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Future of OS3, OS4 and MOS gaming and HW
  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 615 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    MagicSN

    # 54

    Caterpillar Posts: 22 from 2024/7/11

    Again - Licensing for MOS or AROS would then raise the cost for a licence.

    Currently biggest Amiga market for games (even in the various small sub-markets) is AmigaOS 3.x 68k. So if doing anything which makes sense it would need to be a license for AmigaOS. Adding in MorphOS and AROS would triple the license price. You won't get a license for "something which is mostly source-code compatible to AmigaOS".

    And at least as to MOS you can get it supported with a WarpOS version which still would be a "AmigaOS 3.x version" so covered by a licence for AmigaOS.

    I think both OS4 and MOS don't have much more option than the other (MOS the better Browser and thanks to Mac machines better availability, OS4 the better 3D Solution) but in the end it is a personal decision which you like more.

    Both markets - at least as to commercial game porting - cannot pay a licence on their own (68k MIGHT but not sure, it is better that with OS4 and WarpOS versions you can get the game to WarpOS machines, OS4 machines and MOS machines as well, OS4/WOS versions basically "riding" on top of 68k - I was not aware of this till recently myselves - I always thought OS4 would be the biggest ^^).

    Licencing for MOS-only is not financially viable (at least not anymore, probably was in the past) and also it would mean me developing for a system which I do not even own (my fav "Amiga-kind" is OS4, but as you will have seen recently I also support other platforms which can be covered with "AmigaOS licence").

    My current plan is still for future games to support 68k/OS4/WOS in parallel. And I have some Betatesters who have MOS too, so they can test the WOS-Versions on MOS (one of them several different MOS-systems).

    If you want to continue to discuss this I suggest not in this thread but open a separate thread on this forum.
    »07.12.24 - 14:30
    vox # 55
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 597 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade

    I believe it still on topic, just expanded to few ports you might be working on.
    What happened to Worms and Sin licenses?

    Surely, OS3 market is biggest. Not that there are so many classics with 040,060 and RTG,
    but due to emulation and FPGA.
    Thus, Hype now try to survive on that route, and I am looking for that route.

    Also, OS3 software done with care should work well on OS4,MOS and even AROS.

    Howler, I doubt OS4 market is bigger then MOS one.
    Plus MOS lacks new games, beside FLOSS ports, so there is "hunger factor"ž

    If you had skills and time to do one optimized MOS port selling it would prove
    MOS is a bit bigger market then OS4, due to wider hardware base and lower software costs (MOS license is almost permanent in updates and needs no paid drivers, Enhancers and rest of milking junk).

    Maybe you could ask Daytona, he did MOS and OS4 ports.

    But I am glad you do WOS ports for OS3 users that have PPC and have been left behind
    by both OS4 and MOS in newer incarnations, and have extra power, some even RTG.

    Its up to you to make profitable model of your own, but OS4 part will sell way less.
    WOS (incl MOS) ones have potential to beat it. I like you give it for free with OS3 versions,
    but if you one day decide to sell it separately, it can be proven WOS MOS market is bigger then OS4.

    OS4 userbase is declining, due to OS being basically dead and dodo, plus constant
    HW unrepair ability, no sw bug fixes, and extreme HW prices and low availability.

    End of Blue Red War are machines that can dual boot, currently only SAM460 and x5000.
    Since MOS does not have newer hardware, if I was Trevor DickInSon I would put an effort
    to have x1000 and A1222 MOS supported too, that could a bit boost sales.
    But A600GS might beat it all - its cheap, fast in emulation and ARM optimizations are coming.

    So real Amiga future might be ARM, and I hope beside System XX, AROS and MOS could follow.
    OS4 is by design and licensing tied to PPC and that is its death sentence - not using affordable existing PPC HW and making all wrong choices with new.
    A bit better G4 board then Terron, single core, fully driver supporter is all OS4 needed, even MOS too.
    Highly clocked G5 single core at best with 2.5 GB RAM and Radeon x800 or x1000.
    Also why there is no promised Enhancer OS3 and Octamed, since they do exists on A600GS?
    That could strengthen AEON (and make them pay due OS 4.2 licenses to x1000 users, since Hype wont=

    [ Edited by vox 07.12.2024 - 17:49 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
    Lame PC with AmiKit XE, Linux, AROS and sadly Win11
    Telegram MOS group: https://t.me/+zCLnwCvwhs4wMTI0
    Steam https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198164221485/
  • »07.12.24 - 16:51
    Profile
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Posts: 31 from 2024/7/11
    You raised several questions here, and I try to answer them one by one. Note some of this might be fact, some of this my personal opinion (BTW for a reasonable discussion I suggest you write out "Hyperion"). Hyperion is BTW not my only partner as to game ports (it is just my non-Hyperion project is not yet released).

    Worms and Sin: Sin is in a stable Beta for OS4 (and WarpOS) and a early Alpha for 68k (I have some "compiler trouble" though I downloaded a new version of the gcc for 68k today and will try if this helps to get rid of the problems - the problems were the "mathlib-problem" kind of thing). My problem up to now was that finishing the port should really have both PPC (no matter if OS4 or WarpOS kind) and 68k versions. But it seems my 68k compiler used was sort of outdated, I *hope* updating fixes this problem (the texture messup problem only appeared with Sin, no other game had the problem - well, Gorky 17 had it in the 040 version, while 060/080 version were fine, but for Sin all 68k versions were affected).

    Worms - I cannot comment on it right now, but something might happen there. Not sure if in a reasonable timeframe.

    As to OS4 market bigger than MOS market this is not alone my opinion. But again - big problem here is MOS version would not be covered by a licence for AmigaOS.

    As to the left-behind WOS-users - I was surprised myselves how well Gorky17 runs on Apocalypse G4 450 MHz (And on Sonnet G3 800 MHz too). Only thing I had to "sacrifice" was the Workbench Window mode for the WOS version (thinking of it, maybe the option should be re-enabled because of MOS, after all you don't have WOS-style contextswitches on MOS - I will keep this in mind for future ports).

