Hints and rumoured sightings of the very shy 3.10
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    NewSense
    Posts: 1230 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK/GB
    Likewise, PageStream 5 (if stable/reliable) would be great news, as would OWB without the JavaScript Engine running amok every so often.

    I'm sure that PageStream v5.x for MorphOS would be something that we would have to pay Deron Kazmaier for, as he is the copyright holder of the software, unless some code deal has been done with him, if he's not interested in continuing its progression - though I'd hope he would, as he obviously knows the program's intricacies better than anyone.

    That's not forgetting Isochronous integration, improved scanning features, and hopefully the Beta Printing will have become integrated as well as all the other additional features that are intended for 3.10, and even if they don't quite make it for 3.10, then hopefully they weill soon afterwards, which would still be OK by me, and of course I'll be putting my money where my fingers go - into MorphOS itsef wherever I can, within my spare budget - thanks guys - I'm looking forward to this latest update, sounds really great. 8-D
    MacMini 1.5GHz,10,2,64MB VRAM,1GB,Airport, Bluetooth,A1016 Keyboard,T-RB22 Mouse,DVD-RW-DL+CD-RW,Iomega MiniMax,Belkin 6 port 3 x Firewire/3 x, USB2, MorphOS 3.12, Mac OSX 10.4/10.5, A1138+A1139 PwrBk MOS v3.12,Model 5,8/5,9, & PowerMac G5 2.3GHz(DP)
  • »04.01.17 - 19:15
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > hopefully the Beta Printing will have become integrated

    That's the third planned improvement I knew of but had forgotten about yesterday ;-) Thanks for the reminder.
  • »04.01.17 - 22:42
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4957 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Hmm... You guys don't expect much. ;-)

    Does all that have to be ready just to jump a revision number?

    And 2D and 3D acceleration are no longer seperate issues as the R500 was the last series supporting 2D primitives.
    From there out, each successive series brings its own evolutionary changes.
    So you are more likely to get this stuff progressively, rather than all at once.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »04.01.17 - 23:33
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    NewSense
    Posts: 1230 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK/GB
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > hopefully the Beta Printing will have become integrated

    That's the third planned improvement I knew of but had forgotten about yesterday ;-) Thanks for the reminder.

    That will be a Fantastic addition to our OS, muchas gracias to all involved, specifcially 'Zukow' I suppose. 8-D
    MacMini 1.5GHz,10,2,64MB VRAM,1GB,Airport, Bluetooth,A1016 Keyboard,T-RB22 Mouse,DVD-RW-DL+CD-RW,Iomega MiniMax,Belkin 6 port 3 x Firewire/3 x, USB2, MorphOS 3.12, Mac OSX 10.4/10.5, A1138+A1139 PwrBk MOS v3.12,Model 5,8/5,9, & PowerMac G5 2.3GHz(DP)
  • »05.01.17 - 00:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2706 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Hmm... You guys don't expect much. ;-)

    Does all that have to be ready just to jump a revision number?


    Well, with a waiting time of 566 days since the 3.9 release, we have passed the 554 days it took for the (huge) 2.7 -> 3.0 release to get here, and we are currently travelling slowly towards the 1157 days it took for the (monumental) 1.4.5 -> 2.0 release, which is currently the only remaining unmatched waiting time, the all-time high!

    So yes, I expect the next release to be somewhere between huge and monumental... ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.01.17 - 00:47
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 56 from 2016/3/9
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    - improved graphics drivers (including improved Radeon HD support)


    Is it reasonable to expect that, along with X5000 support, the improved Radeon HD support will include some of the higher end (at least in the Amiga world) video cards that can be installed in an X5000? I'm talking about cards like the R9 270X and such.

    I don't realistically expect support for so many cards but hopefully the support for more cards will continue to expand.
  • »05.01.17 - 06:48
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 452 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Quote:

    Pgovotsos schrieb:

    Is it reasonable to expect that, along with X5000 support, the improved Radeon HD support will include some of the higher end (at least in the Amiga world) video cards that can be installed in an X5000? I'm talking about cards like the R9 270X and such.

    I doubt it. Radeon HD cards are r600-series, which is AFAIK an evolutionary step from the r500-series already supported (and now getting improved). The R9 270X/370X are GCN1-series. Rather a new design than an evolutionary step.

    It took more than a year in Linuxland for proper support. And by devs which are directly employed at AMD... Recently AMD released GCN4-cards which are run by an an entierly different driver. ;-) My uneducated guess is that framebuffer-support will be pracitial in a shorter period of time, but don't expect halfway decent 2D/3D-acceleration anytime soon for cards newer than r600-series.

