Cloanto sues Hyperion
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Let me quote from the actual statement:

    "Hyperion [...] reaffirms unequivocally that [...] it has the worldwide exclusive right to distribute and sublicense AmigaOS on a standalone basis or bundled with hardware (OEM license), either on a physical medium (such as a ROM or DVD) or electronically (digital download)."

    For the sake of completeness, it might be worth pointing out a rather significant ommission in the quoted statement. There is no claim that Hyperion Entertainment has any supposed exclusive rights to distribute AmigaOS as part of software bundles. It strictly refers to hardware bundles or standalone versions only.

    Examples of software bundles would be the various Amiga Forever editions that have been sold for years and contain versions of AmigaOS. Furthermore, if the forementioned statement regarding exclusive rights were to be accurate, any offering that combines AmigaOS with another virtual (non-hardware) element, which could be as simple as a "checkmark" wallpaper, would not be affected...



    Thanks Andre,

    I know that you always try to remain fair (as opposed to my hot-headed approach).
    That IS a very good point.
    And if proven correct, it negates Cloanto's right to distribute ROMs.

    It also could be used as an argument excusing that messy situation of Hyperion's bundling of Workbench 1.3 with OS4.

    And, hopefully, you all understand that I'm not an apologist for Ben Herman's (in a choice between him and the Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side...I'd always favor team blue), BUT I'm trying not to let sentiment color my perceptions.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »05.01.18 - 18:52
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> There is no claim that Hyperion Entertainment has any supposed exclusive rights
    >> to distribute AmigaOS as part of software bundles. [...] Examples of software
    >> bundles would be the various Amiga Forever editions that have been sold for years
    >> and contain versions of AmigaOS. Furthermore, if the forementioned statement
    >> regarding exclusive rights were to be accurate, any offering that combines AmigaOS
    >> with another virtual (non-hardware) element, which could be as simple as a
    >> "checkmark" wallpaper, would not be affected...

    > That IS a very good point. And if proven correct, it negates Cloanto's right to distribute ROMs.

    Huh? How do you arrive at this idea from the quoted conclusion that Hyperion's license to bundle AmigaOS with other software might not be exclusive? How would this negate Cloanto's "right to distribute ROMs"?

    > It also could be used as an argument excusing that messy situation of Hyperion's
    > bundling of Workbench 1.3 with OS4.

    That's not how I read it.

    > in a choice between him and the Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side...I'd always favor team blue

    "Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side" is so last decade :-P
  • »05.01.18 - 20:07
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >>> There is no claim that Hyperion Entertainment has any supposed exclusive rights
    >>> to distribute AmigaOS as part of software bundles. [...] Examples of software
    >>> bundles would be the various Amiga Forever editions that have been sold for years
    >>> and contain versions of AmigaOS. Furthermore, if the forementioned statement
    >>> regarding exclusive rights were to be accurate, any offering that combines AmigaOS
    >>> with another virtual (non-hardware) element, which could be as simple as a
    >>> "checkmark" wallpaper, would not be affected...

    >> That IS a very good point. And if proven correct, it negates Cloanto's right to distribute ROMs.

    >Huh? How do you arrive at this idea from the quoted conclusion that Hyperion's license to bundle AmigaOS with other software might not be exclusive? How would this negate Cloanto's "right to distribute ROMs"?

    If Hyperion has the exclusive right to deliver AmigaOS with hardware...a ROM IS hardware, not just media.

    >> It also could be used as an argument excusing that messy situation of Hyperion's
    >> bundling of Workbench 1.3 with OS4.

    >That's not how I read it.

    IF they can prove they have the right to distribute AmigaOS variants (other than 3.1) with hardware, it at least negates the CDs that were shipped with hardware (a fairly high % I'd imagine).

    >> in a choice between him and the Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side...I'd always favor team blue

    >"Bill Buck/Genesi/MorphOS side" is so last decade :-P

    Well...that would actually bring me a LOT more up to date, as I'm still spending a lot of time hacking 6809 and 68K based hardware. ;-)

    Anyway, we've seen from posts quoting Herman's that indicated he thought his settlement granted him use of alternative ISAs.