    The discussion which is more dead, OS4 or MOS is kind of moot. Both cannot finance a licence alone, they need 68k market on top to make it worthwhile. But all people I interviewed on this said "MOS more dead" (and this complies with what I hear from people I know personally, mostly the MOS-machine is collecting some dust and the OS4-machine is actively used. But again - besides the point and also as we are here on the MOS-forum I guess here are the people who use MOS actively ;-) Again - which is more dead is a moot point. Both cannot pay for a game licence alone. And with AmigaOS-licence I can "catch" OS4, PiStorm/Vampire/real-68k, WarpOS, MOS-with-WOS-Emu. Added to this I like OS4 of course ^^ (and I say this even on a MOS-forum), so I would go for that one if I have to choose. But I also chose to go sure my games will run on the WOS-Emulation of MOS good.

    For sure I plan to support OS4, 68k and WOS (and WOS-versions will continue to be tested on MOS) in continuation. I have a large group of Betatesters with all sorts of systems (OS4-Systems, PiStorm, Vampire, some Macs with MOS, PCI PPC WarpOS Systems and some "real 68k" systems).

    I am not sure if Arm is Amiga future. I think the Amiga market is split up and there is no "the" future. Still I think with the dev tools I have I can support a large share - those where a licence for a game can be acquired for "AmigaOS".

    MagicSN





    [ Edited by MagicSN 07.12.2024 - 21:06 ]
  • »07.12.24 - 21:02
    Profile
  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 615 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    We agree to disagree. Ive been MorphZone and AW.net, A.org, Amigans.net for same amount of time, and that is for about two decades. MOS users have proven more realistic, less insulting, more helpful. In fact, I have been helping OS4 users quite long time, even now does not seem so.

    Surely most of users never transitioned from OS3, and got upgraded by FPGA, Vampire, PiStorm emulation, AmiKit and Aminet alone testifies most is still produced for OS3 and derivates. Hype and AEON current focus on OS3 proves OS4 failure and need to have OS3 sw to survive. I see you as part of that and would prefer if it was not under Hype label, but your own. But that is your choice alone, I anyway salute on effort MOS users can profit from.

    @Andreas

    As usual thanks to add ons. As improved Terron / Peg design I ment something G4,G5 level.
    My G5 in iMac does not heat. Gfx card should be best compatible for both systems and with 3D everywhere,, be it Linux PPC, old Warp3D, new OpenGL implementations. Such machine would be new affordable, supported, documented and even PPC Linux users would support it.|
    OS4 tragedy is in the start - terrible Terron board and no PPC card for Classics, promised.
    Acube hw is expandable and underpowered, x1000 and after overpriced and too overpowerd for current state of software. OS 4.2 was supposed to make it right, but Hype did it wrong.

    Software|

    AROS and MOS have been around more then OS4 and have more affordable hardware. Also in some countries like France and Germany they are more common then oS4.

    Amigamap is not most accurate tool, but it registers 502 MOS, 258 AROS users and just 276 OS 4.1 and
    38 OS 4.0 users.

    d090d09e.jpg
    ------------------------------------------
    iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
    Lame PC with AmiKit XE, Linux, AROS and sadly Win11
    Telegram MOS group: https://t.me/+zCLnwCvwhs4wMTI0
    Steam https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198164221485/
  • »08.12.24 - 09:34
    Profile
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Posts: 31 from 2024/7/11
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    I'm sure that virtually all WarpOS users also use RTG, not only some.



    Agreed.

    Quote:


    Please not A1222. That would open the gates of hell ;-)



    Have to agree here, not sure if you guys really want that and what it would imply. Have already been repeatedly asked for A1222 adaptions by users assuming this would be fairly easy to do (depending on type of program it isn't). Well, actually my next game actually DOES run decently on A1222, but that's due to the type of game/code.

    Quote:


    Which G4 CPU should that be specifically? A new board should use e6500-based CPU at least IMHO.



    Agreed.

    Quote:


    Creating a new board around PPC970FX energy hog would be absolute madness. And why 2.5 GiB? Radeon R400/R500 would be okay for MorphOS, but not for OS4.




    Anything not a RadeonHD or RadeonRX would be inacceptable on AmigaOS 4 market, concretely. It would require that people buy another gfx board additionally.

    It would need to be one of the two (no idea if supported by MOS, but for OS4 there is quite an amount of (3D) software which requires one of the two - myselves I still support MiniGL as well with 3D games though).

    MagicSN
  • »08.12.24 - 10:58
    Profile
    • Caterpillar
      Caterpillar
      Posts: 31 from 2024/7/11
      Quote:

      vox wrote:
      We agree to disagree. Ive been MorphZone and AW.net, A.org, Amigans.net for same amount of time, and that is for about two decades. MOS users have proven more realistic, less insulting, more helpful. In fact, I have been helping OS4 users quite long time, even now does not seem so.



      Yes, agree to disagree is fine for me. And I would not say "proven more realistic, less insulting, more helpful" but BECOMING more realistic, less insuting, more helpful. Was not always like this (at least from my point of view). But now it seems to me both sides have become more helpful etc. But I suggest let's let the past asides. I especially found some MOS developers extremely helpful. And in discussions of developers of both sides for a looooong time there have been no insults etc. It was only end users (of both sides) for many years as far as I noticed it at least.

      Quote:


      Surely most of users never transitioned from OS3, and got upgraded by FPGA, Vampire, PiStorm emulation, AmiKit and Aminet alone testifies most is still produced for OS3 and derivates. Hype and AEON current



      Again, use the full name Hyperion. Else I will no longer react to your posts. I do not like to people who use the talking on a niveau of kindergarden children (or Donald Trump, he does that too, inventing names ^^) who use custom insult-names for other people. You can use that term in threads were I am not involved, but if you want an answer from me don't use it in that specific thread.

