Cloanto sues Hyperion
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Stevo
    Posts: 812 from 2004/1/24
    From: #AmigaZeux
    Quote:

    outrun1978 wrote:
    Whilst this was an interesting read it Would be nice to know the source of the witness to these conversations don’t you think?


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  • »06.08.18 - 15:31
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1235 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    @thread

    for update

    #6



    I haven't been to either A-Eonkit corporate site for years. When did Matt from A-Eonkit start openly badmouthing Hyperion?

    Indeed, and in 2011 Amiga Kit funded the development of Classic Kernel for 4.1 to get the product to market. Hyperion told us at the time that it would not have had happened if we did not do this. In return for this we were given an exclusive 10 year contract until 2021 to manufacture, distribute and resell 4.1 Classic. It was quite a shock to us and our customers when 4.1 Classic FE suddenly appeared out of the blue at the end of 2014.

    It is all crashing down. I'm just amazed that dog and pony show lasted until 2018.
  • »06.08.18 - 17:05
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 195 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    @thread

    for update

    #6



    I haven't been to either A-Eonkit corporate site for years. When did Matt from A-Eonkit start openly badmouthing Hyperion?

    Indeed, and in 2011 Amiga Kit funded the development of Classic Kernel for 4.1 to get the product to market. Hyperion told us at the time that it would not have had happened if we did not do this. In return for this we were given an exclusive 10 year contract until 2021 to manufacture, distribute and resell 4.1 Classic. It was quite a shock to us and our customers when 4.1 Classic FE suddenly appeared out of the blue at the end of 2014.

    It is all crashing down. I'm just amazed that dog and pony show lasted until 2018.


    Did you read the .pdf in my link?

    #6
  • »06.08.18 - 17:30
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1235 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    Did you read the .pdf in my link?

    #6




    The Amiga32 meeting report? Yes, it confirms the level of dysfunction all around. But it was mostly the exchange between Cloanto and Hyperion. Matt from A-Eonkit was not there, and Trevor is only referenced a few times. The last time Trevor is mentioned he seems to be speaking on behalf of Hyperion. I don't see anything specific in there why Matt would suddenly openly badmouth Hyperion.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised at all that things have soured. It seemed pretty obvious years back things had soured, but at least publicly Matt would claim things were great.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 06.08.2018 - 13:04 ]
  • »06.08.18 - 18:03
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 195 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    Did you read the .pdf in my link?

    #6




    The Amiga32 meeting report? Yes, it confirms the level of dysfunction all around. But it was mostly the exchange between Cloanto and Hyperion. Matt from A-Eonkit was not there, and Trevor is only referenced a few times. The last time Trevor is mentioned he seems to be speaking on behalf of Hyperion. I don't see anything specific in there why Matt would suddenly openly badmouth Hyperion.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised at all that things have soured. It seemed pretty obvious years back things had soured, but at least publicly Matt would claim things were great.


    Current

    Prior to this he has written about the ethernet driver and other issues, so this is not brand new behavior.

    #6
  • »06.08.18 - 18:14
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 384 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Everyone who has ever done business with Ben has been shafted. Everyone. Even other directors of Hyperion. "Ben never told me that" seems to be a common refrain in Hyperion who has suddenly been approached by an irate victim of company practices. He only shares out blame, never responsibility.

    Remember that time way way back when Hyperion failed to sell enough of Shogo: MAD to recoup development costs? And decided to sue Titan Computer for "not trying hard enough to market and distribute it" to get the money back that way instead? That should have been a warning.

    "AmigaKit, we'll sell you a perpetual license to market and sell OS4.2 for Classic. Oh by the way, last version was the last version, so you'll never get back what you paid for it. Hard luck, but them's the breaks."

    No wonder everyone hates him.
  • »06.08.18 - 18:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2524 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:

    Did you read the .pdf in my link?



    LOL! :lol:

    Your links, PDF's and links to PDF's across various threads in various forums kind of accumulates... ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »06.08.18 - 19:07
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2524 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Everyone who has ever done business with Ben has been shafted. Everyone. Even other directors of Hyperion. "Ben never told me that" seems to be a common refrain in Hyperion who has suddenly been approached by an irate victim of company practices. He only shares out blame, never responsibility.

    Remember that time way way back when Hyperion failed to sell enough of Shogo: MAD to recoup development costs? And decided to sue Titan Computer for "not trying hard enough to market and distribute it" to get the money back that way instead? That should have been a warning.