    The question for me is this, is Hyperion's right to create new variants of AmigaOS limited to OS4 and above or is it anything beyond OS3.1?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »05.01.18 - 20:39
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If Hyperion has the exclusive right to deliver AmigaOS with hardware...a ROM IS hardware,
    > not just media.

    Alright, I was just thinking of ROM image files, not physical ROMs. But then, a ROM is just a storage medium, just like a CD or DVD (which also can contain ROM image files).

    > we've seen from posts quoting Herman's that indicated he thought his settlement granted
    > him use of alternative ISAs.

    Yes, and having read the settlement agreement myself, I think he is correct. Problem is that Hyperion doesn't own most of OS4 but the individual, non-paid developers do, who Hyperion likely just got an object code (PPC) license (as opposed to source code license) from.

    > is Hyperion's right to create new variants of AmigaOS limited to OS4 and above or is it
    > anything beyond OS3.1?

    I'm not sure about that, but seeing as Cloanto didn't put anything about Hyperion's OS3.1.x attempts in their "prayer for relief"...
  • »06.01.18 - 16:59
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >> is Hyperion's right to create new variants of AmigaOS limited to OS4 and above or is it
    >> anything beyond OS3.1?

    >I'm not sure about that, but seeing as Cloanto didn't put anything about Hyperion's OS3.1.x attempts in their >"prayer for relief"...

    Now that is interesting. So they don't even intend to address the gray areas.
    Then they might just win this.

    It will all come down to Ben's contention that he has a right to include early variants of Workbench bundled with his software. And I've seen no proof of that statement.

    Again, I have to wonder what the outcome of this all will be.

    Your analysis of this situation has been very helpful.
    No overtly emotional response, just research and thoughtful consideration.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.01.18 - 21:25
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Cloanto didn't put anything about Hyperion's OS3.1.x attempts in their "prayer for relief"

    > Now that is interesting.

    And it didn't become less interesting since I mentioned it in comments #12 and #56 ;-)
  • »06.01.18 - 21:54
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> Cloanto didn't put anything about Hyperion's OS3.1.x attempts in their "prayer for relief"

    > Now that is interesting.

    And it didn't become less interesting since I mentioned it in comments #12 and #56 ;-)


    Hmm...short term memory loss w/o pot, must be age. ;-)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.01.18 - 23:16
    Profile
  • rob
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 139 from 2008/7/22
    According to the description on his site, Jens' new Buddha IDE card will come with OS version 1.3, 2.1 and 3.1 licensed from Hyperion. This appears to expand upon the March 2013 license agreement which granted Individual Computers to include Kickstart 1.3 and 3.1 with accelerator cards for A500, A1000 and A2000 computers.

    https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/buddha-ide.html
  • »09.01.18 - 17:58
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    According to the description on his site, Jens' new Buddha IDE card will come with OS version 1.3, 2.1 and 3.1 licensed from Hyperion. This appears to expand upon the March 2013 license agreement which granted Individual Computers to include Kickstart 1.3 and 3.1 with accelerator cards for A500, A1000 and A2000 computers.

    https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/buddha-ide.html


    It seems piracy is only bad when Ben isn't the one doing it. Lest we also forget his C64 cracking ventures.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »09.01.18 - 20:37
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @rob

    That's interesting, thanks.

    Apparently (in the context of Cloanto's case against Hyperion) we are not only talking about past and present tense but also future products not even on the market yet. Does the fact that this is happening in Europe prevent Cloanto from using it as meaningful evidence in the *current* case?