      Quote:


      focus on OS3 proves OS4 failure and need to have OS3 sw to survive. I see you as part of that and would prefer if it was not under Hype label, but your own. But that is your choice alone, I anyway salute on effort MOS users can profit from.



      No. You have to see that the people doing OS3 and OS4 are different teams. It is not an "either - or". It is the same BTW on me supporting PiStorm or WOS. I actually have been criticized for this by a Betatester for example.

      Quote:


      My G5 in iMac does not heat. Gfx card should be best compatible for both systems and with 3D



      As I said for OS4 the only valid options for "full support" is RadeonHD or RadeonRX (these days people would want RadeonRX, as why use the weaker card on modern system ?). I think these cards are not supported by MorphOS, if I got it right. Of course could be done by a configurator, that everyone gets the card he wants (but that defeats dual-boot of course). Personally I think not so many people are interested in dual boot.

      Quote:


      everywhere,, be it Linux PPC, old Warp3D, new OpenGL implementations. Such machine would be new affordable, supported, documented and even PPC Linux users would support it.|



      As to OS4 users new Warp3D (Warp3DNova) needs to be supported. Old Warp3D is only for old machines (which do not support HD/RX) or to run (via Novabridge) old, unupdated software.

      Quote:


      OS4 tragedy is in the start - terrible Terron board and no PPC card for Classics, promised.
      Acube hw is expandable and underpowered, x1000 and after overpriced and too overpowerd for current state of software. OS 4.2 was supposed to make it right, but Hype did it wrong.



      Seriously - either stop that silly namecalling and use the full name or I stop my participation in this thread.

      Quote:


      AROS and MOS have been around more then OS4 and have more affordable hardware. Also in some countries like France and Germany they are more common then oS4.



      Resellers tell me differently.

      Quote:


      Amigamap is not most accurate tool, but it registers 502 MOS, 258 AROS users and just 276 OS 4.1 and
      38 OS 4.0 users.



      What is Amigamap ? Never heard of it.

      MagicSN
    • »08.12.24 - 11:12
      Profile
    • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      matt3
      Posts: 703 from 2004/2/10
      @MagicSN

      Wish you well with your coding and efforts and welcome.

      A few items I will comment about MorphOS that I have noticed over the years:
      - Many users are using MorphOS for work or their business daily or frequently and don't post a thing on line about it. They toss developers money and often get requested enhancements.
      - MorphOS is very functional for productivity and it is used as a tool. I haven't played games in a long time. I use it daily for my work and at this point 80% or more is all on MorphOS.
      - MorphOS development has heavily favored productivity with very robust application development in that area, so while I'm still passionate about Amiga and MorphOS to some extent. MorphOS has become a tool to get a job done and enjoyment is found in that regard for me. In particular Iris and PolyOrga have really improved in the last 4 years to do a great many things...

      All that said if you do release ports of games I used to play on this platform, I would be happy to support that effort.

      Good luck!
    • »08.12.24 - 12:11
      Profile
    • Moderator
      Kronos
      Posts: 2334 from 2003/2/24
      Quote:

      Andreas_Wolf wrote:

      Which G4 CPU should that be specifically? A new board should use e6500-based CPU at least IMHO.



      These were "meh" when they were new in 2012 and only got a minimal update in 2013 so I doubt they would even compare well in raw performance against an G5.

      If that PPC laptop project had been finished 5(++) years ago I might have seen a point in new PPC HW but not for desktop.

      As it stands for most of us it would a downgrade vs a PCIe G5 (and even an AGP one) with the only plausible benefit some power savings.
    • »08.12.24 - 12:51
      Profile
    • vox
    • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      vox
      Posts: 615 from 2003/11/24
      From: Belgrade
      Dont be so childish and sensitive, remember that I am financially and morally hurt ex OS4 user,
      so sarcasm can be expected. And irony.

      I use Hype to describe too much promises to little done. Even full Hyperion name, as well as Amiga EON is a bit mythical, almost like product availability. I can mention eternal development of x1000 net driver that on OS 4.1 exists but times out in endless loop, CFE that is never fixed and lost, SMP promised since 2013, Timberwolf bounty collected and update to FF16 promised, Worms and Sin announced decades ago, taking AEON money with no question, not paying OS 3.2 developers but profiting from it and surely OS 4.2 promises where Gallium OpenGL should support more cards and have better OpenGL then any of current Hanses work ...

      I agree that iMac G5 was simple, cheap and great investement. ALmost fully supported out of box including Wi Fi and 3D, having mailer and browser almost at Linux level plus there are many more modern MOS tools.

      Resellers simply have very little to offer for MOS sadly - they dont sell used Macs, MOS licenses for SAMs or X5000. Once upon a time when MOS had support of company all Efikas and Pegs were sold faster then any Terron, SAM or XXX Axxx.

      Having decent mailer not obsolete for use like my all time favorite YAM, better browser then my OS3 fav Vaporware V3, OWB or Odyssey and bundling it with OS is biggest step forward.

      Userbase is pleasing and helpful, MOS is open even to factual criticism, user feedback and bugfixes (unlike experience of Hyperion support forum).

      It would be nice if Hans would help RadeonHD drivers for MOS which are currently 2D only. Without his work RadeonHD and RX drivers for OS4 would stay the same, as was state of affairs in 2013. I dont regret supporting him, except V5 drivers dont work on X1000 on Hyperion lost CFE fault (So much of professionalism again) and as cherry on the top, paying additionally for old school Warp3D driver.

      I have bought new card to best one bought with x1000, which ended unsupported (also a crime for itself since card has 3D abilities) and I can say 3D is best so far. However, all older Radeon users like SAM owners are left behind and higher end cards simply work slower in 3D then in Linux will full 3D enabled or Windows with real Radeon drivers. So its also half baked implementation and not as good as it sounds.

