I am very impressed by how well morphos functions. I can read mail, browse,safely, write technical reports via TeX, see youtubes, listen to music vie Jukebox, etc. i can also print anything I virtually want except for webpages, because it requires ps.

I would be utterly happy if there were some program like LibreOffice to read and write document files in standard doc or docx formats as well as powerpoint and excel. Also Mplayer seems to throw up errors with most of my dvds, but I can live with that.

Is there any news about an office like program. Calimero, for all its virtues, does not cut the mustard.

RD

Hi.

There is AFAIK not _one_ office program that offers everything.
But there is:
- FinalWriter whcih can be used as the '97 variant and it is being actively developed.
- AmigaWriter (m68k)
- TurboCalc (m68k)
- Ignition (unfortunately no native MorphOS port, http://ignition-amiga.sourceforge.net)
- MUIBase (http://muibase.sourceforge.net/welcome)

LibreOffice is such a huge beast that I find it unlikely it will every come to any of the Amiga OS flavours.
And even if, to keep it maintained to the current LibreOffice developement is another thing altogether.

I would rather like to see LibreOffice document support for existing Amiga programs like FinalWriter, etc.



Manfred

Quote:

There is "ongoing OS4 port" by "Friedens" but just screenshots displayed, and alleged beta testing.
Its likely it will be 3.5 by time porting started and it will be sold.
Will there be an option for MOS/AROS port is unknown.

Libre is a massive task to port, but its not huge compared to competitors.
Its fast, it offers also Presentation tools, has its own ODT open format of documents
and is FREE and OPEN SOURCE office solution.

In Word processor, or any field, now obsolete 3.5 offers way more then updated 90s
Amiga software. While it would be good to have updated Amiga software, its license
bond closed source and owners mostly gone under.

So in reality, even being huge task, Libre is likely way to go forward,
and best one we do have.

Quote:
Presentation, OK. There is nothing in Amiga world.

But the general question is, for what purpose would we need office programs.
And do we need all the features that LibreOffice offers.

I mean, writing some letters, article, even with hundreds of pages, if easily doable with FinalWriter.
And has been done in the past.
To completely honest, despite the document format exchangeability, MS Office from '97 would probably still suffice completely today for the majority of tasks.


Manfred

Quote:

Dont go there, its simple feature wise: every aspect of an app has improved since 90s,
from GUI, spellecheck, speed of scroll and reformats etc.Also opening large documents with pictures, inserting charts, tables etc.
Its even more visible in spreedsheet area with both complex formulas and ability to do various charts
and re-use them in Word processors/DTP, and as you say, in presentations, sadly Amiga never paid much attention to it - even it had Scala and now Hoolywood.

Since I prefer "old school look" I do use Libre 3.5 and Office 2003 with DOCX support to do all jobs done
and i agree pure text is doable. That level wise I could do text in ASCII and just reformat them in an word editor. But publications - be it home or bussiness, have grown in sizes, contents and complexity.

PageStream used to be great for real DTP but something stopped with 5.x development. I hear 68k version is better then MOS and OS4. Would buy that since it is modern and feature rich app, but they charge heavily to try.

Quote:
It certainly has improved.
But to a large degree it has improved on MS's wallet for selling updates.
I assert that the core features of spreadsheet and word processing have not improved to a large extend. Certainly for the hardware improvements (more memory, faster CPU) you see adaptions simply because things were suddenly possible which were not previously.


Manfred

Quote:

Then we should just all use 'ed' instead of any office type software, right? That mentality is a part of the problem. "we dont need it". Actually it would be nice to do things with an office suite. A piece of software that can open documents and whatnot from various other pieces of software from Windows and/or Linux. Something available on other platforms that you're familiar with and know that it can interchange when you load it up on your MorphOS system.

I use LibreOffice all the time on my Linux box, use it to edit docs from work that I create with MS Word, even excel. My budget is all in LibreOffice Calc.