    But in my opinion that doesn't matter much. No software here on MorphOS which could utilize a good r500/r600-card to the full with just one CPU-core. ;-)

    Much more interesting would be utilizing the UVD-unit (Universal Video Decoder) which is present from r600-series on. This unit can do high-res MPEG4/VC1/H264-decoding in hardware. This would allow decent videoplayback, even on single-core machines.

    [ Editiert durch ernsteiswuerfel 05.01.2017 - 15:43 ]
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.17 / Void Linux / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.1]
  • »05.01.17 - 15:33
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Is it reasonable to expect that, along with X5000 support, the improved
    >> Radeon HD support will include some of the higher end (at least in the
    >> Amiga world) video cards that can be installed in an X5000? I'm talking
    >> about cards like the R9 270X and such.

    > I doubt it. [...] But in my opinion that doesn't matter much. No software
    > here on MorphOS which could utilize a good r500/r600-card to the full
    > with just one CPU-core.

    I think the question about support for GCN-based graphics cards in MorphOS aims at the possibility of using the X5000 with OS4/MorphOS dual boot with just one single graphics card installed. If graphics card support is not sufficiently overlapping between the two OS, two different graphics cards will have to be installed.
  • »05.01.17 - 16:45
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2706 from 2003/2/24
    It would be strange to release a MorphOS version with X5000 support without supporting the GFX cards they are usually sold with.

    Supporting any other GFX cards than these should come much lower down in the priority list.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.01.17 - 17:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > It would be strange to release a MorphOS version with X5000 support
    > without supporting the GFX cards they are usually sold with.

    Sam460, anyone? ;-)
    (Mere framebuffer support obviously isn't what Pgovotsos asked for.)
  • »05.01.17 - 18:28
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  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 977 from 2004/9/23
    Quote:

    ernsteiswuerfel wrote:

    Much more interesting would be utilizing the UVD-unit (Universal Video Decoder) which is present from r600-series on. This unit can do high-res MPEG4/VC1/H264-decoding in hardware. This would allow decent videoplayback, even on single-core machines.



    For five minutes or so. Then people start screeming "Why is there no h265 support? That is standard!"

    And for the fun. Yes. h264 is getting more and more obsolete as h265 HEVC saves a huge amount of space. In most cases about 40-50% less data.

    Will need to update my Kodi hardware in 2017, too.

    [ Edited by geit 05.01.2017 - 19:02 ]
  • »05.01.17 - 18:56
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 452 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Quote:

    geit schrieb:
    For five minutes or so. Then people start screeming "Why is there no h265 support? That is standard!"

    Probably you are right. :-/

    Quote:

    geit schrieb:
    And for the fun. Yes. h264 is getting more and more obsolete as h265 HEVC saves a huge amount of space. In most cases about 40-50% less data.

    Well, in that case MorphOS should directly go for the GCN4-cards with full h265/HEVC and 10bit HDR support. :-D
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.17 / Void Linux / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.1]
  • »06.01.17 - 09:30
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1319 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    geit wrote:
    For five minutes or so. Then people start screeming "Why is there no h265 support? That is standard!"

    Hand aufs Herz: It is not the standard and will not be for a while. We all know there are technically superior alternatives, yet JPEG still rules the Internet of Images(tm).

    Quote:

    And for the fun. Yes. h264 is getting more and more obsolete as h265 HEVC saves a huge amount of space. In most cases about 40-50% less data.

    Yes, similar to those JPEG alternatives I mentioned.

    For high quality content utilizing 4K resolutions or HDR, HEVC is unavoidable, of course. But these represent a tiny fraction of the available content and this is not going to drastically change within a year or two.
  • »06.01.17 - 10:34
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1193 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    But these represent a tiny fraction of the available content and this is not going to drastically change within a year or two.

    So when 3.10 is released, everyone has switched already?

    ...just kidding about the release date (I hope...) :-P
  • »06.01.17 - 22:36
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4957 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    I don't expect to see the GCN cards addressed anytime soon.
    The next series would likely be the R600s.
    That should include everything from the HD 2400Pro to the 3870.
    After that the R700s should be next, with the HD 4450 to 4890.
    Then there are the cards from the HD 5450 to 6970.

    AFTER those, then it would make sense to tackle the GCN cards.

    When we get to the R7, R9, and RX cards, we will have a base of earlier cards that will be fully supported (unlike the jump in OS4 from the R200 series to the GCN cards).

    [ Edited by Jim 06.01.2017 - 18:09 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.01.17 - 00:07
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > R600s [...] should include everything from the HD 2400Pro to the 3870.

    Wouldn't this be HD 2350 to HD 4290?