      AmigaMap is oldest tool to see where your fellow Amiga users are, so its relevant more then resellers.
      https://amigamap.com

      If you need better proof, Aminet sais 38 pages of MOS software
      1858 titles for OS4. Since this includes software that works everywhere,
      we can compare OS4 depot 4404 packages vs MorphOS

      Aminet shows nearly same no of packages, that include working on both systems.

      But its also about quality. Example is Morpheus https://www.morphos-storage.net/?id=1552518
      That enables me to read and write ODT, practically contiuing my PC Work on MOS.

      I havent seen such tool on OS4.

      Conclusion is, thanks to Daytona, Hyperion, you, kas1e OS4 has decent game porting (altough we now have Doom3) while MOS is capable of everyday work without Linux and is much more efficient then Linux\
      or MacOS X PPC and less buggy, plus supports WarpUp, has better clean m68k WB compatibility
      and Warp3D.

      Also as you know so called MUI5 has never been officially licensed, and is clone of licensed MOS MUI4.
      Bumping number is purely artificial and illegal, and there is no MOS version since its unecessary.
      However, this speaks of OS4 badly in your legal and moral terms.

      Also having different owners of base OS4 components is another legal mess. I would not be surprised if there were not any source code kept in good shape, like it happened with OS 3.5 and OS 3.9

      Only thing that kill MOS it is no official name.
      Once again Amiga Inc made a veerry bad choice with Hyperion that kept draging since early OS 4 days and story is getting so boring, long, money demanding for very little gain its definition of how not
      to modernize and improve OS.
      ------------------------------------------
      iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
      Lame PC with AmiKit XE, Linux, AROS and sadly Win11
      Telegram MOS group: https://t.me/+zCLnwCvwhs4wMTI0
      Steam https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198164221485/
    • »08.12.24 - 13:02
      Profile
    • Yokemate of Keyboards
      Yokemate of Keyboards
      Andreas_Wolf
      Posts: 12199 from 2003/5/22
      From: Germany
      > My G5 in iMac does not heat.

      I meant power consumption in general, not necessarily heat. Performance per Watt of PPC970 has never been good, even less so today.

      > Gfx card should be best compatible for both systems
      > and with 3D everywhere,, be it Linux PPC, old Warp3D,
      > new OpenGL implementations.

      There is no graphics card compatible in old and new 3D standards with MorphOS, OS4 and Linux, let alone "best compatible".

      > x1000 and after […] too overpowerd for current state of software.

      I wouldn't call them overpowered just because they are multicore. There'll be no new single-core desktop CPU, so using one core and leaving the others unused (or for asymmetric multiprocessing) is the best that can be done with the current OS base.
    • »08.12.24 - 15:33
      Profile
    • Yokemate of Keyboards
      Yokemate of Keyboards
      Andreas_Wolf
      Posts: 12199 from 2003/5/22
      From: Germany
      > RadeonHD or RadeonRX […]. […] no idea if supported by MOS

      No, they aren't, at least in the sense A-Eon is using the 'RadeonHD' term. MorphOS release-level 3D support goes up to Radeon R500, while newer (public) beta-level support adds R800/R900 (TeraScale 2, except RV970 which is unsupported TeraScale 3), but not R600/R700 (TeraScale 1). "RadeonHD" in A-Eon terms is R1000 (GCN1).
    • »08.12.24 - 15:53
      Profile
    • esc
    • Order of the Butterfly
      Order of the Butterfly
      esc
      Posts: 160 from 2013/5/28
      Playing a bit of catch-up here, but...from where I sit, it looks like MagicSN likes porting games to OS4, and it looks like Vox is giving grief because Vox does not like Hyperion.

      Is that literally the point of this whole thread? Or do I have it wrong?

      @MagicSN - I am super appreciative of anyone who ports anything for any of our Amiga or Amiga-adjacent platforms. Thank you for your efforts and please don't get discouraged by people who disagree with how or what you do. Thanks.
    • »08.12.24 - 20:33
      Profile
    • Yokemate of Keyboards
      Yokemate of Keyboards
      Andreas_Wolf
      Posts: 12199 from 2003/5/22
      From: Germany
      >> A new board should use e6500-based CPU at least

      > These were "meh" when they were new in 2012 and
      > only got a minimal update in 2013 so I doubt they would
      > even compare well in raw performance against an G5.

      The update was in 2016 (#911) after NXP took over, but yes, I didn't mean to refer to raw performance alone but more to performance per Watt (while at the same time not being too slow overally, of course). At home, I would prefer an e6500-based system over a PPC970MP-based system any time (with comparable built quality, firmware support etc.).

      > for most of us it would a downgrade vs a PCIe G5 (and even an
      > AGP one) with the only plausible benefit some power savings.

      Indeed, the power saving argument has become stronger with me over the years :-) One could as well say that switching from PPC970MP to e6500 would be an upgrade in everything (versions of PCIe, RAM, SATA…) but raw performance :-)
    • »08.12.24 - 21:13
      Profile
    • Yokemate of Keyboards
      Yokemate of Keyboards
      Andreas_Wolf
      Posts: 12199 from 2003/5/22
      From: Germany
      > full Hyperion name, as well as Amiga EON is a bit mythical

      It's A-EON officially, not "Amiga EON".

      > CFE that is […] lost

      It's not (#129, #132), and you know it.

      > Timberwolf […] update to FF16 promised

      No, neither FF16 nor promised (#10).

      > browser almost at Linux level

      …or even better than on big-endian, 32-bit Power(PC) Linux :-)

      > when MOS had support of company all Efikas and Pegs
      > were sold faster then any Terron, SAM or XXX Axxx.

      Directron had Efikas in stock until 2022 (#41).

      > better browser then […] OWB or Odyssey and
      > bundling it with OS is biggest step forward.

      OWB/Odyssey were also bundled with MorphOS.

      > It would be nice if Hans would help RadeonHD drivers
      > for MOS which are currently 2D only.