"Oh well you can do it in xxyy app under MorphOS or under AmigaOS 3.x app", but really, can you? Can I save it and open it back up with MS Office or do I need to save it as a special csv file (if it even does that) and then import and edit it under Windows etc?

Its time to break that mold of trying to do things the Amiga way or the old way..its archaic.

Quote:

Well, maybe I'm the wrong person for this discussion.

In fact I'm using a text editor to write LaTeX or Markdown to put together some texts. I hate WYSIWYG, because it's usually super resource hungry and slow and what you see in the end is still not what you get.
People who wrote their diploma on MS Word begun to hate it. Because it's a piece of shit.
Spreadsheet are for sure useful. And I'm certainly use those, too. But I'm far away from using any of the feature which LibreCalc or Excel offers.

And I'm not saying I don't want LibreOffice. I'm saying that it is a huge task to port and maintain such a beast. I claim that a port of LibreOffice is either very slow or even not useable at all on PPC hardware.
I'd rather take small steps and improve software that's already there.


Manfred

Quote:

There is no one and no way to improve it that much. Cinnamon is sweet, but a toy, unable
to edit and handle properly anything a bit more complex. Page Stream is most professional,
but then again is expensive DTP tool not for everyone.

In my own needs example:
Translations, students papers, my own papers and presnetations etc. isnt anythings strange - but a need on to do list ... and can be all well be done in Libre. On anything. ARM Android phone, any Linux box out there,
Windows. Its really open.

A bugfixed 3.x suite is tested, well enough feature-wise and not SO complex as you think
to creating real 3 package replacement modern suite of any kind (e.g. using CW and Ignition
as template, and PointRider as PPT viewer). PPC port exists for Linux. I use it everyday on x1000
and is only way to make monolith a bit productive.

There is even half of Libre I dont use, but some people will find it exciting and needed.
(I believe Draw is part of 3.x and Math and Base are added since 4.x and present in 5.x.
I would vote for 3.x port and adding Math and Base later).

Draw A vector graphics editor and diagramming tool similar to Microsoft Visio and comparable in features to early versions of CorelDRAW. It provides connectors between shapes, which are available in a range of line styles and facilitate building drawings such as flowcharts. It also includes features similar to desktop publishing software such as Scribus and Microsoft Publisher. It is also able to act as a PDF-file editor.


LibreOffice 4.0 Math An application designed for creating and editing mathematical formulae. The application uses a variant of XML for creating formulas, as defined in the OpenDocument specification. These formulas can be incorporated into other documents in the LibreOffice suite, such as those created by Writer or Calc, by embedding the formulas into the document

LibreOffice 4.0 Base Base A database management program, similar to Microsoft Access. LibreOffice Base allows the creation and management of databases, preparation of forms and reports that provide end users easy access to data. Like Access, it can be used to create small embedded databases that are stored with the document files (using Java-based HSQLDB as its storage engine), and for more demanding tasks it can also be used as a front-end for various database systems, including Access databases (JET), ODBC/JDBC data sources, and MySQL, MariaDB, PostgreSQL or Microsoft Access.[9][23]

Work is ongoing to transition the embedded storage engine from HSQLDB to the C++ based Firebird SQL backend. Firebird has been included in LibreOffice as an experimental option since LibreOffice 4.2.



[ Edited by vox 04.06.2017 - 22:22 ]

Quote:
Well, there is Hollywood Designer. It's pretty capable and the presentations can get compiled to a stand alone program.
For replaying .ppt there is pointrider (IIRC) which was surprisingly good when I tested it soem years ago.

Quote:


The main problem for me is interchangeability. I actually used Amiga word processors back in the day to make fairly compex documents for university. Recently I did pretty complex layouts with current MS Word. There are quite nice to use functions in it that make a DTP program obsolete in quite some cases. But as an old schooler I still prefer a word processor for easy text and actual writing/editig (correction mode is very much used by me for that) and additionally DTP program if a compex layout is needed. I use a rather old version of Indesign but would happily trade it for a current version of Pagestream - what has happend to that? It was shown in Neuss, but no news since then...

