarising
> chassis from old models and components from old models, any i.MX
> chip would do the job.

I'm really no expert regarding automotive semiconductors but the following Freescale automotive documents:

http://www.freescale.com/files/automotive/doc/brochure/BR32BITAUTOMP.pdf
(no mention of i.MX at all)

http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/roadmap/BRAUTOPRDCTMAP.pdf
(don't miss the smallish table near bottom on the right of page 2)

http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/selector_guide/SG187.pdf
(pages 20 to 24)

...don't make the impression to me as if i.MX could currently replace each and every MPC55xx/56xx for each and every use case, even if the car is designed from scratch.