      TinyGL ninth public beta added support for Radeon R800/R900 (TeraScale 2, except RV970 which is unsupported TeraScale 3) in all HD5000, most HD6000 and some HD7000, HD8000 and R5 200 cards. OS4 RadeonHD 3D support starts right above highest MorphOS-supported GPU, namely at R1000 (GCN1).

      > Without his work RadeonHD and RX drivers for OS4 would stay the same

      I'd rather say they wouldn't even exist ;-)

      > V5 drivers dont work on X1000

      They work well as long as a GCN1-based card is used.

      > Hyperion lost CFE

      They didn't. See above.

      > AmigaMap is oldest tool to see where your fellow Amiga users are

      …or where they *were* when they added themselves. At least I doubt that most ex-users had themselves removed from the list/map.

      > If you need better proof, Aminet sais 38 pages of MOS software
      > 1858 titles for OS4. Since this includes software that works everywhere,
      > we can compare OS4 depot 4404 packages vs MorphOS
      > Aminet shows nearly same no of packages, that include working on both systems.

      Whatever this should prove, I don't get it.

      > its also about quality.
      > Example is Morpheus https://www.morphos-storage.net/?id=1552518
      > That enables me […] contiuing my PC Work on MOS.

      Reports about Morpheus don't read so favourably to me:
      https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=53&topic_id=13181&start=27 (#28, #45, #59, #62, #63, #66).

      > MOS […] supports WarpUp […] and Warp3D.

      …as does OS4.

      > so called MUI5 […] is clone of licensed MOS MUI4.

      No, it's a clone (reimplementation) of MUI5 in MorphOS 3.8 and later.

      > Bumping number is purely artificial and illegal

      No, version number was bumped because of (alleged) API compatibility and feature parity with MorphOS MUI5.

      > there is no MOS version since its unecessary.

      No, there's no MorphOS version of it because MorphOS already has original MUI5.

      > I would not be surprised if there were not any source code kept in good shape

      They use standard version control system.

      > like it happened with OS 3.5 and OS 3.9

      Care to elaborate?
    • »08.12.24 - 23:18
      Profile
    • Moderator
      Kronos
      Posts: 2334 from 2003/2/24
      Quote:

      Andreas_Wolf wrote:


      The update was in 2016 (#911) after NXP took over,


      At a quick glance these seem to be the same old 2013 cores in just a different package.

      As for updating everything else, faster RAM is pointless when you don’t have the compute PCIe will be limited more by the lack of available lanes then version of these lanes. Not that it would matter much in real life.

      Saving power is nice, but spending 1000€ (being optimistic here) to save 20€ does not sound like a good plan. Especially when one considers the effort needed to get that HW working and how it could be utilized to get better results without needing yet another dead end not new piece of HW.
    • »09.12.24 - 04:11
      Profile
    • vox
    • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      vox
      Posts: 615 from 2003/11/24
      From: Belgrade
      Quote:

      Andreas_Wolf wrote:
      > full Hyperion name, as well as Amiga EON is a bit mythical

      It's A-EON officially, not "Amiga EON".


      Its obviously Amiga for EONs

      Quote:

      Andreas_Wolf wrote:
      > CFE that is […] lost

      It's not (#129, #132), and you know it.



      OK SSolie is still setuping up the newer machine, and result is no fixes in CFE

      Quote:

      Andreas_Wolf wrote:
      > Timberwolf […] update to FF16 promised

      No, neither FF16 nor promised (#10).



      Friedens brothers used to have small website with Timberwolf page and ARMA or some game they were doing. It stated they will update the engine. Of course, before they abandoned it.

      Quote:

      Andreas_Wolf wrote:
      > browser almost at Linux level

      …or even better than on big-endian, 32-bit Power(PC) Linux :-)



      While there, why there isnt some 64 bit G5 optimised Linux?

      Quote:


      > better browser then […] OWB or Odyssey and bundling it with OS is biggest step forward.

      OWB/Odyssey were also bundled with MorphOS.



      Surely, at time they were best on Amiga scene and are still on AROS.

      Quote:


      > Without his work RadeonHD and RX drivers for OS4 would stay the same



      I'd rather say they wouldn't even exist ;-)
      Surely, before him best gfx card for OS4 was Radeon 9600.
      Conclusion: We should hijack or hire Hans :DDDD


      > V5 drivers dont work on X1000

      Quote:


      > Hyperion lost CFE

      They didn't. See above.


      Great, result is still the same, no overall fixes to promised levels in manuals,
      no Uboot port, no RX support making x1000 biggest router ever.

      Quote:


      > AmigaMap is oldest tool to see where your fellow Amiga users are

      …or where they *were* when they added themselves. At least I doubt that most ex-users had themselves removed from the list/map.



      Surely, I bet it still sais I have x1000 ;D I ll fix that one bright morning

      Quote:


      Whatever this should prove, I don't get it.



      In short that MOS is older and longer has OS3 native ports, there was momentum of about few
      years around x1000 release, OS4 development gained tracktion, but soon died down to few people.

      Quote:


      Reports about Morpheus don't read so favourably to me:
      https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=53&topic_id=13181&start=27 (#28, #45, #59, #62, #63, #66).



      As oposed to using hard to get Amiga Writter on OS3 and OS4.
      Surely MOS still needs that Final Writter updated.

      Quote:


      > MOS […] supports WarpUp […] and Warp3D.
      …as does OS4.



      When you put it to the test even OS3 RTG apps dont work well, WarpOS PowerUP rarely,
      and Warp3D only up to Radeon 9600. I dont know what was so much altered after direct OS 3.1 port
      but Petunia is fast, seems other parts of OS cause incompatibility.

      > so called MUI5 […] is clone of licensed MOS MUI4.

      Quote:


      No, it's a clone (reimplementation) of MorphOS 3.8 and later MUI5.

      > Bumping number is purely artificial and illegal

      No, version number was bumped because of (alleged) API compatibility and feature parity with MorphOS MUI5.