Quote:
I was surprised to see it quite usable on PPC! I actually use it on my PB G4 (on the Linux side) when I am travelling by train, as the PB is my only laptop. On my G5 it just feels as fast as on x86-hardware, which does not surprise me 'cause you don't need a quadcore for text processing and light LibreCalc usage either.

But I agree that improving existing software would be the best solution. Or porting something like Abiword which should be more than enough for 'common' text processing needs. It works, it has good import filters and according to the project page it even has portability in mind. IMHO porting LibreOffice is just a massive waste of time and a huge maintainance burden. The codebase is growing and changing at a fast pace. Also getting more and more dependance on OpenGL I read - does not make it easier for MorphOS (and Amiga OS 4).

I tried Cinnamon Writer which works well, if you stay on the MorphOS-side. Unfortunately importing .docx thrashes most of the formatting... what a pity.

Quote:

What ever we get on MorphOS (and AmigaOS4 as well), needs to be able to import and export in formats that make it usable for exchanging documents & spreadsheets with others who are using Windows, MacOSX, and Linux computers. That is more important to me than having all the other bells & whistle features available on other platforms. After format exchange is implemented, then the programmers can work on adding extra features.

That is my opinion anyway, regarding what priorities should be placed first.

I do agree AmigaDave. The possibility to read or import standard (doc or docx) painlessly and exporting to possibly another format is what is sorely missing. I do like FinalWriter and being able to save files as rtf is useful, but otherwise the multitude of individual programs for morphos do not integrate well with one another and, let us face it, are not standard formats. That is why I raised the subject of LibreOffice.

RD

-----/
Quote:

If not LibreOffice, then like amigadave said..something on the MorphOS side that imports from other platforms and can export/save as the other platform. ie..read/write .docx.

Quote:

OK, you got me.
I remember I was using OpenOffice on my PowerBook G4 when OS X was installed.


Ignition has IMO a lot of potential and it's open-source.
The specs for the document formats for LibreOffice as well as Microsoft Office publicly available.
It should be possible to do something on that front.


Manfred

The way I get round the problem on morphos is to go to an online document converter and change the doc or docx to pdf. (Same with other formats) Then i can easily read it with vpdf and print it out as needed. RD


Quote:

> I'm far away from using any of the feature which LibreCalc or Excel offers.

;-)

> I claim that a port of LibreOffice is either very slow or even not useable at all
> on PPC hardware.

LibreOffice 5.2 works fine on my PPC hardware running Leopard.

Quote:

I was using (or actually are using) NeoOffice. Which is a more native version of Open-/LibreOffice for Mac.
But on my PPC hardware I remember that scrolling large Writer or Calc documents was quite slow.
Well, UI rendering in general wasn't as snappy as it should have been.


Manfred

> I believe Draw is part of 3.x and Math and Base are added since 4.x and present in 5.x.

Draw and Math have been there since 1.0, Base was added in 2.0.

Quote:

Then why even load it up in MorphOS? Just print it from your phone. Dont need morphos if you need to jump thru hoops.

*** Warning - long a$$, rant mode post below :) ***

I think the focus on Word / Excel etc formats might be part of the problem in the discussion. Personally I don't use / care about them too much. IMO focusing on the work I need to do and not a particular format or program is what _I_ need to do.

I use WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 formats and they interchange just fine. For that Amiga wordprocessors and spreadsheets work just fine. Since I don't particularly like Word and Excel, WordPerfect and Quattro Pro on the PC does what I need. For DTP Pagestream or even ProPage are more powerful than I need and with a Postscript printer I don't care about taking it to a PC.

For presentations, as silly as it may sound, I still use AmigaVision Pro for a lot of it. Sure there's no way to transfer it to other platforms but who cares? It works just fine on an Amiga to do presentations, the interface is drop dead simple, I can pull material from many sources. After all this time it is powerful and flexible enough to do everything I need it to do.

