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It's not a business. It is also not economical for users. The proposed 7447A and 7448 upgrades would have given very little performance difference. Since the bus speed of the Discovery II was 133MHz, all you get is clock speed - 1.4Ghz or 1.6Ghz at the top end for these chips.

Therefore, given the pricing of the 7447A and 7448, making your system 50% faster would cost more than the Pegasos itself to end-users. They would also have generated more than 50% extra heat and required heavier cooling solutions (bplan did have a passive 7447A cooler that would have worked though, tested up to 1.4Ghz).

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It would cost about the same to make as a new computer from scratch, since it would also be.. from scratch.

The best options for putting a co-processor on a PCI-e card would be something of the MPC83xx class (8349E, 8378E) which tops out at 600Mhz. After that you have to cool it like a graphics card. It would also have to be a very complicated software driver to enable it to work - especially when thinking of displays etc. and transferring data between PC host and target PCIe.

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Nothing, but why does everything Genesi does have to have anything to do with MorphOS?

You might note the "how many registrations" thread and extrapolate how much money MorphOS has made in the last 8 months and decide if working with MorphOS can fund everything that you want to use MorphOS.

[ Edited by Neko on 2009/1/25 18:50 ]

I wonder what the feature for PPC is now ? and more what is the feature for MorphOS (and OS4) if it sticks to PPC ?

Is it doomed to stick with used apples, and underpowered hardware that is designed to use in a router or a decoder or something like that ?

And what happened with the Cell ? it's used in a PS3 and that's it ? What a shame.



[ Edited by Oepabakkes on 2009/1/25 22:20 ]

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Genesi suggested that idea not me..

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Maybe as complicated on software side, but hardware would use much less
components.

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I bought my Pegasos computer because Genesi announced it in conjunction
with MorphOS. There was ODW to run Linux at a first glance.
Not everything Genesi does might be related to MorphOS, but what kind
of business Genesi has apart from having sold and given away Pegasos
and Efikas? I hope you have success with any device you produce,
even more if it's able to run morphos.

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I might then bet my head that MorphOS or Genesi are on the wrong market, wrong platform, and wrong devices if they are thinking into
serious business.
Here the only reality is that we have MorphOS2.2 running on our
Pegasos G3/G4 and Efikas, myself still not registered.
1.4.5 was free to me except for my donation to the USB stack programmer (C. Hodges)
That it's terribly expensive to support.
Small comunity, high prices, no hardware replacement
in case of hardware disaster.

The registrations number must be compared, to the total number
of Pegasos and Efikas sold, data which I don't know.
And the number of registrations seems to be near 500, too much
in my modest opinion.

One simple Question. Mac took over Intel hardware.
It was so hard to translate this platform to an X86 model, or maybe
yo thought it was no business at all?

Regards

> And what happened with the Cell ? it's used in a PS3 and that's it ?

No, that's not it:

http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/bladecenter/hardware/servers/qs21/
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/bladecenter/hardware/servers/qs22/
http://www.lanl.gov/roadrunner/ (using the above)
http://www.mc.com/microsites/cell/products.aspx (several boards and systems)
http://us.fixstars.com/products/gigaaccel/
http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/gigaaccel180/ (same as above)
http://www.matrix-vision.com/products/cell/mvxcell8i.php?lang=en
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2009_01/pr0701.htm (upcoming "Cell TVs")
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/ZEGO/ZEGO.shtml (upcoming, press release, brochure)

You are right.

This too:

http://www.powerdeveloper.org/platforms/cell

R&B

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Find a market where they need a high performance desktop-style system with PC-peripheral support based on MPC8610 or MPC8640D and we'll jump on it and go with it.

Right now the buzz is around ARM so we'll do ARM. Our MPC8610 Netbook spec is not abandoned.. it's just looking for a partner. Unfortunately the advantages in an MPC8610 Netbook are basically only in better performance and lower power consumption than Atom, however it will not run Windows and "but it can run MorphOS!" is really, really not a selling point to anyone.

While this is true, an MPC8610 Netbook may appear but you will still have to pay again for MorphOS. Unless there is a way MorphOS can be subsidised through sales of a MUCH higher selling product or OS, it needs to be that way.

The other problem - which strikes ARM too - is that Linux distributions available today DO NOT come up to scratch as a viable alternative to Windows. No, not Ubuntu, not Fedora, not SUSE. Linus Torvalds just switched back from KDE to GNOME, even though he thinks GNOME sucks, just because KDE 4.x is really not ready yet and won't be for another 6-9 months.

What are you meant to do here? Ship something that sucks, according to the creator of Linux, that's what. It's the only solution anyone has. All you can do after that is hope that you can ship a viable upgrade later.