    It almost appears as Hyperion has replaced their by now most certainly non-existent OS4 business with a scheme where they practically are selling Cloanto's *entire IP portfolio* to everyone and his dog without Cloanto's consent. Is there anything more of it they can sell? Any other Commodore stuff? Together with their Workbench trademark infringement, as well as them trying to register Cloanto's since long "AmigaForever" and "Workbench" trademarks, this sure shows the true colors of Hyperion Entertainment.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »09.01.18 - 20:47
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:

    It seems piracy is only bad when Ben isn't the one doing it. Lest we also forget his C64 cracking ventures.



    Once a pirate, always a pirate...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »09.01.18 - 20:48
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 868 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Looks like Amiga Inc have joined the party and filed for the Amiga name in europe.
  • »09.01.18 - 21:23
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    KennyR schrieb:
    Looks like Amiga Inc have joined the party and filed for the Amiga name in europe.


    Hahaha, zombie inc still able to play the party spoiler... The mess becomes even bigger. As I said multiple times: one of the best things of MorphOS is that it left "the name" beyond.
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »09.01.18 - 23:05
    Profile Visit Website
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 473 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Looks like Amiga Inc have joined the party and filed for the Amiga name in europe.

    They never really left this particular party as their current filing is for simply prolonging their existing registration of the EU mark.

    http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2017-09-00019-EN.html


    I'm more curious about who signed the paperwork, given that they deleted their representative well over a year ago.

    #6
  • »10.01.18 - 21:13
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Ben Hermans? ”If I can’t have it, nobody else should either?” ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »10.01.18 - 21:53
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 473 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Ben Hermans? ”If I can’t have it, nobody else should either?” ;-)


    From the euipo doc:

    Quote:

    Amiga Inc
    167 Madison Avenue, Suite 301
    New York, NY 10016


    Quote:

    C/o John Grzymala 167 Madison Ave #301

    Source


    I've said this SO many times, it's really become tiring.
    This is a maildrop Period. People have been there. We know this. It is called "fact".
    Grzymala != Amiga Inc. either in the present OR the past. He was the man in charge of the Kouri family trust, which is highly documented. It is also highly documented on to whom these duties fell after the death of Pentti Kouri. It is also why you see Itec LLC and their attorneys as opposer to Cloanto's uspto filing for workmark "Amiga" and NOT Amiga Inc. and their former attorney Darren B. Cohen.
    If you think this man (Grzymala) is really running a company called Amiga Inc., and/or handling paperwork for renewing a trademark then I've really wasted years posting facts about who is who in this drama.

    #6
  • »11.01.18 - 13:24
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2231 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    number6 wrote: I've really wasted years posting facts about who is who in this drama.

    #6


    QFT



    *runs*
  • »11.01.18 - 13:53
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 868 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    I believe that Amiga Inc have received a huge amount of funding and are just about ready to release AmigaOS 5.0 for the Commodore Smartphone. It will come with free blackjack and hookers and a totally orthogonally persistent vertically scaled customer experience metric. And Blackberry games courtesy of a 300+ strong Indian development team.

    Either that or Ben Hermans just prodded whoever was in charge of the Amiga Inc filing cabinet to keep to the settlement and renew the trademark because it gives him more leverage against Cloanto.
  • »11.01.18 - 15:54
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Stevo
    Posts: 888 from 2004/1/24
    From: #AmigaZeux
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    I believe that Amiga Inc have received a huge amount of funding and are just about ready to release AmigaOS 5.0 for the Commodore Smartphone. It will come with free blackjack and hookers and a totally orthogonally persistent vertically scaled customer experience metric. And Blackberry games courtesy of a 300+ strong Indian development team.

    Either that or Ben Hermans just prodded whoever was in charge of the Amiga Inc filing cabinet to keep to the settlement and renew the trademark because it gives him more leverage against Cloanto.


