Comment removed: Reply to trolling

[ Edited by hooligan on 2009/2/12 15:28 ]

> Hyperion had MorphOS running on the Pegasos2 *a long time ago*

Yes, no news there.

> and so did others, but by using a different method.

Any details? Genesi already attempted to give some right here in this thread, but I don't quite understand.

Probably some OS4 betatesters were running OS4 on Peg long time ago. Peg1 hardware was not much different from Eyetech's Amiga1.

I know that many OS4 betatesters were also running Roadshow on their 68k Amigas. Roadshow was never released for 68k but it was there on OS4 FTP and betatesters were running it on their old Amigas and even on MorphOS.

> Probably some OS4 betatesters were running OS4 on Peg long time ago.
> Peg1 hardware was not much different from Eyetech's Amiga1.

Hmm, that doesn't fit ferrels's statement quite well. He talks about Peg2, not Peg1. And I somehow doubt OS4 betatesters would have offered him their help in getting OS4 running on Pegasos. Furthermore, he talks about "hacked copies of OS4.0". Betatesters would need no "hack". And takemehomegrandma claims the "others" used a method different from Hyperion's, ruling your "betatesters theorie" out.

@ takemehomegrandma

Quote:

It does not matter now? Well, the single reason for this discussion thread is that someone is curious how it is technically possible that various people supposedly "hacked" (notepad.exe, anyone?) a version of a closed source operating system written for Eyetech's A1 and managed to make it run on a Pegasos2 which is a substantially different mainboard.

Any pointers to the firmware are rather confusing because the firmware does not magically rewrite the OS drivers to support alien hardware. This statement would make whole lot more sense if this discussion would be about the A1 and the Pegasos 1 which are in fact fairly similar mainboards. But, it is not.

Based on common sense (which can be misleading occasionally), one would assume that somebody must have had access to the source code and made a quick and dirty adaptation which appears to be what happened with the unfinished Mac Mini port. Any alternative scenarios seem extremely unlikely/impossible.

Quote:

I think that AmigaOS 4 should be written instead of MorphOS for this phrase to make any sense right?

The very sad thing after all is that I spent almost 850 euros to build a Samantha just to see that "mighty and superior" 4.1, only to discover two months later that the mentioned OS would run fine and would have official support on my favorite hardware which is Peg2. You know this was the first thing I thought: "they had it ready a long time ago but waited the right time to deliver", I doubt that they built 4.1 from the scratch just for Peg during the last months.

Hacked OS 4.0 versions back on the days of silence? Yes ok this could be real and would be great to know how, just for the record. But on the other hand I still can not follow how this remained so "silent". Back in that MacMini Os 4 hacked verison days, there was a massive storm of posts everywhere started from a single post that characterized as "rumor" / "hoax or what?" etc? Maybe this was a part of the plan as well... I do not know?

On the other hand hacked version of 4.0 in Peg2 would bring the sales lower when the official thing would be released, another reason for silence back then.

Sorry to point that but to my eyes is all about money, except MorphOS that still carries an original underground Amiga spirit.


[ Edited by CountRaven on 2009/2/14 2:12 ]

Quote:

Ooops! Of course you are right, my mistake there...

> Ooops! Of course you are right, my mistake there...

Hehe, I didn't even notice :-)

Quote:

There is also OS4 for Macs. Who leaked it if not beta testers? Who is giving help to run OS4 on Macs if not beta testers?

What ferrels claims makes no sense: "The BIOS on a PegII is flashable. The PegII uses the same graphics, the same processor, and the same drive subsystem." He clearly does not know what he is talking about.

Whoever offered him help must have been from OS4 inner circle. Beta tester or core developer.

> There is also OS4 for Macs. Who leaked it if not beta testers?

Then (now ex-) OS4 Team member Andrea Vallinotto via wegster on amigaworld.net:

"I'm the author of said port, done over an year ago on behalf of ACube [...]. Such ISO image not only contains parts of OS4 (a commercial product) but also contain modules that are NOT part of either OS4 for A1 nor Classic, and are fully copyrighted by me. I never gave permission to anyone, least this AmigaMac guy, to distribute these files. So owning and using those modules is breaching my intellectual property (IP) and is a clear act of piracy. [...] As you probably have seen by the european lawsuit, between me, the two Friedens and against Hyperion and AInc, I'm more than willing to protect my IP from piracy or any other form of unauthorized use. For the record, that ISO image was obtained from a stolen laptop and there is a police report about that (in the USA). That AmigaMac guy is not some benefactor, he's a criminal."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=24993&forum=33&start=180#419982

Recently, OS4 Team member Joerg Strohmayer even claimed (German, beware) that Vallinotto developed Moana without permission, rendering Moana *per se* a pirate copy of OS4, with Vallinotto == pirate.