      > there is no MOS version since its unecessary.

      No, there's no MorphOS version of it because MorphOS already has original MUI5.



      Called MUI4, but its very unclear how MUI5 came to be.

      Quote:


      > like it happened with OS 3.5 and OS 3.9

      Care to elaborate?


      Amiga Inc and Hype had to go back to OS 3.1 because OS 3.9 sources
      were either lost or required buy out from H&P. They have never reappeared
      and both OS4 and OS 3.1.4 and OS 3.2 started from OS 3.1, not fully leveling up to OS 3.9
      in some minor aspects up to this day.

      @all

      Its not that I dont care about coders that do games, I am tired of OS4 zealotism not grounded in reality. Original Zealots at least were freedom fighters against Roman Empire, not for it.
      ------------------------------------------
      iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
      Lame PC with AmiKit XE, Linux, AROS and sadly Win11
      Telegram MOS group: https://t.me/+zCLnwCvwhs4wMTI0
      Steam https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198164221485/
    • »09.12.24 - 05:07
      Profile
    • Yokemate of Keyboards
      Yokemate of Keyboards
      Andreas_Wolf
      Posts: 12199 from 2003/5/22
      From: Germany
      >>> they [...] got a minimal update in 2013

      >> The update was in 2016 (#911) after NXP took over

      > these seem to be the same old 2013 cores in just a different package.

      Yes, these are with the original e6500 cores. I've seen no technical details as to what NXP did specifically to lower power and increase memory performance of those SoCs at the same time.
      I see now that the 2013 update you referred to may be the e6501 core (#493) to be used in the QorIQ Qonverge B3421 (#515). However, I can find no evidence that this SoC actually hit the market. Thus, I conclude that there's no e6501 out in the wild either.

      > PCIe will be limited more by the lack of available lanes
      > then version of these lanes.

      PCIe throughput quadrupled from v1 to v3, so with v3 you only need a quarter of the lanes for the same total throughput.

      > spending 1000€ (being optimistic here) to save 20€
      > does not sound like a good plan.

      20€ per month is 4 years until redemption ;-)
    • »09.12.24 - 10:31
      Profile
    • vox
    • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      vox
      Posts: 615 from 2003/11/24
      From: Belgrade
      Quote:

      Andreas_Wolf wrote:
      I wouldn't call them overpowered just because they are multicore. There'll be no new single-core desktop CPU, so using one core and leaving the others unused (or for asymmetric multiprococessing) is the best that can be done with the current OS base.


      I understand no single cores are produced anymore. Even SAM class CPU has dual core version.
      Points are
      - All boards except buggy Terrons and SAM440 were not fully supported by OS4
      - x1000 was worse case scenario including horrid and buggy CFE and OS 4.2 license
      - OS 4.1 FE, Enhancer, hanses Driver were all partial solutions that mended some problems
      but forced gfx card change (instead of supporting what users had, which is also decent 3D)
      - Each AmiWest kept repeating similar promises, with rare real world solutions
      - Only SAM460 and x1000 (and Peg2) got dual boot support to boost exclusivity and sales,
      even all boards can have it, with maybe some driver sharing not to force users to have two gfx cards for this
      - Killing Acubes Moana port for MacMini is missed opportunity to spread OS4 licensing
      and have widely avail hardware
      - Only really supported cards on both systems with Warp3D are Radeons 9200-9600 and maybe 3dfx

      Its really such approach plus rarely avail and insanely expensive hardware that kills OS4,
      not MOS or AROS (that just have better approach)

      My court claim is simple users answer to such nonsense, nothing more or less.

      More care for users and single board higher run cheaper end price approach, similar to Terron
      but non buggy could save the day way better,

      If I can say something good of PA Semi, it is power efficiency, nice mem and FPU score
      but horrid CPU performance per Mhz, closer to G3. It was obviously ment for laptops, not desktops.

      Also, nice FPGA that could fit ECS AGA chipset emulation instead of Xorro Xena could significantly
      increase backward compatibility.




      [ Edited by vox 09.12.2024 - 12:00 ]
      ------------------------------------------
      iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
      Lame PC with AmiKit XE, Linux, AROS and sadly Win11
      Telegram MOS group: https://t.me/+zCLnwCvwhs4wMTI0
      Steam https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198164221485/
    • »09.12.24 - 10:58
      Profile
    • Moderator
      Kronos
      Posts: 2334 from 2003/2/24
      Quote:

      Andreas_Wolf wrote:


      PCIe throughput quadrupled from v1 to v3, so with v3 you only need a quarter of the lanes for the same total throughput.




      Sure if you can afford to route 4 of the limited PCIe lanes to the GPU and if that GPU is PCIe3 or better you will be right back where you started.

      As for efficiency, affordability and availability choosing a random non PPC board and hardcoding a PPC EMU to it would a less bad idea.
    • »09.12.24 - 11:58
      Profile
    • Yokemate of Keyboards
      Yokemate of Keyboards
      Andreas_Wolf
      Posts: 12199 from 2003/5/22
      From: Germany
      >>> full Hyperion name, as well as Amiga EON is a bit mythical

      >> It's A-EON officially, not "Amiga EON".

      > Its obviously Amiga for EONs

      No matter what "A-EON" stands for, using "Hype" for correct "Hyperion" is completely different from using correct "A-EON" for "Amiga EON". That's basic logic.

      > OK SSolie is still setuping up the newer machine

      No, it was said he tried to set up an *older* system, because newer compilers cannot compile old CFE source code.

      >>> Timberwolf […] update to FF16 promised

      >> No, neither FF16 nor promised (#10).

      > Friedens brothers used to have small website with Timberwolf page [...].
      > It stated they will update the engine.

      Maybe there's a cultural difference regarding what constitutes a promise? The statement was:

      "Currently, the code is based on Firefox 4.0.1, but we’re working on bringing it up to the latest build (18.0.1 at the time of writing, although 19.x is more likely)."