    "AmigaKit, we'll sell you a perpetual license to market and sell OS4.2 for Classic. Oh by the way, last version was the last version, so you'll never get back what you paid for it. Hard luck, but them's the breaks."

    No wonder everyone hates him.


    +1

    It's mind-boggling that there actually still are people who don't see Ben Hermans for what he really is.

    An interesting case for psychology researchers?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »06.08.18 - 19:21
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    number6
    Posts: 195 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:

    Did you read the .pdf in my link?



    LOL! :lol:

    Your links, PDF's and links to PDF's across various threads in various forums kind of accumulates... ;-)


    My apologies. heh.

    btw, anything new in the following since your last translation?

    latest filing

    #6
  • »06.08.18 - 19:26
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 384 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    It's mind-boggling that there actually still are people who don't see Ben Hermans for what he really is.

    An interesting case for psychology researchers?


    The word that's been doing the rounds, apparently from "high up figures" is psychopath. Which was what I labeled him as more than 14 years ago.

    Not the axe-wielding violent Norman Bates stereotype, you understand. There are hard-nosed businessmen in the world who can turn a deal at another's expense by bending the rules a bit and savour the victory, but to cynically exploit people who are actively trying to help you, takes a complete lack of shame, empathy or understanding of right and wrong that strays into the territory of a psychopath.

    People acting in good faith, acting altruistically for the good of the Amiga platform or cooperatively with others within it, have always been Ben's preferred victims and devoured with an avid eagerness. For most people, even if they absolutely had to shaft someone over to survive, would probably feel terrible about and be wracked by their conscience until the end of their days. Not the psychopath. To you, the day they came and razed your village was the biggest day in your life. For them, it was Tuesday.
  • »06.08.18 - 19:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2524 from 2003/2/24
    @number6

    Quote:

    btw, anything new in the following since your last translation?


    No, nothing new IMO. I think it shows that it's business as usual for Hyperion. Meaning: Not Much Business At All!

    Income report continue to show negative income. Hyperion's main asset (the intangible assets) has one more linear write-down of EUR €35 847 to go (read: fiscal year 2018) before it's almost completely zeroed out and only €1 200 remains in that category. It seems like the cost for this asset (whatever it was that was acquired/paid for 3 years earlier for EUR €143 389), as well as other running costs of the company over the years, has been paid for by what is constantly being booked as an annually ever-growing EUR €467 704 (this report, €500K+ next report) short-term "other debts", and not by business operation. Just like before, I interpret this debt as that the owners has paid (and are paying) for everything out of their own pockets, and that Hyperion can't self-sustain as a company, and hasn't been able to do so for many years (ever?). Anyone, feel free to correct me on this! :-)

    Edit:
    Does anyone know the Belgian legislation regarding the "limited liability" of limited liability companies? In Sweden, limited liability companies may continue to operate when assets runs below 50% of the issued share capital, but then the "limited liability" is replaced with *full* liability.

    Edit 2:
    There are IMHO a few things in these reports that make them seem "corrected". The somewhat linear development across years (not talking about linear write-downs), almost the same sums from year to year, same posts merely slightly edited, etc. One plausible explanation would be that there hasn't been any activity to speak of during these years. But I think it has. I think they are juggling with the numbers. They are *years* late in submitting these reports, they are now submitting *anything* in order to escape being banned from business, and they are de-facto writing the reports *themselves* without any oversight from external, professional auditors. External auditors are normally a key component in the "limited liability" concept. This, in combination with the (from elsewhere) reported suspicious/fraudulent business practices. Well, time will tell I suppose...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »06.08.18 - 23:07
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 195 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    @number6

    Quote:

    btw, anything new in the following since your last translation?


    No, nothing new IMO. I think it shows that it's business as usual for Hyperion. Meaning: Not Much Business At All!

    Income report continue to show negative income. Hyperion's main asset (the intangible assets) has one more linear write-down of EUR €35 847 to go (read: fiscal year 2018) before it's almost completely zeroed out and only €1 200 remains in that category. It seems like the cost for this asset (whatever it was that was acquired/paid for 3 years earlier for EUR €143 389), as well as other running costs of the company over the years, has been paid for by what is constantly being booked as an annually ever-growing EUR €467 704 (this report, €500K+ next report) short-term "other debts", and not by business operation. Just like before, I interpret this debt as that the owners has paid (and are paying) for everything out of their own pockets, and that Hyperion can't self-sustain as a company, and hasn't been able to do so for many years (ever?). Anyone, feel free to correct me on this! :-)

    Edit:
    Does anyone know the Belgian legislation regarding the "limited liability" of limited liability companies? In Sweden, limited liability companies may continue to operate when assets runs below 50% of the issued share capital, but then the "limited liability" is replaced with *full* liability.