> Who is giving help to run OS4 on Macs if not beta testers?

It's been this AmigaMac guy over at EAB, even the Moana author claims not to know him.

> What ferrels claims makes no sense: [...] He clearly does not know
> what he is talking about.

That's what I thought first too about his whole posting. But Genesi and takemehomegrandma in this very thread here at least supported his claim of certain people having run OS4.0 on Peg2 since years. Apparently, they don't just guess, but seem to *know*.

> Whoever offered him help must have been from OS4 inner circle. Beta
> tester or core developer.

That may very well be. But as I said, it contradicts takemehomegrandma's statement. As long as he doesn't clarify (my question to him still goes unanswered) I'm not convinced by either side.

Quote:

I have my sources claiming that Hyperion had OS4 running on Pegasos years ago (and I assumed it was Peg1 but it was never specified). It comes from sources I trust but I never managed to get first hand information and as a such it always was just unconfirmed rumour for me.

Anyway... I dont know who is/was that source ferrels is referring to.

Quote:

I didnt know that.

Porting an OS privately to another HW (even without permission from upper management) probably is not illegal per se if it is not covered in the developer contract. But distributing such copies without permission of course is which makes him pirate... even though done in good faith.

But it again proves that you can have leaks where you least expected it. And it does not mean OS4 only but also MorphOS...


[ Edited by itix on 2009/2/14 17:19 ]

Quote:

Well said! Those people dual booting MorphOS and AmigaOS4.1 are almost as bad as people running gulp... Linux..

Still I've been running the PPC version of Windows NT4 on my peg or a few months now, what does that make me? Firefox suprssingly works, but the USB dosn't.










no, not really.

Quote:

hahah that was highly ironical : )
who cares who is running what, certainly not me : )

> Those people dual booting MorphOS and AmigaOS4.1

This thread is about OS4.*0* on Pegasos II, not OS4.1 -- at least as long it's the Pegasos II version that is. OS4.1 for AmigaOne/A1 or Sam440 running on Pegasos might be right within the scope of this thread.

> who cares who is running what, certainly not me : )

Then I'd recommend you'd do yourself a favour and stay out of this thread. Thanks.

Quote:

oh it's getting sweeter and sweeter here...

> oh it's getting sweeter and sweeter here...

If you prefer to waste your precious time participating in a thread with a topic you don't care about (as you said yourself), then feel free to stay and participate in whatever way you like. I'm looking forward to your valuable contributions ;-)

Update:

> Recently, OS4 Team member Joerg Strohmayer even claimed [...]
> that Vallinotto developed Moana without permission, rendering Moana
> *per se* a pirate copy of OS4, with Vallinotto == pirate.

OS4 Team member Costel "Cyborg" Mincea confirms this assessment:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?f=1%26t=503

This doesn't hinder Vallinotto from promoting his skills by listing this (allegedly) illegal development he says he did when working for ACube:

Quote:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30486&forum=33&start=40#535115

Strange, as ACube was founded only in January 2007:

http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=company


Edit:

Some statements from ACube on Moana:

"Apple were leaving the PPC MacMini behind and it could be a good idea to purchase some of them and offer them on the Amiga market. Later Hyperion/Amiga Inc didn't want to follow us on this and it ended there. Too bad because it was the right time to do it [...]. [...] Really I don't remember [if Hyperion was in knowledge of the port]. It was so long time ago.."
http://www.retroplanet.gr/content/interview-acube-srl-%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%AD%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%BE%CE%B7-acube-srl

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 28.09.2016 - 11:07 ]

@Andreas_Wolf

Strohmayer wrote some Mac Mini drivers (IDE for example IIRC) so his statement is funny (like his twisted logic of ordering SGuillard to remove TD64 support of existing ide/sata drivers claiming that it was an evil MorphOS extension)

Killing Mac Mini port was a commercial suicide: Hyperion forgot they were a software company and decided that they could earn more money forcing users to buy hardware with poor performance/price ratio. And the top of the cake was "Sam" toy computers: rather poor machines released 7 years later than Pegasos2 that were unable to compete with it.