    > R700s [...] with the HD 4450 to 4890

    Wouldn't this start from HD 4350?

    > Then there are the cards from the HD 5450 to 6970.

    R800 is from HD 5450 to HD 5970, HD 6750 to HD 6770, HD 7350, HD 8350, R5 210 to R5 220.
    R900 is from HD 6450 to HD 6990 (except HD 6750 to HD 6770, see above), HD 7450 to HD 7670, HD 8400, R5 220 to R5 235X.

    > When we get to the R7, R9, and RX cards, we will have a base of earlier cards
    > that will be fully supported

    GCN-based cards numbered lower than R7 are from HD 7730 to HD 7990, HD 8570 to HD 8970, R5 240 to R5 435.
  • »07.01.17 - 02:08
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 56 from 2016/3/9
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> Is it reasonable to expect that, along with X5000 support, the improved
    >> Radeon HD support will include some of the higher end (at least in the
    >> Amiga world) video cards that can be installed in an X5000? I'm talking
    >> about cards like the R9 270X and such.

    I think the question about support for GCN-based graphics cards in MorphOS aims at the possibility of using the X5000 with OS4/MorphOS dual boot with just one single graphics card installed. If graphics card support is not sufficiently overlapping between the two OS, two different graphics cards will have to be installed.


    Thank you Andreas. Yes, that is my reason for asking.
  • »07.01.17 - 04:59
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4957 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Yeah...I'm pretty familiar with that info Andreas, I had to tear it apart in order to figure out what cores were used.
    I did skip the 4350, I'll have to ask Bigfoot if he wants one.
    He has some of the R600 and R700 cards he needs to start with, and I have a few more here that need to be shipped, along with a few R800 cards.
    I'll have the first of those out in about a week, with the rest shipped before the end of January.

    Mark should have the needed representatives from the R600 to R900 series' before Spring (there is a HUGE delay shipping into South Africa), and I'm sure he will work his way through the cards progressively.

    But I doubt that they will hold up the release of 3.10 until all the cards without acceleration are updated.

    And I doubt he will tackle the GCN cards until he has these legacy cards working.
    But I'd assume they are eventual targets.

    I have all the cards I think are needed up to the HD6970 (I'm not considering the 6990 as its a dual gpu solution) except for a few I'm still sourcing.

    Frankly, there are some nice solutions available in the 5000-6000 series, in particular the 5670, 5750, 6670, and 6750.
    These are all relatively low power cards that have more power than we really need.
    That's one of the reasons I'm in no hurry to see the GCN cards supported, everything after the 4000 series is frighteningly powerful.



    [ Edited by Jim 07.01.2017 - 12:19 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.01.17 - 05:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2706 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    I don't expect to see the GCN cards addressed anytime soon.
    The next series would likely be the R600s.
    That should include everything from the HD 2400Pro to the 3870.
    After that the R700s should be next, with the HD 4450 to 4890.
    Then there are the cards from the HD 5450 to 6970.

    AFTER those, then it would make sense to tackle the GCN cards.

    When we get to the R7, R9, and RX cards, we will have a base of earlier cards that will be fully supported (unlike the jump in OS4 from the R200 series to the GCN cards).


    IMHO it makes the most sense to start with whatever shipped with the X5000. Then support earlier/later generations after that. I mean, if there are several unsupported GPU families, why not start with whatever people needs/wants? And will anyone really need/want R600 cards at all if newer ones are better and easier ot obtain? What's the point in that?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
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  • »07.01.17 - 09:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> R700s [...] with the HD 4450 to 4890

    >> Wouldn't this start from HD 4350?

    > I did skip the 4350

    Then the next higher one would be the HD 4550. At least I couldn't find any info about HD 4450.

    > I have a few more here that need to be shipped, along with a few R800 cards. I'll
    > have the first of those out in about a week, with the rest shipped before the end
    > of January. Mark should have the needed representatives from the R600 to R800
    > series' before Spring (there is a HUGE delay shipping into South Africa)

    Thanks for your support.
  • »07.01.17 - 10:38
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4957 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    You are right, it is a 4550.
    And as to support, it was something I could do, I`m not looking for any credit.
    I am just trying to support the endeavor of a friend.
    And the cards are easier to obtain here than in South Africa.

    I just wanted to help defray the costs Mark was facing.
    After all, had anyone really thought about the shear number of cards that currently need accelerated drivers?
    You can not really expect the guy to buy dozens of video cards AND then do all the creative work, can you?

    And as to the repeated calls for a driver for the HD 7750, you will have one...eventually.
    Frankly, I would be happy refitting an X5000 with an X1950XTX video card, if I could just get current MorphOS support for the X50000 itself.