For databases I still use SuperBase - in large part because of the image field type. I never understood why MUIbase doesn't have that. Fully relational and the programming language is damn powerful - you can make SuperBase jump through any hoop you want. If I REALLY want it on a PC for some reason, that's what I have SuperBase for Windows for.

For graphics work, there's a ridiculous abundance of options on AmigaOS. Sure there aren't plug-ins so you have to do the fancy stuff by hand and it's "a bit" slower but I still get there and what's available is fast enough for what I need to do. Personally the interface on the Amiga programs are so much simpler, faster and more intuitive for me. Not having to deal with menus nested 27 layers deep is real nice.

For video work, Lightwave with plug-ins and the Flyer or Draco with MovieShop 5 does what I need. Yes, Amiga Lightwave is much slower but I still get there. I might not be able to do HD video but the Flyer is so darn fast it's nuts. Throw Millennium on a Flyer system and you've got a good system. MovieShop 5 is no slouch either.

And let's not forget the wonders of ARexx. I can replicate a lot of those graphics plug-ins and have just as much one button access to the features. Tying everything together with ARexx works wonders. I sure wish it was updated to latest REXX features but as it is, it's still the bee's knees :)

I don't get the speed of the newest products on the other platforms and the latest features may be lacking. But honestly, how many people use more than 10% of the features of the modern programs? And again, ARexx makes up for a lot of it.

I get the features that _I_ need and platform transferability that _I_ need. Most of it works on MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 and for the rest 3.1 still works :) LibreOffice, Microsoft Office, etc compatibility is possible with some creativity.

That's a long winded way of saying that, for me, I don't care if LibreOffice never comes to Amiga-ish operating systems. Of course YMMV :)

> there's no way to transfer it to other platforms but who cares?

Anyone who needs to transfer it to another platform ;-)

> how many people use more than 10% of the features of the modern programs?

That's irrelevant if the particular feature required is among the other 90% :-)

> LibreOffice, Microsoft Office, etc compatibility is possible with some creativity.

I doubt that, except for very basic documents.

I'm waiting for "I don't use computers to create documents, I prefer a pen or pencil".

Hey, I use Office365, and pay a monthly subscription fee to do so.
For Word and Excel (I have no real use for the rest of it unless I'm required to use PowerPoint).

And no, I don't find LibreOffice to be an adequate substitute.

SO, no matter what solution gets dropped on us, I'll still require a PC (or a Mac).

Its not that I am overly fond of Microsoft, but as in the past, I've always tried to use the proper tools for any job I am doing.
And this is the best tool I've seen thus far.

So...if 8/10ths is good enough for you, go for it.

Under MorphOS, all I require is a decent editor, because for something more complex...

FinalWriter, and especially Ignition, StarAm Plan (even though not public domain) I would hate to see those huge efforts wasted.


Manfred

Quote:

The rest of your rant is irrelevant. Well, really all of your rant is irrelevant to everyone except you.

What is the point of using a word processor or spreadsheet, or any other parts of an office suite, just for yourself that you can't share your work with 99% of the rest of the population (without jumping through a bunch of hoops to convert your work), and also you are not able to import anything from the rest of the population into your proprietary office suite software? I guess that is okay if you are a hermit who never has contact with other humans and doesn't care about the rest of the human race, but most of us are not that way, and we want to easily open documents and presentations from our friends and family, simply by clicking on them within our office suite of choice on MorphOS.

I dislike Word and preferred WordPerfect, just like you, but even on the PC in 2017, some Word users might have problems with WordPerfect documents, if the user of WordPerfect doesn't choose a Word format to save their work, before sending it to someone else. As great as you and I think WordPerfect is/was, IIRC, it is dead, and 99.999% of the world uses Word, or Open Office/Libre Office and sends documents in the doc, or docx format.

So, this discussion on exchange formats is very important and appropriate, for almost all MorphOS users, and not in any way part of a problem.