    Edit 2:
    There are IMHO a few things in these reports that make them seem "corrected". The somewhat linear development across years (not talking about linear write-downs), almost the same sums from year to year, same posts merely slightly edited, etc. One plausible explanation would be that there hasn't been any activity to speak of during these years. But I think it has. I think they are juggling with the numbers. They are *years* late in submitting these reports, they are now submitting *anything* in order to escape being banned from business, and they are de-facto writing the reports *themselves* without any oversight from external, professional auditors. External auditors are normally a key component in the "limited liability" concept. This, in combination with the (from elsewhere) reported suspicious/fraudulent business practices. Well, time will tell I suppose...


    Thank you for putting in the effort on this, and the prior filings.

    #6
  • »07.08.18 - 14:16
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    number6
    Posts: 195 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Jim, there is a difference between the ”Checkmark Branch” 3.1 and the ”Boing Ball Branch” 3.1.

    Some tries desperately to ignore this historical fact, but that doesn’t make it less true.

    Cloanto are the registered owners of Commodore Copyrights, 0.7-3.1. They do what they want with it, as they have been doing with ”Workbench 3.X” since... what, 1.5 decade? Longer? Currently 3.X is largely what AmigaOS 3.9 was.

    What Hyperion has been using (with permission) is Olsens ”3.1” sources, whose main feature is that it largely is a port/rewrite for more modern programming languages and toolchains. Just like AROS and MorphOS it provides 3.1 API using source code and toolchains that *does not* compile the Commodore 3.1 binaries, but is cleaned and more suitable for further development. Main difference is that MorphOS/AROS is clean room while Olsen had access to the Commodore sources while writing/porting it, which ”polluted” it with Commodore IP. The implications of this is yet to be seen.

    But please be aware that there are two ”3.1”; the ”Checkmark Branch” and the ”Boing Ball Bramnch”.

    Cloanto fully owns the first one.

    Olsen and Cloanto owns the second one.

    Amiga Inc owns nothing.


    Update on 3.1.4

    #6
  • »07.08.18 - 15:50
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    number6
    Posts: 195 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > 2015 is not before the infringement started

    It is, according to Cloanto's statements in the complaint. 2016 is when the infringement started according to Cloanto. I'm sure you understand that I take Cloanto's word over yours in this matter.


    I always found what follows to have been potentially troublesome, especially given the lawsuit filing:

    Manomio

    Links within the above posting no longer function, so:
    The announcement by Hyperion

    The public story on Manomio

    Given the dates, I'd say (choose whichever term you like -"disagreements" or "infringements") began much earlier than what the lawsuit publically indicates. We shall see.

    (replaced Hyperion blog link with Hyperion home page link)

    #6


    Just a note since it's sometimes useful to compare information in posts with what is later revealed.
    While a general thumbs down without comment was given by Hyperion to the Amiga32 show notes released by Amiga Documents, there seems to at least be statements that support what I wrote above.

    Source for show notes
    Hyperion response to show notes

    #6
  • »13.08.18 - 15:08
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 384 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Hyperion went into Amiga games, and failed, and managed to sue an Amiga-game distributor in the process. They went into Linux games and MacOS games, and failed. They went into the NG PPC AmigaOS business, and failed, and managed to cause enormous damage to everyone and pretty much sink the whole platform with their regressive approach (trying to flog some Chinese developer board as teh new Aimga!!!) and soured what was left the community with endless attacks on competitors.

    Now retro Amiga seems to be blooming again, I don't want Hyperion's incompetence, hubris or aggressive exploitation anywhere near it. They've destroyed enough already. Sooner they're gone the better.
  • »13.08.18 - 15:45
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4695 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    It's mind-boggling that there actually still are people who don't see Ben Hermans for what he really is.

    An interesting case for psychology researchers?


    The word that's been doing the rounds, apparently from "high up figures" is psychopath. Which was what I labeled him as more than 14 years ago.

    Not the axe-wielding violent Norman Bates stereotype, you understand. There are hard-nosed businessmen in the world who can turn a deal at another's expense by bending the rules a bit and savour the victory, but to cynically exploit people who are actively trying to help you, takes a complete lack of shame, empathy or understanding of right and wrong that strays into the territory of a psychopath...


    The term you are looking for is sociopath, not psychopath.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »13.08.18 - 16:25
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 195 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    It's mind-boggling that there actually still are people who don't see Ben Hermans for what he really is.