    And those earlier cards I mention should easily be able to match the 7750 as we are soon to be somewhat CPU bound when it comes to graphics performance.

    Think about it, if you were a SAM owner, would you want to spend $150 on an HD 7750 when you could get an earlier card for $20-30?

    It's rumored (and I have not asked) that Frank and Mark started the SAM460 port with X1300 video cards until they obtained 4650 cards.
    That would be a cool card to have, and I am sure there are plenty of X1000 owners that would have loved accelerated drivers for the card that shipped with their systems.

    My point is, the GCN cards will happen, but throwing in your two cents with this "it ought to be done now to the exclusion of the earlier cards" crap isn't`going to affect the approach Mark is pursuing.


    [ Edited by Jim 08.01.2017 - 09:50 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.01.17 - 18:08
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4957 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    I don't expect to see the GCN cards addressed anytime soon.
    The next series would likely be the R600s.
    That should include everything from the HD 2400Pro to the 3870.
    After that the R700s should be next, with the HD 4450 to 4890.
    Then there are the cards from the HD 5450 to 6970.

    AFTER those, then it would make sense to tackle the GCN cards.

    When we get to the R7, R9, and RX cards, we will have a base of earlier cards that will be fully supported (unlike the jump in OS4 from the R200 series to the GCN cards).


    IMHO it makes the most sense to start with whatever shipped with the X5000. Then support earlier/later generations after that. I mean, if there are several unsupported GPU families, why not start with whatever people needs/wants? And will anyone really need/want R600 cards at all if newer ones are better and easier ot obtain? What's the point in that?


    Actually, a Radeon HD6970 outperforms an HD7750, and earlier cards like the HD5750 are not far behind the 7750, while they can be had at a fraction of the cost.

    As to the R600s, I have one in reserve here for myself, so yeah, I guess a few might find those cards interesting.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.01.17 - 18:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > if you were a SAM owner, would you want to spend $150 on an HD 7750 when you
    > could get an earlier card for $20-30?

    If I was a Sam460 owner then this would certainly be the case because I wanted to also run OS4 with a 3D-supported graphics card. Thus, I would of course spend the surcharge (just found a new HD 7750 on eBay Germany for 88 EUR (= 93 USD) and a used one for 25 EUR (= 26 USD)) for a 3D-supported GCN-based card instead of buying a cheaper pre-GCN card unsupported in terms of 3D.

    >> IMHO it makes the most sense to start with whatever shipped with the X5000.
    >> Then support earlier/later generations after that.

    > throwing in your two cents with this "it ought to be done now to the exclusion of
    > the earlier cards" crap

    Supporting earlier cards later on wouldn't equal exclusion. And I think takemehomegrandma has a point.
  • »07.01.17 - 21:10
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Radeon HD6970 outperforms an HD7750, and earlier cards like the HD5750
    > are not far behind the 7750, while they can be had at a fraction of the cost.

    Current best price on eBay Germany for used card:

    HD 5750: 33 EUR (= 35 USD)
    HD 6970: 99 EUR (= 104 USD)
    HD 7750: 25 EUR (= 26 USD)
  • »07.01.17 - 21:43
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4957 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > if you were a SAM owner, would you want to spend $150 on an HD 7750 when you
    > could get an earlier card for $20-30?

    If I was a Sam460 owner then this would certainly be the case because I wanted to also run OS4 with a 3D-supported graphics card. Thus, I would of course spend the surcharge (just found a new HD 7750 on eBay Germany for 88 EUR (= 93 USD) and a used one for 25 EUR (= 26 USD)) for a 3D-supported GCN-based card instead of buying a cheaper pre-GCN card unsupported in terms of 3D.

    >> IMHO it makes the most sense to start with whatever shipped with the X5000.
    >> Then support earlier/later generations after that.

    > throwing in your two cents with this "it ought to be done now to the exclusion of
    > the earlier cards" crap

    Supporting earlier cards later on wouldn't equal exclusion. And I think takemehomegrandma has a point.


    You would.
    But then, how much time have either of you spent using OS4?
    Until recently most Amiga software relied on composting, and they still managed to get fairly decent results.

    Most of the cards I've mentioned work fine under OS4.
    And like I said before, I'd settle for an R500 card in an X5000 right now.
    Then again, I'd primarily be running MorphOS or Linux, rarely OS4.

    Now IF we could use two Radaeon cards simultaneously...
    I'd like to have an HD Radeon PCIe card and a Radeon 9200 PCI card running simultaneously on two or three displays.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.01.17 - 22:13
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