Good things are on the horizon though; while KDE 4.3 or 4.4 appears you may be given a Qt-based desktop written by the Ubuntu guys, since it went LGPL this makes it a complete, open-source compliant platform which you do not need to play with the KDE exception to enjoy. However, this "Netbook Qt Desktop" will probably be 12 months or 18 months away..

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There are two points here:

1. Eee shipped with Linux/QT didn't it ? Has that stopped shipping now ? It seems to me that the market is there if you have the right product.

2. If mainstream consumers accepted this "weird Linux" thing rather than their beloved Windows then MorphOS potentially could be a suitable netbook OS. Although it's far from being ready. Us MorphOS users can dream about that.

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Mr Torvalds says many things. Perhaps he had corn flakes for breakfast today instead of toast and jam.

If you are stuck for a fast Linux desktop for low power devices then there are a number of available projects, some of which are quite mature. For example, you could easily go for QT embedded/QT Palmtop Environment as in Eee or Sharp Zaurus; then there is UME (is that what you are referring to ?) and also LXDE. Linux users are not waiting for "another 6-9 months" just to get a usable desktop.

By the way, I appreciate you dropping in to enlighten us on the present situation. It's just a shame that Genesi is still so far from a new product that we might enjoy.

all great links about cell .. but hardly mainstream hardware with exception of the PS3. The PS3 is to closed, so unless the unlikely event occurs that the MorphOSteam cuts a deal with them .. I am still not convinced what future a PPCOS has on the (niche) desktopmarket ?

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Ppl accept Linux on the Eee because it does the things that aere expected. *If* MorphOS came with OOo and a *really* decent browser with Flash support then ppl would accept MorphOS, too. Maybe some folks would even fall in love with MorphOS.
But from the three cruicial issues a netbook must do (multimedia, internet, office) MorphOS is only in the multimedia domain up to date (MPlayer, nice audio players). In the Internet domain, there are good parts: good enough mailers, nice IRCs, ftp is okay, but for browsing Sputnik is just not enough (yet!!). Plus there is no Flash support (no, this old flash player on Aminet is not an option). For office situation is compareable weird as for internet, with the exception that there is no development in this area. ButI'd say Office stuf is the least important, once a browser is advanced you can use google docs or the likes as an option.
Thus, as long as there is no proper www support forget about selling a MorphOS driven maschine to common ppl, once there is, I'd day everything is possible...

koan:
Asus is silently dropping Linux in favour of Windows.

Just look at their latest models - 100% Windows.
Acer does the same, and the rest mostly use Windows.

@ironfist
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Totally irrelevant.

Eee sold a lot of units when it was Linux only and barely any hope of installing anything different. That is proof that you can make a profit and not have to be running Windows. It could happen again if you have the right product and next time it could be another OS...

If you are still not convinced, how about the Nokia N810 ? Nowhere as popular as the Eee but it's a very nice product, running Maemo.

As much as I love MorphOS and my Peg, IMHO this market is drying up. EFIKA, SAM and older PPC Mac Minis are not powerful enough to be a main desktop machine and that is what most of the people who are willing to spend more money want.

Hardware direction is going towards embedded systems style; developers I have spoken to are turned away as soon as they think about how long a compile will take. I can't imagine they would accept developing on a host platform for a target.

I just can't imagine that there is no one willing to invest into a Netbook based on MPC8610 even with Linux running on top.
Most ppl i know that own a netbook use it for browsing and multimedia some of them use it for office stuff when they are in the university.
An 8610 Netbook running MOS would be a great low-end HTPC that is able to play HD maybe FULL-HD content with a better browser it would close that office gap.
So what about a 8610 Netbook with Linux for the short period and MOS as lontime goal doing all the stuff ppl expect from a netbook?

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Heard of the "One Laptop Per Hacker" MIPS based gdium project?
Seriously, aim you producst at people like us, who actually think running somewhat "strange" hardware is cool, we are here. The rest of the world dont give a damn if it doesnt run windows.

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This one really amazes me - what the heck do you mean with "right now"? ARM has been around even longer than powerpc, I have ten or more devices that are ARM based, most of them years old, some dating back more than a decade... newton, ipaq, cowon, zaurus, nslu2 ... there are so many well established names in the ARM business, most phones and PDAs have been ARM based since forever, if I want another ARM machine I have plenty to pick from, why would I or anyone else chose Genesi?

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It's the only compelling selling point Genesi have, at all. Really.
MorphOS aside, there is nothing Genesi has to offer the market, face it.

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If you provide a fairly well specified powerpc netbook, it might even be somewhat expencive, capable of running MorphOS and also open enough for Linux and *BSD, even I might be tempted to get one.

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This is nonsense, really. You could have said the same 5 years ago, and you can say it again in 5 years. Besides, there is windows for ARM. Yes, KDE4 is teh suck, but the marching morons seem quite content with KDE3 and Gnome, actually. The problem is not the OS nor the user interface, the problem is that the apps that "most users" want to run are made for Windows.