    I really dont understand all the fuzz and hate. It's a well known fact that that Hyperion (Ben Hermans and lesser gods) was/where and is/are capable to develop OS4 without any "help" of Amiga Inc. It made OS4 what it is today. OS4 is here to stay and no "Amiga" trademark suits will ever stop the momentum. Who cares about the whole "Amiga" name anyway?
    ---
    http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/logs/its_only_football.txt
  • »12.01.18 - 21:37
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Stevo wrote:
    I really dont understand all the fuzz and hate. It's a well known fact that that Hyperion (Ben Hermans and lesser gods) was/where and is/are capable to develop OS4 without any "help" of Amiga Inc. It made OS4 what it is today. OS4 is here to stay and no "Amiga" trademark suits will ever stop the momentum. Who cares about the whole "Amiga" name anyway?



    Who cares?

    1. Colanto
    2. Hyperion Entertainment
    3. Amiga Inc.
    4. Individual Computers
    5. Probably AmigaKit and A-Eon, and a few others as well.

    Edit: Regarding your assumption that Hyperion (Ben Hermans ...) is/are capable to develop OS4 without any help, I beg to differ. IMHO, Hyperion Entertainment has NEVER been capable of developing OS4, alone, or with the several volunteer programmers who have spent hundreds, or thousands of hours coding it without pay, and the very few programmers, who have been paid (or partially paid), to code OS4. When was OS4.2 supposed to be finished? Is anyone even working on completing OS4.2 anymore? Seems that the only work being completed any more are updates from programmers being paid by A-Eon/AmigaKit.

    [ Edited by amigadave 12.01.2018 - 15:52 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »12.01.18 - 23:45
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1914 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    Quote:

    Stevo wrote:

    I really dont understand all the fuzz and hate. It's a well known fact that that Hyperion (Ben Hermans and lesser gods) was/where and is/are capable to develop OS4 without any "help" of Amiga Inc. It made OS4 what it is today. OS4 is here to stay and no "Amiga" trademark suits will ever stop the momentum. Who cares about the whole "Amiga" name anyway?





    Lol, Hyperion has nothing to do with OS4.1 and where it is today. Near ALL driver support and the look of it are done by 3rd party. The X5000 and A1222 are still not complete, and the 1222 isnt being sold because of the slow ass pace of them! Its a sad stupid proof of incompetence and the Amiga community seems to just stick to them and praise them, I dont get it.
    Powermac Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 PCI-X (Registration #1894)
    Powerbook 1.67GHZ
    Powermac Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 PCIE (Registration #6130)
    A4000T CSPPC, Mediator
    Need Repairs, upgrades or a recap in the USA? Visit my website at http://www.acill.com
  • »19.01.18 - 11:17
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    stephen_robinson
    Posts: 746 from 2007/4/22
    Hmm, so what you just said was:

    Quote:

    Hyperion has nothing to do with OS4.1


    Quote:

    The Terrible state of OS4.1 is all due to Hyperion



    I find your lack of logic disturbing, Captain.
  • »21.01.18 - 12:08
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2231 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    stephen_robinson wrote:

    I find your lack of logic disturbing, Captain.


    On any other topic you might have a point, but this is about HYPErion/BunnyHormons so "logic" works in different ways.
  • »21.01.18 - 13:35
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Acill wrote:
    Lol, Hyperion has nothing to do with OS4.1 and where it is today. Near ALL driver support and the look of it are done by 3rd party. The X5000 and A1222 are still not complete, and the 1222 isnt being sold because of the slow ass pace of them! Its a sad stupid proof of incompetence and the Amiga community seems to just stick to them and praise them, I dont get it.


    X5000 & A1222 drivers??? I'm still waiting for a working driver for my X1000 on board Ethernet adapter! In addition to the mythical AmigaOS4.2, that I strongly doubt will ever be completed "as described when the X1000 was first released, or when my particular X1000 was produced and sold to me". No one at Hyperion Entertainment, or working for/with them, appears to have the time/skill/knowledge, to finish all (or even most) of the features promised for inclusion as part of AmigaOS4.2. As much as I like Trevor and Matthew at A-Eon, I think they have a responsibility to complete a working driver for the X1000's on board Ethernet adapter, before moving on to their later motherboard designs.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »21.01.18 - 22:49
    Profile