    An interesting case for psychology researchers?


    The word that's been doing the rounds, apparently from "high up figures" is psychopath. Which was what I labeled him as more than 14 years ago.

    Not the axe-wielding violent Norman Bates stereotype, you understand. There are hard-nosed businessmen in the world who can turn a deal at another's expense by bending the rules a bit and savour the victory, but to cynically exploit people who are actively trying to help you, takes a complete lack of shame, empathy or understanding of right and wrong that strays into the territory of a psychopath...


    The term you are looking for is sociopath, not psychopath.




    Just to be clear again. My point in posting was to point out a discernable difference between what Hyperion is telling people (supporters perhaps) vs what the show notes are illustrating:

    Quote:

    Hyperion Entertainment is perplexed by the recent litigious attitude of Cloanto

    Source

    vs what those Amiga32 show notes and the Manomio story clearly illustrate as perceived abuse of IP barely after the ink was dry on the Amiga Inc. vs Hyperion VOF settlement.


    #6
  • »13.08.18 - 16:45
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1235 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Now retro Amiga seems to be blooming again, I don't want Hyperion's incompetence, hubris or aggressive exploitation anywhere near it. They've destroyed enough already. Sooner they're gone the better.


    True, the number of Amiga Classic computers equipped with a Vampire board dwarfs any of the AROS/MorphOS/OS4 user bases. I'd bet in the next couple years it will probably dwarf all 3 of them combined.

    I'd love to see a MorphOS 68k release. I have a Vampire 500 now, but going back to OS3.9 after using MorphOS for so long is not appealing.



    [ Edited by redrumloa 13.08.2018 - 11:52 ]
  • »13.08.18 - 16:51
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 384 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    The term you are looking for is sociopath, not psychopath.



    No. A psychopath is a narcissist with superficial charm who has no problem in getting people to believe they are a nice guy, despite their complete lack of empathy and constant self-aggrandisement. A sociopath just pulls his dick out in the middle of company and starts going at it when they feel like it, and just doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Guess which one of those two would be best for being a lawyer.
  • »13.08.18 - 17:08
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4695 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    The term you are looking for is sociopath, not psychopath.



    No. A psychopath is a narcissist with superficial charm who has no problem in getting people to believe they are a nice guy, despite their complete lack of empathy and constant self-aggrandisement. A sociopath just pulls his dick out in the middle of company and starts going at it when they feel like it, and just doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Guess which one of those two would be best for being a lawyer.


    No, a psychopath is someone who is divorced from common reality.
    And a sociopath would not do what you've describe, rather he'd do that on your daughters face behind your back.
    The description you apply to psychopath works quite well for sociopath.

    Or you can simplify it to being two faced.

    [ Edited by Jim 13.08.2018 - 15:01 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »13.08.18 - 18:32
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    KennyR
    Posts: 384 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    No, a psychopath is someone who is divorced from common reality.


    No, that's a psychotic.
  • »13.08.18 - 19:14
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1084 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Now retro Amiga seems to be blooming again, I don't want Hyperion's incompetence, hubris or aggressive exploitation anywhere near it. They've destroyed enough already. Sooner they're gone the better.

    True, the number of Amiga Classic computers equipped with a Vampire board dwarfs any of the AROS/MorphOS/OS4 user bases. I'd bet in the next couple years it will probably dwarf all 3 of them combined.

    Actually, some people have claimed that AROS had accumulated huge download numbers over the years. If they are right, it does show that a theoretically big install base may have limited value afterall. Quantity vs. quality. One-time testers vs. frequent users who are heavily invested and engaged. And so on.

    Speaking of which, if a sizable amount of Vampire owners would be seriously interested in more than retro gaming, one would assume they would invest time and funds in getting AROS 68k improved but that does not seem to be happening.

    Quote:

    I'd love to see a MorphOS 68k release.

    Unless a Vampire fan wins the lottery and pays (market rates) for the development, that seems highly unlikely to happen. If someone ever succeeds at porting Odyssey to the hardware, you will understand why.

    Quote:

    I have a Vampire 500 now, but going back to OS3.9 after using MorphOS for so long is not appealing.

    I feel the same way. MorphOS on PowerPC Macs is about as retro as I am willing to go with regard to common desktop computing uses.
  • »13.08.18 - 19:29
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4695 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    No, a psychopath is someone who is divorced from common reality.


    No, that's a psychotic.


    Right, because psychopaths are psychotic.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »13.08.18 - 20:02
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