      That's not a promise to my mind, but merely a description of what they were attempting to do. They failed at this attempt, but this doesn't mean they broke any promise.

      > why there isnt some 64 bit G5 optimised Linux?

      There are several. I gave you a list of 7 distributions there:
      https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13894&forum=11&start=10 (#11)

      > before him best gfx card for OS4 was Radeon 9600.

      OS4 never 3D-supported Radeon R300 GPU series. Best in 3D was the 9000 Pro of R200 GPU series as even the 8500/9100 (fastest of R200 series) caused artifacts on the screen.

      > no RX support making x1000 biggest router ever.

      Using a GCN1-based card instead of a GCN4-based one makes it a router? Mind you, MorphOS doesn't even have GCN1 support.

      >> Whatever this should prove, I don't get it.

      > that MOS is older and longer has OS3 native ports, there was
      > momentum of about few years around x1000 release, OS4 development
      > gained tracktion, but soon died down to few people.

      Fair enough, but I was referring to your Aminet and OS4Depot number mumbo jumbo.

      >>> MOS […] supports WarpUp […] and Warp3D.

      >> …as does OS4.

      > OS3 RTG apps dont work well, WarpOS PowerUP rarely

      PowerUP probably won't work, but originally there was WarpOSEmu which only works on G2/G3/G4 and Sam440, and meanwhile there's ReWarp with ReWarp3DPPC which is said to work quite well on all OS4 hardware.

      > and Warp3D only up to Radeon 9600.

      There was Warp3D_SI for GCN1-based cards and MiniGL4GL4ES for GCN4-based cards, and meanwhile there's NovaBridge for both GCN1 and GCN4. (And again, no Warp3D for Radeon 9600 ever, see above.)

      >> MorphOS already has original MUI5.

      > Called MUI4

      No, as I already told you 2 years ago, it's been called MUI5 since MorphOS 3.8 in 2015:

      https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11372&start=335 (#336, #337)

      > its very unclear how MUI5 came to be.

      The MorphOS/MUI developers decided in 2015 to bump the MUI version along bug fixes and/or feature improvements for MorphOS 3.8. Simple.

      > Amiga Inc and Hype had to go back to OS 3.1 because OS 3.9
      > sources were either lost or required buy out from H&P.

      This didn't mean much practically, as all that was H&P's in 3.5/3.9 was some GUIs (Prefs...). Everything else was either already in 3.1, was owned by then-OS4 individual developers anyway or could be re-licensed from the respective developers who often released their components also on Aminet.

      > both OS4 and OS 3.1.4 and OS 3.2 started from OS 3.1, not fully
      > leveling up to OS 3.9 in some minor aspects up to this day.

      You say yourself that it's only minor, but what's really missing functionally in OS4 or OS3.2 from OS3.9? And of course, 3.2 didn't start from 3.1 but from 3.1.4 ;-)
    • »09.12.24 - 12:22
      Profile
    • Yokemate of Keyboards
      Yokemate of Keyboards
      Andreas_Wolf
      Posts: 12199 from 2003/5/22
      From: Germany
      > All boards except buggy Terrons and SAM440 were not fully supported by OS4

      What's missing from Sam460 support?

      > Only SAM460 and x1000 (and Peg2) got dual boot support

      X1000? You mean X5000? And who is to blame for MorphOS Team not supporting the other boards/systems?

      > with maybe some driver sharing not to force users
      > to have two gfx cards for this

      It's not as easy as "driver sharing". MorphOS would have to adopt the whole OS4 2D/3D graphics subsystem for this. See also bigfoot's comment.

      > Only really supported cards on both systems with Warp3D
      > are Radeons 9200-9600 and maybe 3dfx

      With original Warp3D on OS4, Radeon supported was only from 7000 to 9250 (but not 8500/9100), with 9000 Pro being the fastest.

      > PA Semi [...] was obviously ment for laptops, not desktops.

      Indeed, the PA6T was originally conceived to be offered to Apple for use in a "G5" PowerBook. Apple's switch to Intel was the reason for development direction adjustment (especially regarding the on-chip peripherals) towards embedded applications.
    • »09.12.24 - 12:55
      Profile
    • vox
    • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
      vox
      Posts: 615 from 2003/11/24
      From: Belgrade
      Quote:

      esc wrote:
      Playing a bit of catch-up here, but...from where I sit, it looks like MagicSN likes porting games to OS4, and it looks like Vox is giving grief because Vox does not like Hyperion.

      Is that literally the point of this whole thread? Or do I have it wrong?.


      It started like that, but is oversimplification. MSN basically claims OS4 is more viable market then MOS


      >> It's A-EON officially, not "Amiga EON".

      > Its obviously Amiga for EONs

      No matter what "A-EON" stands for, using "Hype" for correct "Hyperion" is completely different from using correct "A-EON" for "Amiga EON". That's basic logic.

      VOX>Both are irony and sarcasm


      No, it was said he tried to set up an *older* system, because newer compilers cannot compile old CFE source code.

      VOX> Anyhow no results.

      >>> Timberwolf […] update to FF16 promised


      "Currently, the code is based on Firefox 4.0.1, but we’re working on bringing it up to the latest build (18.0.1 at the time of writing, although 19.x is more likely)."

      That's not a promise to my mind, but merely a description of what they were attempting to do. They failed at this attempt, but this doesn't mean they broke any promise.

      VOX> For first and major and only FF implementation it looked like giant leap forward.
      Since it remained FF4 and nothing better was source coded, lets call it effective lie and settle.

      > why there isnt some 64 bit G5 optimised Linux?

      There are several. I gave you a list of 7 distributions there:
      https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13894&forum=11&start=10 (#11)

      VOX>Great thanks, all G5 users should use em

      OS4 never 3D-supported Radeon R300 GPU series. Best in 3D was the 9000 Pro of R200 GPU series as even the 8500/9100 (fastest of R200 series) caused artifacts on the screen.