BTW, Peg1 could run OS4 if the firmware had a full rtas tree. Afaik it hasn't or is incomplete. I doubt Genesi/DCE will ever update it but maybe it would be possible to do some kind of forth script (like the one available for Efika) to complete the rtas tree.

> Strohmayer wrote some Mac Mini drivers (IDE for example
> IIRC) so his statement is funny

Interesting. Thanks for info.

> like his twisted logic of ordering SGuillard to remove TD64
> support of existing ide/sata drivers claiming that it was
> an evil MorphOS extension

AFAIR he proclaimed that TD64 was a bug. I think he wouldn't probably dare to say the bad 'M' word in public ;-)

> the top of the cake was "Sam" toy computers: rather poor
> machines released 7 years later than Pegasos2 that were
> unable to compete with it.

The Sam that was released 7 years after the Peg2 is the Sam460ex. If we compare the CPUs (1.15 GHz PPC460EX vs. 1.0 GHz G4) for scalar code there's not much difference:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=485

From that you can calculate that of the six scalar dnetc cores the 1.0 GHz G4 wins at three (10%, 7%, 3% faster), the 1.15 GHz PPC460EX wins at one (17% faster) and with two dnetc cores there's less than 1% difference between the CPUs. For AltiVec code on the G4 vs. scalar code on the PPC460EX the outcome would be obvious, though.
But also for cache and RAM performances the Peg2 G4 is not the clear winner over the Sam460ex:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=487
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=639
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=640

As you see, while the Peg2 G4 wins in L2 throughput it apparently loses in L1 and RAM throughputs against the Sam460ex.
And finally in the Sam460ex there's SATA2 vs. Peg2's PATA, USB2 vs. Peg2's USB1 and PCIe vs. Peg2's (fake) AGP.

> Peg1 could run OS4 if the firmware had a full rtas tree.
> Afaik it hasn't or is incomplete.

Yes, I know that OS4 on Peg2 relies on RTAS. Btw, Trevor Dickinson revealed that he was beta tester for OS4 on Peg1:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6220&start=82

It's a pity the port to Peg1 never came off. It would have made my Peg1 sale much more profitable than it was ;-)

> I doubt Genesi/DCE will ever update it

DCE? You mean bplan here, right? And yes, this ship has definitely sailed by now. When I still had my Peg1 I really wanted to have better Linux compatibility, so it had really pissed me off that BBRV were promising a firmware update for years but nothing ever came.

I remember when OS4 came out for the Peg II at last, I just about fell out of my chair laughing at it. If you all remember back when the PEg II was still relatively new I offered to fund the $10,000 Hyperian said it would cost, and then ultimately was shut down and told it wouldn't happen. Apple stock has done very well for me, and in the long run I am glad I didn't do it. That $10,000 has turned into much much more over the years now!!

> Strohmayer wrote some Mac Mini drivers (IDE for example
> IIRC) so his statement is funny

Seems there were also others helping Vallinotto with Moana:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=33995&forum=33&start=60#623686

acill

Well i know you have been playing apple stocks for years now and when we hung out back when peg2 first was out i remember you telling me about your offer to fund development.. didnt you do the same for Morphos team and they refused? Well i'm happy for you dude because if you still have apple shares they are going to be worth as much as google soon! :)

@ thread

the most critical mistake imho that Hyperion has made ,and continues to make, is porting OS4 to alien custom hw platforms (i.e. sam, x1k, etc) instead of focusing on high end commmodity apple g4 hw platforms as morphos team has done.

> alien custom hw platforms (i.e. sam, x1k, etc) instead of focusing on
> high end commmodity apple g4 hw platforms

Not being a native English speaker I wonder what 'alien' means in this context and how Apple hardware is any less 'alien' than Sam4x0 or X1000, considering that especially the X1000 is claimed to be created specifically for running OS4.

andreas

I'd call you an "alien" but I know that you are actually a roBOT...

have no fear you are not alone for Ralph Schmidt is a robot as well (hence laire) lulz