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Why dont you join the crowd and build some atom based netbook that can run Windows? Obviously that's the only thing that makes sense, huh?

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Oh, those insanely clever Ubuntu guys will write us a completely new Qt based desktop that will just totally rule? Yeah, that will be the day... haha

But if so, then what?

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You fail to mention _why_ Asus is dropping Linux - unsatisfied costumers!
There are numerous examples of stores selling Linux based Eee-machines without knowing that it's not windows, not warning people about it, even selling them a Linux based Eee along with windows software. A vast majority of the buyers do not want Linux, but do want the white 901. I personally would have bought the black one if I could get it with 4+16GB flash and no windows.

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I dont know anyone outside geekhood who owns a N700/N800/N8210 - do you?

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They are powerfull enough for us, but those who create them should not even try to target mainstream - it's pointless and a waste of resources.

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Huh.. most embedded development is done that way, always was. Why would that make developers turn away? And compiling is fast these days. Oh, and hardware direction is going towards virtualization these days, that is yesterdays hardware is software today. Certain people claim to have had MorphOS running on Qemu already, imagine running MorphOS on a KVM instance from an IBM pSeries or PowerStation, or even emulated from a fast Xeon/Core2?

[ Edited by kolla on 2009/1/30 10:02 ]

@kolla:



- CISC

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And there are less than 100 of you.

We wouldn't even be able to write off the office supplies cost, let alone the development of a new Pegasos.

If you want to fund it, go ahead..

[ Edited by Neko on 2009/1/30 19:05 ]

Actually just because Genesi has posted the schematics for the Pegasos2 doesn't mean that the work needed to manufacture a new run of motherboards wouldn't still be quite daunting.
The actual layout of a complicated 4 layer motherboard and the calculations necessary to produce the correct trace lengths is incredibly complicated. We may have Genesi's schematics, but we don't have their actually circuit board layouts. THAT's where the real complications are.
While the Peg2 design could easily be upgraded to as high as 1.7GHz with a slightly more powerful processor (the 7448), we are still dealing with a relatively slow G4 level system.
Alternately, we could look at the 8610 or the 8641 (which Freescale has published a motherboard schematic for), but are we going to be able to get the components? I can't even get an 8641D out of Freescale because they claim they don't have any for sampling yet.
If we're all really serious about this, we need to consider what's out there (in terms of processors and components) and then set our goals toward something plausible.
I look forward to everyone's input on that idea.
Jim

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They didn't offer matching coats and trousers ?
Sorry, I had to say it ;)

This is not true. When the Eee PC was first offered, they were very open with screenshots that looked nothing like Windows. The people who bought it did so because it was tiny, could edit files and do a bit of internet. It trailblazed the path for netbooks. It was only later, after they built up enough interest, that they considered going to Windows. Presumably with a slightly more powerful model and more favourable licence negotiated from MS; knowing that they could make the sales.

Why should a store have to "warn" people that a device is NOT Windows ? That seems bizarre marketing to me.

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My point was that there are products running a satisfactory version of Linux aimed at the general market; Matt was suggesting that Linux was not ready in some respect.

I know a lot of people who want small, portable computers for internet, editing documents and nothing more. They know that Mac OSX is cooler than Windows but they can't afford it. They don't care about Windows if the device is cheap and small.

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You misread my post. Let me sum up my last points more simply:

IMHO the majority of developers who are interested in MorphOS don't want 2 machines on their desks. They don't want to compile on a powerful machine in order to run on a real and much less powerful machine.

If developers don't write new software for MorphOS, then users won't be interested in buying a low power machine to run an OS that has no applications.

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It's only interesting from an academic point of view.

There are several things that are needed to secure an interesting future for our platform. The main thing is that it has to grow. At the current size the user base is too small to support the market. So what do we need in order to grow and who can do it ?

1. Hardware availability (Genesi, possibly others)
2. Nice development tools, SDK, support forums (MorphOS team, developers)
3. Modern web browser and internet clients (Developers, such as Marcin but don't expect 1 person to do it all)
4. Lively forums (users come and chat about their experiences, ask questions, share knowledge; maybe Targhan can oblige with some statistics, I would be interested to see the number of posts plotted against the number of page views)
5. Home brew software apps (users try to learn a language and do something interesting)

If there is any way to stimulate these 5 points we should do it. Or we can go back to the standard Amiga refrain,

1. Wait for something to happen. (2 more weeks)

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Well have you tried corrrecting them by telling they are wrong?

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We are talking about non-geek users here but never mind, why are they wrong ?

I recently needed to buy a laptop for working at home so I bought a MacBook Pro. I also have a Core Duo laptop at the office running Windows Vista, less than 2 years old. I have installed all updates and can say without a shadow of doubt that Windows Vista sucks. UAC sucks, explorer crashes almost every day, I get screen flicker, sidebar is annoying - I had to turn it off, the list goes on...