      VOX>Which just shows how sad was state of gfx before Hans.
      VOX>In my case, supplied OS 4.1u5 x1000 could not boot x1000 since it even did not have 2D driver.

      > no RX support making x1000 biggest router ever.

      Using a GCN1-based card instead of a GCN4-based one makes it a router? Mind you, MorphOS doesn't even have GCN1 support.

      VOX>Both are irony and sarcasmCFE outside x1000 is only used to set up routers,


      > that MOS is older and longer has OS3 native ports, there was
      > momentum of about few years around x1000 release, OS4 development
      > gained tracktion, but soon died down to few people.

      VOX> Fair enough, but I was referring to your Aminet and OS4Depot number mumbo jumbo.

      To be honest, I expected there is way more MOS sw, but have been proven its about same.

      >>> MOS […] supports WarpUp […] and Warp3D.

      >> …as does OS4.

      VOX>> OS3 RTG apps dont work well, WarpOS PowerUP rarely

      PowerUP probably won't work, but originally there was WarpOSEmu which only works on G2/G3/G4 and Sam440, and meanwhile there's ReWarp with ReWarp3DPPC which is said to work quite well on all OS4 hardware.

      VOX> With software renders, CIA emulations, add on of MUI, AHI and many other tricks situation can a bit VOX>improve, but its still awful. Rarely OS3 clean WB apps work. Biggest step forward was JIT UAE OS4 VOX> that had x1000 optimised binary. But yet even with it SAM460 could do ECS games and x1000 and x5000 VOX>AGA including productivity sw. With RunInUAE combined, it looked for a moment like advanced Amiga.

      > and Warp3D only up to Radeon 9600.

      (And again, no Warp3D for Radeon 9600 ever, see above.

      VOX> EVen sadder then I throught, Acube was right putting 9000,9100,9200 level card onboard.

      >> MorphOS already has original MUI5.

      > Called MUI4

      VOX> Thats my point too. Very moot bussiness having nonexisting MUI5.


      > its very unclear how MUI5 came to be.

      The MorphOS/MUI developers decided in 2015 to bump the MUI version along bug fixes and/or feature improvements for MorphOS 3.8. Simple.

      VOX> I mean OS4 version, and derived OS3 version, even its good. Since MUI 3.8 registration was VOX>impossible, I was happy to finally customize MUI apps, since I do love them, and MagicWB to VOX>Reaction. Only good newer Reaction App I have seen was EMOTION


      This didn't mean much practically, as all that was H&P's in 3.5/3.9 was some GUIs (Prefs...). Everything else was either already in 3.1, was owned by then-OS4 individual developers anyway or could be re-licensed from the respective developers who often released their components also on Aminet.

      VOX> From user point it includes ClassAct, MUI, WarpOS, AHI etc. These were external extras, but so they were VOX>when supplied as extras with OS 4.0/OS 4.1FE and a necessity for modern AMiga user.

      You say yourself that it's only minor, but what's really missing functionally in OS4 or OS3.2 from >OS3.9? And of course, 3.2 didn't start from 3.1 but from 3.1.4 ;-)


      VOX>Starting with video player (no matter how bad, functional), browser, improved CD player
      VOX>As user I do count everything AsyncWB, good IP stack, more datatypes etc. When you include 2 VOX>officialand some unofficial Boing Bags its quite a lot
      VOX>https://amigan.1emu.net/releases/BoingBags3&4.readme

      VOX>Surely large drive support, file systems and critical under hood improvements and some OS 4 VOX>VOX>backporting is significant milestone, I dont underestimate effort put to it. I just say as end user I understand why some users stil stick to OS 3.9 patched,

      VOX>Plus OS 3.2 existed according to WB Nostalgia :DDDD
      https://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_b32_40.html

      > All boards except buggy Terrons and SAM440 were not fully supported by OS4

      What's missing from Sam460 support?

      VOX> Small FPGA support and there is some gfx card limit linked to Uboot

      > Only SAM460 and x5000 (and Peg2) got dual boot support

      X1000? You mean X5000? And who is to blame for MorphOS Team not supporting the other boards/systems?

      VOX> My bad x5000, I wish it was x1000. I mean this as Trevor presenting as person that supports all systems, I dont blade MOS team.

      > with maybe some driver sharing not to force users
      > to have two gfx cards for this

      VOX>It's not as easy as "driver sharing". MorphOS would have to adopt the whole OS4 2D/3D graphics VOX>subsystem for this.

      Yes, I ment also needed libs etc. sharing if we are to really end "war of all wars" some unity would be neeed, and sharing. Even VIA, AMD and Intel and OS2 and Windows did it.

      > Only really supported cards on both systems with Warp3D
      > are Radeons 9200-9600 and maybe 3dfx

      With original Warp3D on OS4, Radeon supported was only from 7000 to 9250 (but not 8500/9100), with 9000 Pro being the fastest.

      VOX> Yup its even worse then I troughts, where 9100 is best model, but rarest.

      > PA Semi [...] was obviously ment for laptops, not desktops.

      Indeed, the PA6T was originally conceived to be offered to Apple for use in a "G5" PowerBook. Apple's switch to Intel was the reason for development direction adjustment (especially regarding the on-chip peripherals) towards embedded applications.

      VOX> I believe Apple betrayed PPC alliance because judget investment is too costly, its easier to use VOX> offshelf and profit more plus aquire PA Semi team for iPhone use. Good move.
      VOX> But at least they had decency to put some good m68k emu layers in early MacOSX PPC, universal
      VOX> binaries and PPC emulation in early Intel MacOSX and now x86 emu on ARM.

      [ Edited by vox 09.12.2024 - 18:10 ]
      ------------------------------------------
      iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
      Lame PC with AmiKit XE, Linux, AROS and sadly Win11
      Telegram MOS group: https://t.me/+zCLnwCvwhs4wMTI0
      Steam https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198164221485/
  • »09.12.24 - 16:59
    Profile

    •