I used to use XP at a previous job and it was OK. Business-like. It was much better. I am not anti Windows per se, I just don't like the style. For example, when I adjust the software volume control why does it always have to "ping" ? Why do I have to squeeze everything onto a single screen ? etc.

I think it was Microsoft that invented drag and drop cut and paste (?) Please, please, please, please can we find a way to uninvent that ?

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Theres nothing "cool" in OSX.

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I am with you on this. My Vista installation lasted 45(!) minutes before going back to XP Pro. Vista was a biiig mistake on MS's half.

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XP Pro is without doubt the best major OS available, at least till Win7 is finished(I have heard). It sure has its flaws and is nowhere near perfect but it does the job. Recent years updates finally paid off. I am no Windows-fanboy, quite the opposite, I wish I could have a chance to use MorphOS but sadly atm I can't.

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Multi touch gestures ?

I know this is old technology but it's new to consumer electronics.

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Linux is a major OS and available; I would prefer Ubuntu or OpenSUSE any day.

XP Pro vs OSX ? Can you say "shell" ? I'm sorry, bash on cygwin cannot compare. Dock vs Start bar ? Single screen vs Spaces ? Oh, and try to switch languages without buying a localised version: in OSX it's one setting.

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And hows that "cool" for simple homeuser? You have to do better with that. I call and raise, billions of bytes of more software. Now that's something a homeuser will appreciate.

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Thats you and your opinion which is not the issue here. An average homeuser surely don't want to see any Linux variant if there's a very well known alternative option at hand. I don't blame them, I wouldn't want to run Linux at home either, I occasionally want to play a game and actually have some fun with the computer too. Same goes for the Mac aswell.

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I can say shell. And I can also say I really REALLY don't want to see commandprompt unless I really REALLY NEED to use it. Usually this applies only when using cryptic and complicated commands, which again, an average homeuser will not know how to use.
IMO Start-menu is just as good as a taskbar as most people have shortcuts to often used programs anyway. It does its simple job.
In my 25 years time in computing I have had the need to switch language in an operating system once, so one point goes to you right there :)


I think you're trying to justify things how YOU feel, and not by looking at the bigger picture. Majority don't want what you want.

OK, let me see if I've got the current state of the hardware correct. The Peg2 is no longer in production and is not Rohs compliant. The Efika is relatively slow and has limited memory and expansion capability. The SAM440EP is not supported by Morphos, is only slightly faster than the Efika (slower the the Pegasos), and only offers PCI expansion for video. G4 Macs would be nice, but they're hard to port to because Apple is not very forthcoming about the details of its hardware. The PS3 is too closed (no access to the RSX) and the cell processor is still proprietary.
So, a new computer doesn't sound like such a bad idea. However, the Marvell IV probably isn't one of the components we want to look at. It only has 2 4 lane PCI-e connections. The Freescale 8641D already has more than that built in. So, unless you want to look at adding a Marvell IV controller to something like an 8641D, the Marvell component looks weak (when connected to a 7447A or a 7448).
Also, what processor do we want to consider? The 7447A and the 7448 are the closest to the processors used in the Peg2, so they're the easiest to design in.
The 8640D is available, but its only a little faster than existing Peg2's G3 and G4 (and Morhpos isn't written to take advantage of dual cores). Also, it would require an almost total redesign of the board. The Freescale 8641D is listed as available by Freescale and Freescale has published a reference design for it. That design has its strengths and weaknesses (which we could discuss later), but in recent discussion with Freescale I've learned that they don't consider this chip to be in "Production Mode". So, we might have trouble obtaining that part.
Then there are the current unobtainable processors like the Cell and AMCC's Titan. If any of these new processors were available, they would offer us further options.
Also, no one has considered IBM. Their G5 was the direction Apple took (before going with Intel processors). While the G5 is significantly different (than the G4) , that's also an option.
Right now, I'm personally just waiting for Apple G4 ports. I would not be surprised to see both Morphos and Amiga OS4.1 running on that platform in the future.
But, second hand hardware is only going to get us so far.
So, as I've said before, I'd like to see what you all think in regard to your expectations for new hardware and what components might be used.
Jim

@ Jim

The most promising processors for a new ppc computer that is small, low cost, low power and has decent power for a single core non 64-Bit OS like MorphOS are the Freesacle 8610 and 8640.
For the 8610 there exists a development platform by NEC, the redtail. Unfortunately there's little information about that board to get on the net (and the little that is there is in Japanese).

Genesi have put their plans of a 8610 based board/netbook on hold, but I still guess a cooperation between the NEC redtail folks and Genesi/bplan could lead to soemthing fruitful.
I guess we're not in a particular hurry anyway, trains have left the staion aeons ago....